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      06-18-2008, 10:22 AM   #23
devo
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Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Is yours on order then?
Going to the dealer in 45 mins to spec out the car. I have already spent hours speccing it at home over a few whiskys .

Only issuse is that Sport Exhaust isn't available until Nov. So, my Sept build may have to be passed on. As long as I get the car by March, I'm good. It's getting up there, but she should be pretty sweet.

Last edited by devo; 06-18-2008 at 02:07 PM.
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      06-18-2008, 11:33 AM   #24
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Not sure what point you're making here? If what I'm inferring is correct (that you're saying cockpit assassins can and will have wildly varying times), I couldn't disagree more.
Easy Bruce. I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing with anything or anyone. Just pointing out variability due to driver. Isn't that pretty clear? I doubt that Nissan's #2 driver is the engineer who spends his days behind the telemetry computer. That said, I am not saying that Horst's time can be pulled down by another 15 secs. He's obviously no slouch.
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      06-18-2008, 11:45 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by devo View Post
Going to the dealer in 45 mins to spec out the car. I have already spent hours speecing it at home over a few whiskys .

Only issuse is that Sport Exhaust isn't available until Nov. So, my Sept build may have to be passed on. As long as I get the car by March, I'm good. It's getting up there, but she should be pretty sweet.
Nice. You'll have to let me drive down and check it out if you get it this fall...
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      06-18-2008, 01:26 PM   #26
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I think when this car comes out I'm really going to enjoy a test drive
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      06-18-2008, 02:07 PM   #27
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Nice. You'll have to let me drive down and check it out if you get it this fall...
That sounds great. I will keep you posted.
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      06-18-2008, 02:10 PM   #28
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That sounds great. I will keep you posted.
Are you ordering PDK?
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      06-18-2008, 02:21 PM   #29
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Link as requested:

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=127326
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      06-18-2008, 02:24 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Are you ordering PDK?
I can't decide.

This makes deciding that much harder:http://www.evo.co.uk/videos/planetev...rsche-911.html

This is the base Carrera (345 hp) without Sport Exhaust.
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      06-18-2008, 02:57 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by devo View Post
I can't decide.

This makes deciding that much harder:http://www.evo.co.uk/videos/planetev...rsche-911.html

This is the base Carrera (345 hp) without Sport Exhaust.
A couple of interesting quotes from the EVO video:

"I still think for outright driver involvement the manual is the better bet."

"It's a much better system than BMW has got in the M3. Smoother, faster, and just more responsive and more engaging to use."

I wonder how and why it is that PDK is that much better than DCT.

You have a really though choice with the tranny--given you won't be able to test drive one unless you are willing to wait until next year.
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      06-18-2008, 03:05 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by lucid View Post
A couple of interesting quotes from the EVO video:

"I still think for outright driver involvement the manual is the better bet."

"It's a much better system than BMW has got in the M3. Smoother, faster, and just more responsive and more engaging to use."

I wonder how and why it is that PDK is that much better than DCT.

You have a really though choice with the tranny--given you won't be able to test drive one unless you are willing to wait until next year.
Yeah, I don't know that I believe PDK is any better than DCT.

I am currently leaning towards the stick shift.
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      06-18-2008, 03:42 PM   #33
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I think that generalisation of a second a minute in lap time is a little misleading. Semi-race rubber performance various according to type of corner and entry speed, plus it gains nothing on the straights. So if a track has less corners than the next course of equal distance the improvement will also vary. The ring has a shit load of corners but not all will show the kind of improvements to expect a possible 8 second drop in lap time. I personally think a more reasonable 3 seconds might be closer to the truth with a similar improvement coming from the gearbox as well.
Without rancor, I pretty much disagree with everything you say here.

Semi-race sneakers get you slightly higher cornering speeds in every single type of corner, but where they really shine is down the straights - or any other section of track where you can mat the throttle. Reason: You come out of each corner a little harder on these tires because of slightly higher cornering speeds plus the ability to gas it earlier, and you hold that speed advantage right down to the next braking point.

The fat-second-per-minute "rule" is more a reasonable guideline, but I can say that with minor variations, it's held true for both myself and a number of other folks I know who've done a few K miles on various tracks. All this of course presumes aggressive factory rubber to start with. It also presumes performance cars, as I'd assume a stock Camry (or somesuch) may create some interesting camber numbers when subjected to such high G loads. You might need to fasten roller skates to the door handles.

Bruce
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      06-18-2008, 04:43 PM   #34
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Yeah, I don't know that I believe PDK is any better than DCT.
Appropriate balance/skepticism.

