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      08-25-2008, 06:30 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Garissimo View Post
Good point about the American engineers. Also, they are delivering M5 levels of performance at least a $30K discount; they should be commended for that. I'm looking forward to a comprehensive real world test of the CTS-V. Road and Track's test said next to nothing about the way the CTS-V drives other than the video segment where the drive complimented the magnetic suspension.
This is one of my picky points about people who slap in coilovers in a 335i and think it will handle like an M car. The tuning that the CTS-V (and ///M) engineers do is done at a very fine level, shock valving on compression and rebound, spring rates, camber etc...... This is where the "magic" with Ms happen.

So the notion of someone just slapping in coil-overs in a 335i (or name your car) and believes that it would outperform a M tuned suspension is almost comical.

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Everything I've read about BMW's //M division says they operate more or less autonomously. I think BMW is smart enough not to fix that which is not broken.
If the rumors ///M is using turbocharging, this means BMW has already influenced their subsidiary in the wrong way.
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      08-25-2008, 07:30 PM   #46
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I don't want to sound arrogant but Americans except a standard which we in Europe wouldn't, like the fit and finish of American cars, they are improved for the European market (i.e. built with better materials). Maybe those that do buy from else where expect higher standards from their European products and may be expecting too much, remember there is a huge price difference between buying US and buying European. Also you are a very patriotic bunch which may explain why they is so many US brands near the top.

Flame suit ON.
Perhaps you really didn't intend to sound arrogant, but the specific words you picked (which imply, for instance, that Americans have routinely lower standards than Europeans in situations much broader than the fit and finish of cars) didn't just sound arrogant. They in fact were arrogant.

Arrogance is alright, but only in limited quantities, please. A little goes a long way.

Trust me, I know.

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      08-25-2008, 07:58 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Garissimo View Post
I'm not going to give any spoilers. Here's the link to the result of R&T's CTS-V vs. E60 M5 track showdown:

CTS-V vs. M5
Damn! For some reason I would not have bet that way. Sure, the Cadillac has a fairly small power-to-weight advantage, but as much as I think that SMG was by and large a BMW mistake, it is a hell of a track box, and would have an advantage (as described by Auberlen). Yeah, of course we've all heard of the sub-eight-minute 'Ring time, but, but...it's an M5 against a Cadillac for gosh sakes!

Hat's off to Cadillac. As far as I know (and despite its size), it'll be a competitor more in the M3-C63-RS4-IS-F wars than against, say, the M5 or E63, and from my standpoint, the more the merrier.

Clearly the fanboys are already out in this string, but trust me, this is good news for us all.

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      08-25-2008, 10:52 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Perhaps you really didn't intend to sound arrogant, but the specific words you picked (which imply, for instance, that Americans have routinely lower standards than Europeans in situations much broader than the fit and finish of cars) didn't just sound arrogant. They in fact were arrogant.

Arrogance is alright, but only in limited quantities, please. A little goes a long way.

Trust me, I know.

Bruce
Bruce, it was solely cars I was addressing, nothing else. There is no doubt that Americans demand a lot of metal for their buck, compared to us lot in Europe. Not only do you get all cars way cheaper, you also get better servicing terms as well, this is only given because you demand it, so you expectations are very high, especially from stuff which is of similar size to your home-grown brand but priced about double.

I think for European brands to reach this high in the rating is a bloody good job and out of all the European brands BMW is top.
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      08-26-2008, 02:04 AM   #49
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Here is a new test by Edmunds.

CTS-V had a faster 0-60, 1/4 mile, braking, skidpad and slalom.

Link:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...hotopanel..1.*


Not bad. More incentive for BMW to build a bigger and badder M5. And we all know they will.
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      08-27-2008, 10:44 AM   #50
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...Not bad. More incentive for BMW to build a bigger and badder M5. And we all know they will.
They probably will, but I personally think the CTS-V will be a strong competitor to the M3, playing in that same price and performance ballpark - although it's an M5-sized car.

Without the benefit of full road tests by the motoring press, there's no way to yet tell how the car will behave in everyday driving, but based solely on my neighbor's 300 HP '08 CTS, it'll be just fine, with all the accoutrements for comfy motoring to keep your S.O. happy, but able to leap tall buildings at a single bound when called upon to do so. Sure, it won't be as tossable as the M3, but even that car loses to the 1 series on the tossability front.

