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      06-20-2008, 04:19 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
You've mentioned this a couple of times - as an opinion.

Do you have anything that supports your position? Experience? An article or paper somewhere? Anecdotal data? Anything?

Bruce
Bruce,

Anything I comment on is usually based on experience and a bit of logic when I am guessing about something. I wish I could give you written evidence but I can't net the article I was looking for to back up my opinion so have had to resort to a Youtube video which you may have seen before but is a good example of where I am coming from.



The track is Anglesey and you will know the two cars (CSL and M3) one with the best semi-pro rubber and the other with the then best of several years ago. The lap was 50 seconds for the CSL and 52 secs for the normal M3, now does this mean that the tyres accounted for half of the improvement? You may feel that answer is yes but before you jump to your keyboard lets look at the differences between the two cars. The CSL is over a second quicker to 100mph and is a lot lighter as well which greatly helps it's directional changes and it braking without even mentioning it's improved grip levels because of the less weight, next there is the suspension improvement which stiffen both the rebound and compression and I would also reckon you will find a better shock, stiffing bar between the struts and bigger anti-roll bars as well. The braking are better even though there is less weight to start with.

All these other improvements but a total of 2 seconds where shaved off the time and you reckon one of those were the tyres on their own. Sorry mate I don't buy it, from experience the tyres comparisons between the best stock rubber and semi-race stuff doesn't yield such an improvement unless the rest of the kit is improved as well, like is the case with the CSL.

P.S.
Remember that even Michelin state that the old CSL rubber is better than the new verison but where they differ is that wet/cold ability, the new M3's rubber is a lot better than the old M3's tyres so the gap will be even less.

On this occasion you and me are going to have a difference of opinion.
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      06-20-2008, 06:14 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Bruce,

Anything I comment on is usually based on experience and a bit of logic when I am guessing about something. I wish I could give you written evidence but I can't net the article I was looking for to back up my opinion so have had to resort to a Youtube video which you may have seen before but is a good example of where I am coming from.



The track is Anglesey and you will know the two cars (CSL and M3) one with the best semi-pro rubber and the other with the then best of several years ago. The lap was 50 seconds for the CSL and 52 secs for the normal M3, now does this mean that the tyres accounted for half of the improvement? You may feel that answer is yes but before you jump to your keyboard lets look at the differences between the two cars. The CSL is over a second quicker to 100mph and is a lot lighter as well which greatly helps it's directional changes and it braking without even mentioning it's improved grip levels because of the less weight, next there is the suspension improvement which stiffen both the rebound and compression and I would also reckon you will find a better shock, stiffing bar between the struts and bigger anti-roll bars as well. The braking are better even though there is less weight to start with.

All these other improvements but a total of 2 seconds where shaved off the time and you reckon one of those were the tyres on their own. Sorry mate I don't buy it, from experience the tyres comparisons between the best stock rubber and semi-race stuff doesn't yield such an improvement unless the rest of the kit is improved as well, like is the case with the CSL.

P.S.
Remember that even Michelin state that the old CSL rubber is better than the new verison but where they differ is that wet/cold ability, the new M3's rubber is a lot better than the old M3's tyres so the gap will be even less.

On this occasion you and me are going to have a difference of opinion.
,
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      06-20-2008, 06:21 AM   #47
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devo,

Sorry about that and if you check I did try and get it back on track earlier.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...8&postcount=40

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      06-20-2008, 07:03 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
devo,

Sorry about that and if you check I did try and get it back on track earlier.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...8&postcount=40

I know, I'm just playing.
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      06-20-2008, 09:29 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
...The track is Anglesey and you will know the two cars (CSL and M3) one with the best semi-pro rubber and the other with the then best of several years ago. The lap was 50 seconds for the CSL and 52 secs for the normal M3, now does this mean that the tyres accounted for half of the improvement? You may feel that answer is yes but before you jump to your keyboard lets look at the differences between the two cars. The CSL is over a second quicker to 100mph and is a lot lighter as well which greatly helps it's directional changes and it braking without even mentioning it's improved grip levels because of the less weight, next there is the suspension improvement which stiffen both the rebound and compression and I would also reckon you will find a better shock, stiffing bar between the struts and bigger anti-roll bars as well. The braking are better even though there is less weight to start with.

All these other improvements but a total of 2 seconds where shaved off the time and you reckon one of those were the tyres on their own. Sorry mate I don't buy it, from experience the tyres comparisons between the best stock rubber and semi-race stuff doesn't yield such an improvement unless the rest of the kit is improved as well, like is the case with the CSL.

P.S.
Remember that even Michelin state that the old CSL rubber is better than the new verison but where they differ is that wet/cold ability, the new M3's rubber is a lot better than the old M3's tyres so the gap will be even less.

On this occasion you and me are going to have a difference of opinion.
You credit me with more knowledge than I have.

I enjoyed the footage, but have no idea what the tire difference is between those two cars. Did I miss something?