Smoother, faster and more engaging in comparing PDK to M-DCT simply reeks of not only fan boy-ism but absurdity as well. M-DCT is about as fast and smooth as it gets. Any improvements there would be pretty miniscule. That being said I'm sure the PDK system will be every bit as good. Heck it may use much of the same hardware or technology.
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      06-18-2008, 05:47 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Without rancor, I pretty much disagree with everything you say here.

Semi-race sneakers get you slightly higher cornering speeds in every single type of corner, but where they really shine is down the straights - or any other section of track where you can mat the throttle. Reason: You come out of each corner a little harder on these tires because of slightly higher cornering speeds plus the ability to gas it earlier, and you hold that speed advantage right down to the next braking point.
I don't disagree with anything you are saying and I was saying something similar, let me explain, performance variations mean that though there is still an improvement the degree of improvement will vary due to the arc of the corner, the enter speed into and through the corner and most important of all whether it's at the start of the session or near the end as heat plays a really big role in the difference between the two. My comment of the straight making no difference was more to highlight that you could in theory have a track with only two corners and two hellish long straights (I know the idea is dumb but there you go) compared to another track with more than a dozen corners but an equal length, you have to admit that the latter track would yield the greater difference. This was my point in using the one second per minute rule.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
The fat-second-per-minute "rule" is more a reasonable guideline, but I can say that with minor variations, it's held true for both myself and a number of other folks I know who've done a few K miles on various tracks. All this of course presumes aggressive factory rubber to start with. It also presumes performance cars, as I'd assume a stock Camry (or somesuch) may create some interesting camber numbers when subjected to such high G loads. You might need to fasten roller skates to the door handles.

Bruce
On the subject of semi-race rubber on stock suspension, I touched on this a long time ago but I feel I need to repeat this again. Each car is set up for a specific type of compound when it's suspension is developed, that is why BMW, Porsche among others choose a certain type of tyres as OEM. Now while their will be an improvement using semi-race rubber over the stock kind the improvement isn't a great as it could be with the suspension re-tuned. Some may feel this is BS but I can assure you it is not and that is why when I say the most logical improvement the tyres may make on the ring is closer to 3 seconds and not the 8 seconds you believe is possible, the only way that could happen is the manufacturer is re-tuning the suspension for those special runs which would be kind of cheating.

It makes me laugh when some people think the tyres is the sole greatest improvement one can make to your time, it's only a factor among many to achieving that goal. Why do manufacturers spend countless hours hammering around tracks like the ring to fine-tune their suspensions when a simple tyre swap would have achieved the same results, job done. Sorry but it doesn't happen that way.
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      06-18-2008, 07:28 PM   #36
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I don't disagree with anything you are saying and I was saying something similar, let me explain, performance variations mean that though there is still an improvement the degree of improvement will vary due to the arc of the corner, the enter speed into and through the corner and most important of all whether it's at the start of the session or near the end as heat plays a really big role in the difference between the two. My comment of the straight making no difference was more to highlight that you could in theory have a track with only two corners and two hellish long straights (I know the idea is dumb but there you go) compared to another track with more than a dozen corners but an equal length, you have to admit that the latter track would yield the greater difference. This was my point in using the one second per minute rule.
Again pretty much disagree with everything. The degree of "improvement" thru each corner will be small, because significant increases in obtainable "G" run hand-in-hand with smaller differences in actual cornering speed and time spent in the corner. That relative improvement will be pretty much a constant in any and all of the corners, however. If you spend four seconds going around the Carousel up at Mont Tremblant on PS2s, then maybe you'll do it in 3.8 seconds on PSCs. Call it five percent, timewise. On the other hand, you're in the Le Diable right-hander for maybe two seconds. That being so, you're likely to see the same five percent improvement through there, for a gain of about a tenth. I'm making the numbers up, but I hope you catch my drift.

I personally have no clue as to which of the break-a-snake's-back or two-corner tracks would show a greater difference between times due to choice of rubber. I'm tempted to say the two-corner track would show a larger difference than the serpentine track, but admit that's just a feeling. In all probability, there would likely be either little difference or none at all.

You need to think about this.

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On the subject of semi-race rubber on stock suspension, I touched on this a long time ago but I feel I need to repeat this again. Each car is set up for a specific type of compound when it's suspension is developed, that is why BMW, Porsche among others choose a certain type of tyres as OEM. Now while their will be an improvement using semi-race rubber over the stock kind the improvement isn't a great as it could be with the suspension re-tuned. Some may feel this is BS but I can assure you it is not and that is why when I say the most logical improvement the tyres may make on the ring is closer to 3 seconds and not the 8 seconds you believe is possible, the only way that could happen is the manufacturer is re-tuning the suspension for those special runs which would be kind of cheating...
My experience over the years with multiple as-delivered cars (except for sneakers and pads) tells me different. A fat second per minute, while not carved in stone, is a very good guideline. Retuning the car (meaning a negative camber setup of perhaps three degrees or so) will yield more, as you say, but to me, that means perhaps a second and a half per minute.

