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      06-09-2008, 08:31 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
Your argument about ganeil's "friend" could also apply to me and John McCain in that, for my viewpoint, the likelihood of John McCain offering strict constructionist federal judges and SC justices is much higher than the chance Obama would do it. Actually, the change of my vote is probably easier than for ganeil's "friend" because my candidate can't win. It would be going back to picking the lesser of two evils (although in some issues, I'm not so certain which one of these two is less evil).
You illustrate clearly one of the big challenges for John McCain. Both candidates have rather large challenges. It will be interesting to see which one is best able to overcome theirs.
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      06-09-2008, 08:42 PM   #68
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Exactly what potential judicial issue do you believe will trump her current position?

Although she no longer practices law (nor do I), we know each other from law school and she is not a big fan of judicial activist judges.
Unless your lesbian friend is a died in the wool conservative I find it hard to imagine she has no appreciation for how different life could be for her and her partner with a Supreme Court that leans far to the right.
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      06-09-2008, 08:56 PM   #69
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Unless your lesbian friend is a died in the wool conservative I find it hard to imagine she has no appreciation for how different life could be for her and her partner with a Supreme Court that leans far to the right.
She is nowhere near a conservative. We agree on virtually no political issues. She is in favor of higher taxes on the rich (like herself), wants more government spending for the "needy," wants national health care, opposes school choice, the list goes on...

One issue we do agree on is the proper role of judges in our system. While she is adamantly pro-choice, she recognizes that Roe v. Wade was a horrid piece of judicial reasoning and the issue would be better resolved politically.

Tell me how you believe her life will improve with Obama nominated justices and I will pass it on.
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      06-09-2008, 10:36 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
She is nowhere near a conservative. We agree on virtually no political issues. She is in favor of higher taxes on the rich (like herself), wants more government spending for the "needy," wants national health care, opposes school choice, the list goes on...

One issue we do agree on is the proper role of judges in our system. While she is adamantly pro-choice, she recognizes that Roe v. Wade was a horrid piece of judicial reasoning and the issue would be better resolved politically.

Tell me how you believe her life will improve with Obama nominated justices and I will pass it on.
Just ask some of her gay and lesbian friends. I'm sure you'll get an earful.

Interesting, my circle of friends includes folks from all persuations, including some gay and some of them conservative. No one I know who is pro-choice wants to see Roe v. Wade overturned.
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      06-09-2008, 11:58 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by BKsBimmer View Post
To describe Barack Obama as elitist is either a misuse of the word on your part or evidence you don't know the meaning of the word, given Senator Obama's humble origins. I laugh everytime I hear people use the term about him.
Just because a person comes from humble beginnings, doesnt mean he can never ever become an elitist. BO is now a millionaire and is far better off then when he was going to college. It is what he believes now and what his policies he proposes that will determine whether he will pass laws that support the common middle income taxpayer or only the elite.

BO is now showing signs that he is a typical politician after all.
After criticising HRC and McCain about the gas tax relief, he is now proposing a tax credit to offset gas prices. So, now that he wants to woo the common folk, this is now a good idea? Why the change in position now? Other than the obvious opportunistic reasons.

My fear is that BO is another version of Bush. Yet another incompetent ideologue to take over the white house. Except now it is to the other extreme. Instead of ultra rightist policies, now we swing to the other end of the spectrum and get radical left policies like government programs for every ill of the world, high taxes to pay for these programs, and slowed growth bec of a unfriendly business climate.

Under Bush, the rich prosper.
Under Obama, the welfare queens prosper.

Either way, the middle class gets the shaft.
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      06-10-2008, 06:17 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by BKsBimmer View Post
Just ask some of her gay and lesbian friends. I'm sure you'll get an earful.
In other words, you are convinced she will "come to her senses" but have no actual clue why changing her decision makes any sense at all.

How typical.

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Interesting, my circle of friends includes folks from all persuations, including some gay and some of them conservative. No one I know who is pro-choice wants to see Roe v. Wade overturned.
Have any of the actually studied the issue? Being pro-choice and believing Roe was a poor decision is not all that uncommon.


“One of the most curious things about Roe is that, behind its own verbal smokescreen, the substantive judgment on which it rests is nowhere to be found.”
Laurence Tribe: “The Supreme Court, 1972 Term—Foreword: Toward a Model of Roles in the Due Process of Life and Law,” 87 Harvard Law Review 1, 7 (1973).
“As a matter of constitutional interpretation and judicial method, Roe borders on the indefensible. I say this as someone utterly committed to the right to choose, as someone who believes such a right has grounding elsewhere in the Constitution instead of where Roe placed it, and as someone who loved Roe’s author like a grandfather.”
….