Bruce
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      06-20-2008, 09:42 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
You credit me with more knowledge than I have.

I enjoyed the footage, but have no idea what the tire difference is between those two cars. Did I miss something?

Bruce
The difference is the CSL runs the orginial Michelin Cup+ tyres which believe it or not are actually better in the dry than the new version but the stock M3 were running the best Michelin road tyre of the time (can't remember the model number).

The problem with semi-race tyres is they are or at least use give unbelieveable grip right up to the end and then they let go with no warning, at least with a ultra high performance tyre is they will let go with warning just before it totally lets go, you know how far you can push them. Now on a track with large go off areas and gravel traps the semi-race are fine but on the road I prefer the that little bit of warning, call me a chicken if you like.
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      06-20-2008, 08:39 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
The track is Anglesey and you will know the two cars (CSL and M3) one with the best semi-pro rubber and the other with the then best of several years ago. The lap was 50 seconds for the CSL and 52 secs for the normal M3, now does this mean that the tyres accounted for half of the improvement? You may feel that answer is yes but before you jump to your keyboard lets look at the differences between the two cars. The CSL is over a second quicker to 100mph and is a lot lighter as well which greatly helps it's directional changes and it braking without even mentioning it's improved grip levels because of the less weight, next there is the suspension improvement which stiffen both the rebound and compression and I would also reckon you will find a better shock, stiffing bar between the struts and bigger anti-roll bars as well. The braking are better even though there is less weight to start with.

All these other improvements but a total of 2 seconds where shaved off the time and you reckon one of those were the tyres on their own. Sorry mate I don't buy it, from experience the tyres comparisons between the best stock rubber and semi-race stuff doesn't yield such an improvement unless the rest of the kit is improved as well, like is the case with the CSL.
Good case you present here Footie.
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      06-20-2008, 10:32 PM   #52
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A fairly massively artificial case. Who puts all season tires on an M3 for aggressive driving let alone for track work? Let's be more realistic. From which would you get a bigger change in lap times? Stock M3, stock tires (any particular generation M3) vs. one change only, race rubber or stiffer sway bars? I guess since you already said sways would be a larger difference than the pretty huge change from all season tires to PS2 then you would also still bet on the sways in the case I just laid out? I'd bet on the the rubber myself since the sways are much closer to ideal than the rubber.

On non sporty handling cars with really flimsy sway bars perhaps the sways would buy you more. Would be an interesting experiment. However, I think there are probably some real track nuts here (enigma?) who could answer this pretty definitively without having to do the testing.

I don't know... I run winter wheels and tires for 4 months of the year and I've seen a lot of E36 m3 with all seasons, but, you are right that majority of people do put summer performance tires on M3s. I don't know for certain but the M3s that I have driven with only aftermarket swaybars tend to handle better than stock suspension cars with quality performance tires. Granted the swaybar car also had good tires, but absolute elimination of body roll was confidence inspiring.

either way...put good tires on M3. it's a win win.
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      06-21-2008, 01:46 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malter2.0 View Post
I don't know... I run winter wheels and tires for 4 months of the year and I've seen a lot of E36 m3 with all seasons, but, you are right that majority of people do put summer performance tires on M3s. I don't know for certain but the M3s that I have driven with only aftermarket swaybars tend to handle better than stock suspension cars with quality performance tires. Granted the swaybar car also had good tires, but absolute elimination of body roll was confidence inspiring.

either way...put good tires on M3. it's a win win.
I certainly agree both are very important and it could be that the combination of the two would be better than the sum of the time savings (working together). Either way an interesting question and good point.
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      06-21-2008, 02:14 AM   #54
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I'm willing to bet that set of aftermarket swaybars will make FAR more difference on track than set of more performance oriented tires.
i would disagree. I have seen tests where a full suspension gains a few tenths of a seond on a one minute AX course, where R comp tires would net 4-5 seconds.
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      06-21-2008, 06:50 AM   #55
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i would disagree. I have seen tests where a full suspension gains a few tenths of a seond on a one minute AX course, where R comp tires would net 4-5 seconds.
I would love to read them but from experience I would say otherwise. To even think that the tyres on their own could make as much as 4~5 seconds per minute is absurd unless you are talking shit normal street tyres.

There is a lot more to the science of suspension design then you could possibly believe, one example is the S4 vs RS4, I have driven both and have sampled both with the same wheel/tyre combination. Now both have roughly the same weight balance percentage F to R, the same awd system and weigh within 20Kgs of each other but the RS4 can find grip in a corner that the S4 can only dream of, even taking the power difference I reckon there is a much better chance of the suspension differences making a much bigger improvement than the tyres on their own. Get the suspension setup right for the tyres and you can work the available grip far more efficiently.
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      06-21-2008, 09:08 AM   #56
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The difference is the CSL runs the orginial Michelin Cup+ tyres which believe it or not are actually better in the dry than the new version but the stock M3 were running the best Michelin road tyre of the time (can't remember the model number).
Well I'm at a loss. To me, the standard M3 in that video looks as if it has more traction than the CSL, in the sense that's it's tidier at speed, while the CSL needs more gathering at full chat. I suppose the CSL lap could've been done more at the ragged edge than the M3, but if so, why is it only two seconds quicker? Just a quick glance at 'Ring times shows a four second advantage per minute for the CSL. As mentioned, I'm at sea here.