Bruce

Edit: PS - If memory serves, wasn't Rohrl screwing around in the 7:49 7:50 range in a Turbo maybe three years back, before hurling those PSCs on there and going 7:40? Porsche then made them optional on the Turbo, so they could properly say a stock Turbo could best the Z06, right?

Just an example, but it mirrors my own experience.

Last edited by bruce.augenstein@comcast.; 06-18-2008 at 07:57 PM.
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      06-18-2008, 07:49 PM   #37
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It makes me laugh when some people think the tyres is the sole greatest improvement one can make to your time, it's only a factor among many to achieving that goal. Why do manufacturers spend countless hours hammering around tracks like the ring to fine-tune their suspensions when a simple tyre swap would have achieved the same results, job done. Sorry but it doesn't happen that way.
The reason this is true and that you are wrong is simple. Most cars come with tires that are not all that performance oriented. Here with tires you can make a HUGE difference. Even when buying a car like the M3 with very nice rubber, you can still find a stickier tire that will significantly improve your lap times. Bang for the buck tires have been and will be for a long time the single best improvement you can make for most cars, for improving handling or lap times.
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      06-18-2008, 11:09 PM   #38
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I'm willing to bet that set of aftermarket swaybars will make FAR more difference on track than set of more performance oriented tires.

Take two M3s. One with all seasons and one with PS2. It is much more likely that a car with aftermarket swaybars (or set of bilsteins) running all seasons will lap faster than stock suspension car with PS2.

That is not to say you should cheap out on tires, especially on these cars. Tires are a good mod, but not the best.
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      06-19-2008, 02:31 AM   #39
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I'm willing to bet that set of aftermarket swaybars will make FAR more difference on track than set of more performance oriented tires.

Take two M3s. One with all seasons and one with PS2. It is much more likely that a car with aftermarket swaybars (or set of bilsteins) running all seasons will lap faster than stock suspension car with PS2.

That is not to say you should cheap out on tires, especially on these cars. Tires are a good mod, but not the best.
A fairly massively artificial case. Who puts all season tires on an M3 for aggressive driving let alone for track work? Let's be more realistic. From which would you get a bigger change in lap times? Stock M3, stock tires (any particular generation M3) vs. one change only, race rubber or stiffer sway bars? I guess since you already said sways would be a larger difference than the pretty huge change from all season tires to PS2 then you would also still bet on the sways in the case I just laid out? I'd bet on the the rubber myself since the sways are much closer to ideal than the rubber.

On non sporty handling cars with really flimsy sway bars perhaps the sways would buy you more. Would be an interesting experiment. However, I think there are probably some real track nuts here (enigma?) who could answer this pretty definitively without having to do the testing.
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      06-19-2008, 09:55 AM   #40
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It's great to see Swamp and Bruce in agreement.

OK swamp & Bruce first, the 8 seconds Bruce is talking about I believe referred to semi-race compound against PS2 which I very much doubt will yield that kind of improvement unless the suspension is retuned to take advantage of the extra grip available, plain and simple.

Now what malter2.0 is talking about might improve the car's ability to take the corner as quickly as the tyres would on their own though I would be less sure of this. To me suspension and weight balance makes more of a difference to confidence and thus lap times than anything else, of course all other things remaining equal.

But as always we are miles off topic and should get back to the discussion in hand.
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      06-19-2008, 01:20 PM   #41
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Drivers-Republic's review of the new 997 with PDK

http://www.drivers-republic.com/vide...969641a#videos
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      06-19-2008, 01:45 PM   #42
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I wonder what X51 will bring.
400+ hp? Near 997 GT3 ring times?
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      06-19-2008, 05:22 PM   #43
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400+ hp? Near 997 GT3 ring times?
Agreed.

I have heard it will be 415 hp and about 326 lb/ft of torque; which when coupled with PDK will come very close to the current 6 speed GT3's N-ring time.

I have to say, I am really considering it.
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      06-19-2008, 06:38 PM   #44
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...OK swamp & Bruce first, the 8 seconds Bruce is talking about I believe referred to semi-race compound against PS2 which I very much doubt will yield that kind of improvement unless the suspension is retuned to take advantage of the extra grip available, plain and simple...
You've mentioned this a couple of times - as an opinion.

Do you have anything that supports your position? Experience? An article or paper somewhere? Anecdotal data? Anything?

Bruce
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