I could even be happy with an automatic (a first for me), with that river of torque. My early-retirement pocketbook would be happier with the beer-budget 135i, but I could stretch it a bit for this car.

We'll see.

Bruce

Last edited by bruce.augenstein@comcast.; 08-29-2008 at 12:32 PM.
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      08-27-2008, 04:27 PM   #51
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I have been seeing a lot of CTS's here in Southern California lately, even with the younger crowd. I still don't see Caddy's replacing BMW, Benz or Audi anytime soon.
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      08-27-2008, 04:39 PM   #52
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This is great incentive for BMW. GM just built a car with 140 more HP for $12K less than the M3. If you compare it to the M5 the distinction becomes even greater. Although it is a brute force attack it bodes very well for future performance and pricing.
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      08-27-2008, 05:43 PM   #53
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Just wait until the tuners get their hands on the new V... We'll be seeing over 600hp in short order with very little money needed.
Competition helps us all.
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      08-28-2008, 12:01 AM   #54
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What can I say that's not already said? M5 size/performance for M3 money. This is a victory for Cadillac, for two important reasons.

1) The M5 has been in production for 20 over years, and always has been the standard bearer. For ANY company to produce a car with equal performance AND for LESS money with only their SECOND attempt is something to behold.

2) The CTS-V winning despite the BMW's SMG (which is most at home on the track) and lighter weight.

Of course, great competition breeds great automobiles. I expect the next M5 to raise the bar higher. Time never stands still. However, I think the CTS-V has such a good base with the new CTS structure that I can see them staying competitive for years to come.

With that said, I'm tired of the same 'ol GM bashing, like questioning its reliability. Listen, I would GLADLY compare Cadillac's reliability history with BMW's any day of the week. As for the CTS-V's, fit and finish, it's actually been the new CTS's strengths. Take a look at the comparison tests, like the one at Car and Driver. The 328i won, but this is what they said about the CTS' interior and overall quality:

"A high-speed cruise down the interstate gave us some time to appreciate the CTS’s great on-center steering and well-executed cabin. Even when trimmed in vinyl, the CTS’s cabin looks terrific—this synthetic stuff looks better than GM leather of the recent past. High-quality plastics, bespoke switchgear, and a dashboard covered in carefully stitched vinyl look as if they were lifted from a much more expensive sedan."

... and that's just the normal CTS's interior. I expect the CTS-V to be even better.

All in all, fun comparison!
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      08-29-2008, 11:02 AM   #55
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With that said, I'm tired of the same 'ol GM bashing, like questioning its reliability. Listen, I would GLADLY compare Cadillac's reliability history with BMW's any day of the week.




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      08-29-2008, 12:44 PM   #56
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What can I say that's not already said? M5 size/performance for M3 money. This is a victory for Cadillac, for two important reasons.

1) The M5 has been in production for 20 over years, and always has been the standard bearer. For ANY company to produce a car with equal performance AND for LESS money with only their SECOND attempt is something to behold.

2) The CTS-V winning despite the BMW's SMG (which is most at home on the track) and lighter weight.

Of course, great competition breeds great automobiles. I expect the next M5 to raise the bar higher. Time never stands still. However, I think the CTS-V has such a good base with the new CTS structure that I can see them staying competitive for years to come.

With that said, I'm tired of the same 'ol GM bashing, like questioning its reliability. Listen, I would GLADLY compare Cadillac's reliability history with BMW's any day of the week. As for the CTS-V's, fit and finish, it's actually been the new CTS's strengths. Take a look at the comparison tests, like the one at Car and Driver. The 328i won, but this is what they said about the CTS' interior and overall quality:

"A high-speed cruise down the interstate gave us some time to appreciate the CTS’s great on-center steering and well-executed cabin. Even when trimmed in vinyl, the CTS’s cabin looks terrific—this synthetic stuff looks better than GM leather of the recent past. High-quality plastics, bespoke switchgear, and a dashboard covered in carefully stitched vinyl look as if they were lifted from a much more expensive sedan."

... and that's just the normal CTS's interior. I expect the CTS-V to be even better.

All in all, fun comparison!
Cadillac has made some amazingly stupid moves in the past (anybody remember the Cimarron?), but they appear to have set out on a genuine roll. The CTS is a player, period, and the CTS-V is simply astounding - especially reading some of the early, non-track impressions of the car, which seem to indicate it's an everyday fairly comfy driver.

Jeez, what if it matches the M3's gas mileage?