“What, exactly, is the problem with Roe? The problem, I believe, is that it has little connection to the Constitutional right it purportedly interpreted. A constitutional right to privacy broad enough to include abortion has no meaningful foundation in constitutional text, history, or precedent - at least, it does not if those sources are fairly described and reasonably faithfully followed.”
Edward Lazarus: “The Lingering Problems with Roe v. Wade, and Why the Recent Senate Hearings on Michael McConnell’s Nomination Only Underlined Them,” FindLaw Legal Commentary, Oct. 3, 2002
“[A]s a matter of constitutional interpretation, even most liberal jurisprudes — if you administer truth serum — will tell you it is basically indefensible."
“Liberals, Don’t Make Her an Icon” Washington Post July 10, 2003.
“(I)t is time to admit in public that, as an example of the practice of constitutional opinion writing, Roe is a serious disappointment. You will be hard-pressed to find a constitutional law professor, even among those who support the idea of constitutional protection for the right to choose, who will embrace the opinion itself rather than the result.

“This is not surprising. As constitutional argument, Roe is barely coherent. The court pulled its fundamental right to choose more or less from the constitutional ether. It supported that right via a lengthy, but purposeless, cross-cultural historical review of abortion restrictions and a tidy but irrelevant refutation of the straw-man argument that a fetus is a constitutional ‘person’ entited to the protection of the 14th Amendment.
….

“By declaring an inviolable fundamental right to abortion, Roe short-circuited the democratic deliberation that is the most reliable method of deciding questions of competing values.”
Kermit Roosevelt: “Shaky Basis for a Constitutional ‘Right’,” Washington Post, January 22, 2003.
“Although I am pro-choice, I was taught in law school, and still believe, that Roe v. Wade is a muddle of bad reasoning and an authentic example of judicial overreaching. I also believe it was a political disaster for liberals. Roe is what first politicized religious conservatives while cutting off a political process that was legalizing abortion state by state anyway.”
Michael Kinsley: “The Right’s Kind of Activism,” Washington Post, November 14, 2004.
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      06-10-2008, 08:27 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
In other words, you are convinced she will "come to her senses" but have no actual clue why changing her decision makes any sense at all.

How typical.

Have any of the actually studied the issue? Being pro-choice and believing Roe was a poor decision is not all that uncommon.
Arguing penumbras and emanations is how abortion became a privacy issue. In the late '60s and early '70s they were taking too many hallucinogens to make good sense.
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      06-10-2008, 08:38 AM   #74
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My fear is that BO is another version of Bush. Yet another incompetent ideologue to take over the white house. Except now it is to the other extreme. Instead of ultra rightist policies,...
Which of Bush's policies would you describe as ultra rightist?

Medicare prescription drug plan?

No Child Left Behind?

Tax cuts that shifted more of the federal income tax burden on the highest earners?

Even his rationale for staying in Iraq has been more Wilson/Kennedy than Goldwater or Reagan.

You may disagree with Bush policies but they are by no definition ultra rightist nor has Bush governed as an ideologue.
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      06-10-2008, 09:35 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Which of Bush's policies would you describe as ultra rightist?

Medicare prescription drug plan?

No Child Left Behind?

Tax cuts that shifted more of the federal income tax burden on the highest earners?

Even his rationale for staying in Iraq has been more Wilson/Kennedy than Goldwater or Reagan.

You may disagree with Bush policies but they are by no definition ultra rightist nor has Bush governed as an ideologue.
Oh c'mon... I am not an Obama fan, but surely many will agree that Bush was an ideologue when it came to the war on Iraq. Bush was not looking at facts. He had already decided to invade Iraq irregardless of whether they had WMD and continue to cook the books to make his case even when the facts showed otherwise.

Another example of ultra rightist, is his being beholdened to the religious right. There is nothing wrong with people believing in their faith. My problem is when they try to impose their faith on me!

This also extends to Supreme Court appointments. While I am not looking for activist judges, I dont want a leftist or rightist activist judge.

I also hate the no-bid contracts that Bush gave out to enrich his supporters in Halliburton, the oil industry, military industrial complex... But I also recognize that Obama will be no different, except that he will enrich a different special interest group... THis is where the McCain Fiscal Conservatism is attractive to me.

These concerns I do have on McCain as well. But all in all, I will take it over Obama's inexperience and his tax policies.

ps
People have forgotten another rationale for going to war in Iraq.
There was a belief amongst neocons that a pro-US Iraq could transform the middle east to be more pro-US.
Unfortunately, Bush/Rumsfeld screwed it all up with the execution and made the mess we have today.
I even bought into this original goal and for that reason as well as the WMD that Bush lied to all of us, I had supported going to war with Iraq.

And please note that I have a younger brother serving his 2nd tour in Iraq now. He always knew his risks when he signed up (much to my mom's chagrin).
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      06-10-2008, 11:07 AM   #76
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Oh c'mon... I am not an Obama fan, but surely many will agree that Bush was an ideologue when it came to the war on Iraq. Bush was not looking at facts. He had already decided to invade Iraq irregardless of whether they had WMD and continue to cook the books to make his case even when the facts showed otherwise.
There was absolutely nothing distinctly ideological about the case for the war against Iraq. If you recall it was supported by a broad cross section of the American people and by large majorities in the Congress.

This idea that Bush "cooked the books" maybe an article of faith for many but it is simply not borne out by the facts. The report recently released by Sen Rockefeller, despite his statements to the contrary bears this out.
On Iraq's nuclear weapons program? The president's statements "were generally substantiated by intelligence community estimates."

