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      06-17-2008, 09:42 AM   #1
devo
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Claimed 7:50 for the 997S w/PDK

Porsche says that a 997S with PDK will achieve a 7:50 at the Ring. Sounds good to me. I wonder what X51 will bring.
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      06-17-2008, 10:43 AM   #2
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That's a very good time for 385hp. I've read the traditional "head bobbing" of the 911 has been totally eradicated this time, which will help its braking stability, increasing front tyres grip and driver's confidence diving into a corner.

Btw, do you have a link to this piece of news?
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      06-17-2008, 10:45 AM   #3
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I take it this time is not in the hands of SportAuto but Walter. Either way it's still an amazing improvement over the old model, in fact how have they done such an improvement.
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      06-17-2008, 11:47 AM   #4
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How about the link?
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      06-17-2008, 12:08 PM   #5
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      06-17-2008, 02:02 PM   #6
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What was the old 355hp 997 time?
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      06-17-2008, 02:39 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icemang17 View Post
What was the old 355hp 997 time?
I think Walter Rohrl did it in 8:02
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      06-17-2008, 02:50 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icemang17 View Post
What was the old 355hp 997 time?
7:59

Rohrl said that it was a pluperfect bitch to get the 997S below 8:00 flat. Of course, he said it more politely than that, but that's what he meant. It tied at 7:59 with an '05 Z51 Vette.

Current M3 time is 8:05 with sticky sneakers, but without heroics. Everybody (including me) expects better out of the new gearbox. I'm thinking maybe even a little better than 8:05 with PS2s and a hired assassin on board.

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Last edited by bruce.augenstein@comcast.; 06-17-2008 at 02:51 PM. Reason: Spelling
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      06-17-2008, 03:02 PM   #9
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I'm pretty sure the 997S was 8:06 and the C4S with 8:02, whether these figures were by Walter or SportAuto I don't know but I can't recall seeing the 997 posting a time of 7:59.

As for the M3 DCT, logic says a time of 8:00 dead sounds about right. If it's no improvement over the manual then it will prove that the gearbox has not be setup for proper track work, which would be understandable considering it's been design for a everyday car (admittedly a very quick one at that).
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      06-17-2008, 05:21 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
I'm pretty sure the 997S was 8:06 and the C4S with 8:02, whether these figures were by Walter or SportAuto I don't know but I can't recall seeing the 997 posting a time of 7:59.

As for the M3 DCT, logic says a time of 8:00 dead sounds about right. If it's no improvement over the manual then it will prove that the gearbox has not be setup for proper track work, which would be understandable considering it's been design for a everyday car (admittedly a very quick one at that).
Rohrl did a 7:59 and Sport Auto the 8:05.

I don't have a link for Porsche's (alleged) claim of 7:50, but that may be with sticky shoes too; we'll see.
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      06-17-2008, 10:47 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Current M3 time is 8:05 with sticky sneakers, but without heroics.
But that's just the sportuato time. BMW never released their best time with their/aggressive young driver, which I think would beat the sporauto time by 5-10 seconds at the least if it were ever to be released.
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      06-17-2008, 11:32 PM   #12
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But that's just the sportuato time. BMW never released their best time with their/aggressive young driver, which I think would beat the sporauto time by 5-10 seconds at the least if it were ever to be released.
"Without heroics" is how I characterize the Sportauto time. As a for instance, Horst went an 8:05 in the 997S compared to Rohrl's 7:59, so it might be reasonable to assume something close to that kind of difference in the case of the M3 as well.

Then again, what were the sneakers worth? The only reference I could find (other than you guys) was that the PSC+ tires are not as aggressive as the Pirelli Corsas - but the Corsas are a very serious tire indeed. More serious than the PSCs, for instance.

A call to Michelin engineeering here in the states brought an opinion that the PSC+ tires ought to perform about like the PSCs - but better in the wet. This is a lot like the Pilot Sports vs PS2s. On the other hand, he had no actual data to quote, I assume because he's U.S. and those tires aren't sold here.

Generally speaking, DOT-legal semi-race rubber tends to be worth a fat second a minute in lap times over tires like the PS2, so for me to state that I think the new automatic may result in slightly improved lap times even on PS2s means I'm giving the new box a lot of credit.

I'm guessing we'll never know. Pity.

Bruce
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      06-18-2008, 12:11 AM   #13
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I beleive it - prolly the e92 can get this too in the hands of the right person.
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      06-18-2008, 04:43 AM   #14
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I beleive it - prolly the e92 can get this too in the hands of the right person.
A stock M3, make a 7:50 time. I not sure it can do that.