Oh. Our '04 M3 came with Pilot Sports.

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The problem with semi-race tyres is they are or at least use give unbelieveable grip right up to the end and then they let go with no warning, at least with a ultra high performance tyre is they will let go with warning just before it totally lets go, you know how far you can push them. Now on a track with large go off areas and gravel traps the semi-race are fine but on the road I prefer the that little bit of warning, call me a chicken if you like.
Agree fully. It's always nice to get fair warning in a street (meaning unpredictable) environment. It's all well and good to start piling it on in a predictable track environment where your senses are all set on full, but unless you're doing the early-Sunday-morning blast in your GT3 (or somesuch), something that's a little less sudden works a bunch better. As I've mentioned previously, I used to run a GTI 1.8 with a second rear antiroll bar, and disconnected front bar. This was all well and good to get the car to rotate on track, but way too sudden in the event of that blue-haired lady in the Buick pulling out on you. I always reconnected the bar after leaving the track.

Bruce

PS - Sounds as if you know about the Cup+ tires. How would you relate them in regard to today's PSCs?
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      06-21-2008, 11:00 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
PS - Sounds as if you know about the Cup+ tires. How would you relate them in regard to today's PSCs?
These new ones and like they say, they are new, so I know very little about them. The fact that they are better in the wet and slightly less so in the dry than the older version makes me think that they are running a different compound on the outside compared to the inside. If memory serves me the inside will be silicone based for wet weather grip and obviously the area with the most tread.

The only thing I don't know is whether they are any better in cold temperatures because the last one carried a disclaimer.

The new M3 comes with Cup+ on the 19" alloys, well the one I have seen at any rate and this is why I chose the 18" with their PS2 for a more forgiving roll off of grip and should be more forgiving towards the ride quality as well. Like I said many times I'm not a street racer and I'm no longer interested in the track, even a humble Formula Ford will wipe the floor with 95% of trackday stuff and it at the lowest form of single seater motorsport.

The tyre that I would really like to try on the M3 is the Goodyear Eagle F1s, they seem to offer the best overall balance in both wet and dry conditions, in almost every test I have witnessed they come out on top with the best dry weather grip and more importantly the most consistent lap times proving that temperature build up is less pronounced than the others and grip remains constant. The only thing is that I don't think BMW and Goodyear partnered to make a version for the M3 so you are taking a stock tyre instead of one designed for the job.
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      06-21-2008, 11:28 AM   #58
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i would disagree. I have seen tests where a full suspension gains a few tenths of a seond on a one minute AX course, where R comp tires would net 4-5 seconds.
really? my experience was exactly the opposite on autocross.
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      06-26-2008, 09:50 PM   #59
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Devo, have they released pricing on this yet? Couldn't see it on the porsche website.
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      06-28-2008, 01:26 PM   #60
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Devo, have they released pricing on this yet? Couldn't see it on the porsche website.
$86,200 base. $92,000 will get you pretty much everything you need. The problem is stopping there, lol.

Just heard that the 997TT S will be out in the spring. 530hp, PCCBs standard, PDK is the only gearbox. The base TT will get 500 ponies.
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      06-28-2008, 04:55 PM   #61
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The key word here is claimed.
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      06-28-2008, 05:00 PM   #62
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The key word here is claimed.
I guess we'll see.
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      06-28-2008, 05:11 PM   #63
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I guess we'll see.
Rohrl is a master magician with any car.
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      06-28-2008, 07:18 PM   #64
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$86,200 base. $92,000 will get you pretty much everything you need. The problem is stopping there, lol.

Just heard that the 997TT S will be out in the spring. 530hp, PCCBs standard, PDK is the only gearbox. The base TT will get 500 ponies.
If you keep this up, you'll end up waiting until 201X for the next platform!

Are you they open to discounts on the 09 models as they are with the 08s?
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      06-28-2008, 08:43 PM   #65
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If you keep this up, you'll end up waiting until 201X for the next platform!

Are you they open to discounts on the 09 models as they are with the 08s?
I was able to get a few grand off. I am still waiting for the official post Nov. build slot. How is you ride?
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      06-30-2008, 01:37 PM   #66
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I was able to get a few grand off. I am still waiting for the official post Nov. build slot. How is you ride?
The discount is good. The price for the 09 you posted is about 3% higher than the 08's. I thought Porsche didn't jack up prices too much in between model years on the same platform. That's considerable. I wonder if this means the 09 M3 will see a %3 increase as well. My ride's nice. Real nice.
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