Bruce
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      08-29-2008, 09:49 PM   #57
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What's your point? Can you prove BMW's reliability is superior to Cadillac's? If so, please list your sources.
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      08-29-2008, 09:52 PM   #58
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What's your point? Can you prove BMW's reliability is superior to Cadillac's? If so, please list your sources.

Ah no one cares.
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      08-29-2008, 09:59 PM   #59
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Ah no one cares.
But you cared enough to respond to my post. Now, you don't care enough to prove the point you attempted to make?
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      08-30-2008, 01:08 PM   #60
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But you cared enough to respond to my post. Now, you don't care enough to prove the point you attempted to make?

I showed you pics of the amazing Cimmaron, part Cavalier and part Cadillac tradition.

The new CTS-V is a nice car....don't make it a Caddy vs. BMW thing......
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      08-30-2008, 02:00 PM   #61
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I showed you pics of the amazing Cimmaron, part Cavalier and part Cadillac tradition.

The new CTS-V is a nice car....don't make it a Caddy vs. BMW thing......
So you showed basically the lowest point of Cadillac's history, while ignoring the highest points, especially during the 70's, and of course, now. I didn't intend on making it a Caddy vs BMW comparison, but since it's probably the most oft criticism against owning a Cadillac, I addressed it.

Secondly, what you posted is a non-sequitor, I asked for proof that BMW's reliability is superior to Cadillac's. Showing a picture of the Cimmaron does not address that.
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      08-30-2008, 07:21 PM   #62
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So you showed basically the lowest point of Cadillac's history, while ignoring the highest points, especially during the 70's, and of course, now. I didn't intend on making it a Caddy vs BMW comparison, but since it's probably the most oft criticism against owning a Cadillac, I addressed it.

Secondly, what you posted is a non-sequitor, I asked for proof that BMW's reliability is superior to Cadillac's. Showing a picture of the Cimmaron does not address that.

Don't you have something else better to do than quote latin terms on the internet?

The new CTS-V is nice, period.

BTW You asked comparison of reliabilty, I gave you Cimmaron - horrible. In the end who cares about quality....if you really want, we can dig up that video of the guy who had horrible problems with the last generation of CTS-V. It follows too because if you want quality / reliability do you really want to compare GM with BMW over the past 50 years?

Have fun with the latin dictionary.
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      08-31-2008, 12:44 AM   #63
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Don't you have something else better to do than quote latin terms on the internet?

The new CTS-V is nice, period.

BTW You asked comparison of reliabilty, I gave you Cimmaron - horrible. In the end who cares about quality....if you really want, we can dig up that video of the guy who had horrible problems with the last generation of CTS-V. It follows too because if you want quality / reliability do you really want to compare GM with BMW over the past 50 years?

Have fun with the latin dictionary.
I can assure you I can find equally disparaging comments from former/current BMW M3/M5 owners who had problems with their vehicles.

I'm still waiting for proof of BMW's superiority in reliability. Showing me a picture of a car made 20 years ago is NOT proof. We don't need to go back 50 years since most people are not in market for either a 50-year old BMW or Cadillac. How about the last 10 years?
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      08-31-2008, 02:24 PM   #64
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I can assure you I can find equally disparaging comments from former/current BMW M3/M5 owners who had problems with their vehicles.

I'm still waiting for proof of BMW's superiority in reliability. Showing me a picture of a car made 20 years ago is NOT proof. We don't need to go back 50 years since most people are not in market for either a 50-year old BMW or Cadillac. How about the last 10 years?

Have fun in your own little world! Enjoy your car.
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      08-31-2008, 04:01 PM   #65
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Have fun in your own little world! Enjoy your car.
Ahh .. so since you have no defense, you have to attack what I drive? So be it. I'm not ashamed of my car, it's paid off, gets me from point A to point B, and gets good gas mileage. Could I buy a BMW? Theoretically yes, but I believe in "keeping the eye simple", so it doesn't distract me from what's truly important.
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      08-31-2008, 04:20 PM   #66
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Ahh .. so since you have no defense, you have to attack what I drive? So be it. I'm not ashamed of my car, it's paid off, gets me from point A to point B, and gets good gas mileage. Could I buy a BMW? Theoretically yes, but I believe in "keeping the eye simple", so it doesn't distract me from what's truly important.

No, it is waste of time arguing with idiots on the internet.

I didn't insult you or your car BTW....just enjoy....smell the roses....lust for whatever car you want, GM or BMW.
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