Picking up 15 seconds over the current time would be difficult, even with Kubica driving the car.
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      06-18-2008, 06:42 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
I beleive it - prolly the e92 can get this too in the hands of the right person.
Equal tires and drivers and the 2009 997S w/sport suspension/LSD should take at least a couple of seconds out of the E92 M3. The P car is considerably lighter, has a better power to weight ratio and has much more contact patch.

Nonetheless, both are very fast cars.
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      06-18-2008, 06:49 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
"Without heroics" is how I characterize the Sportauto time. As a for instance, Horst went an 8:05 in the 997S compared to Rohrl's 7:59, so it might be reasonable to assume something close to that kind of difference in the case of the M3 as well.
Nissan was reporting that their #1 guy was 15 seconds faster than their #2 guy in the GTR. It is interesting that some manufacturers are making a marketing move by publishing their times, and others don't.
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      06-18-2008, 06:50 AM   #17
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Quote:
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Porsche says that a 997S with PDK will achieve a 7:50 at the Ring. Sounds good to me. I wonder what X51 will bring.
Is yours on order then?
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      06-18-2008, 07:37 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Generally speaking, DOT-legal semi-race rubber tends to be worth a fat second a minute in lap times over tires like the PS2, so for me to state that I think the new automatic may result in slightly improved lap times even on PS2s means I'm giving the new box a lot of credit.

I'm guessing we'll never know. Pity.

Bruce
I think that generalisation of a second a minute in lap time is a little misleading. Semi-race rubber performance various according to type of corner and entry speed, plus it gains nothing on the straights. So if a track has less corners than the next course of equal distance the improvement will also vary. The ring has a shit load of corners but not all will show the kind of improvements to expect a possible 8 second drop in lap time. I personally think a more reasonable 3 seconds might be closer to the truth with a similar improvement coming from the gearbox as well.
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      06-18-2008, 08:26 AM   #19
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The P car 7:50 was on trick rubber too.

I believe the DCT alone would drop the M under 8. If Walther drives it it might get close to 7.55 but not 7.50.
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      06-18-2008, 08:33 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
I think that generalisation of a second a minute in lap time is a little misleading. Semi-race rubber performance various according to type of corner and entry speed, plus it gains nothing on the straights. So if a track has less corners than the next course of equal distance the improvement will also vary. The ring has a shit load of corners but not all will show the kind of improvements to expect a possible 8 second drop in lap time. I personally think a more reasonable 3 seconds might be closer to the truth with a similar improvement coming from the gearbox as well.
Footie

You might be surprised how much time you can save with sticky tyres, especially at the ring, even if its just the additional confidence they give during the balls out corners to stay on throttle when your brain is screaming at you to back off. I have done the BMW Driver training at the ring for the last two years so I know it pretty well. When taking passenger laps in a CSL (I was driving an E46 M3) I couldn’t believe the speeds it was taking some of the corners. It felt glued without any complaint from the tyres, whereas my own tyres would have been squealing at similar speeds. Driving the two cars back to back, really gave me a feel of the difference the rubber makes.

Let me put it this way…..I would say switching to PSC’s will give a far greater improvement to ring lap times over regular rubber, than a DCT car will be faster than a MT.

Mick
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      06-18-2008, 09:01 AM   #21
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Mick,

You have to remember that Horst's knowledge of the ring is second to none and he is not an occasional trackday driver, I agree that semi-race rubber improves things and will add confidence to the average driver in the same way as awd does, but from a pure benefit excluding confidence it might not improve as much as 8 seconds that's all I was meaning.

I have also said that I felt DCT could improve it's time by about 5 seconds and that's pure a rough calculation based on the expected improvements in acceleration times.
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      06-18-2008, 10:20 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Nissan was reporting that their #1 guy was 15 seconds faster than their #2 guy in the GTR...
Not sure what point you're making here? If what I'm inferring is correct (that you're saying cockpit assassins can and will have wildly varying times), I couldn't disagree more.

More on point, Horst was within six seconds of a famous Porsche cockpit assassin, so unless our so-far mythical M3 pilot actually descended from the cross to try his luck, it would be reasonable to assume roughly similar differences. One could even make a case that the M3 difference might be a bit smaller than in the 997S, because the Porsche is definitely a bastard at the limit, and as far as I'm aware, the M3 isn't.

Bruce
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