On biological weapons, production capability and those infamous mobile laboratories? The president's statements "were substantiated by intelligence information."

On chemical weapons, then? "Substantiated by intelligence information."

On weapons of mass destruction overall (a separate section of the intelligence committee report)? "Generally substantiated by intelligence information." Delivery vehicles such as ballistic missiles? "Generally substantiated by available intelligence." Unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to deliver WMDs? "Generally substantiated by intelligence information."

(S)tatements regarding Iraq's support for terrorist groups other than al-Qaeda "were substantiated by intelligence information." Statements that Iraq provided safe haven for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and other terrorists with ties to al-Qaeda "were substantiated by the intelligence assessments," and statements regarding Iraq's contacts with al-Qaeda "were substantiated by intelligence information."
Source

Now Rockefeller is no right winger but even he was saying in late 2002, "There has been some debate over how 'imminent' a threat Iraq poses. I do believe Iraq poses an imminent threat. I also believe after September 11, that question is increasingly outdated. . . . To insist on further evidence could put some of our fellow Americans at risk. Can we afford to take that chance? I do not think we can."

Quote:
Another example of ultra rightist, is his being beholdened to the religious right. There is nothing wrong with people believing in their faith. My problem is when they try to impose their faith on me!
How has this alleged beholdenness translated into policy? In what way has Bush attempted to impose his faith on you or anyone else?

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This also extends to Supreme Court appointments. While I am not looking for activist judges, I dont want a leftist or rightist activist judge.
Then you should be extremely satisfied with Chief Justice Roberts and Justice Alito. They are not activists by any stretch.

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I also hate the no-bid contracts that Bush gave out to enrich his supporters in Halliburton, the oil industry, military industrial complex...
There is absolutely no evidence that Bush had any role in the awarding of any no-bid contracts or that they were awarded to friends or supporters. Often no-bid contracts are awarded when there is an immediate need to a specific service, there is a history of a contractor providing such service, and as in the case of those awarded to KBR, a dearth of viable competitors in the field.

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People have forgotten another rationale for going to war in Iraq.
There was a belief amongst neocons that a pro-US Iraq could transform the middle east to be more pro-US.
Unfortunately, Bush/Rumsfeld screwed it all up with the execution and made the mess we have today.
Don't you think it is a little early to judge the results in Iraq. Every day the elected government gets stronger, the insurgency grows weaker, and popular support for both the Shia and Sunni extremists declines.

Thank your brother for his service.
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      06-10-2008, 11:57 AM   #77
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BO is now showing signs that he is a typical politician after all.
After criticising HRC and McCain about the gas tax relief, he is now proposing a tax credit to offset gas prices. So, now that he wants to woo the common folk, this is now a good idea? Why the change in position now? Other than the obvious opportunistic reasons.
This is not new. He proposed this during his bashing of McCain and HRC. He said what good is lifting the federal gas tax if it only saves americans $28 and so much of the funding for roads and bridges comes from that gas tax? He said give them some REAL support by offering families a $5,000 tax credit and $2,500 for individuals to offset the rising gas prices as well as the cost for food and other items that have increased. This tax credit is not just for gas, but for everything else that has gone up. Get your story right.
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      06-10-2008, 02:30 PM   #78
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HA! Romney is the king of change. He's changed all his beliefs. I know, he was my governor *shiver*.

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Weren't you the one kissing Romney's ass on another thread?

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148055
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      06-10-2008, 02:31 PM   #79
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Having Hitler run America is also change...
Not all change is good...

Under Obama, almost all of us here can expect a tax increase.
Watch closely how he defines middle class when refers to his tax policies...
Most people who are here dont qualify as middle class.

-- A Democrat voting for McCain. --
Sorry bub, but making more than $200k per year is NOT middle class. Period.
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      06-10-2008, 02:41 PM   #80
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Sorry bub, but making more than $200k per year is NOT middle class. Period.
So a family of 4 where mom is a NYC teacher with 15years of experience and dad is a NYC police sergeant would not be a middle class family?
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      06-10-2008, 03:17 PM   #81
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So a family of 4 where mom is a NYC teacher with 15years of experience and dad is a NYC police sergeant would not be a middle class family?
Actually, this is the only equity in the whole thing of the progressive tax. Since incomes run higher in the most liberal places, at least they will get taxed at the higher rates than the rest of us who live where income is less (and hopefully the cost of living is less). All the same, I say down with most of the federal government. Each state should decide what to do on it's own.
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      06-10-2008, 07:42 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by ptan55 View Post
Just because a person comes from humble beginnings, doesnt mean he can never ever become an elitist. BO is now a millionaire and is far better off then when he was going to college. It is what he believes now and what his policies he proposes that will determine whether he will pass laws that support the common middle income taxpayer or only the elite.

BO is now showing signs that he is a typical politician after all.
After criticising HRC and McCain about the gas tax relief, he is now proposing a tax credit to offset gas prices. So, now that he wants to woo the common folk, this is now a good idea? Why the change in position now? Other than the obvious opportunistic reasons.

My fear is that BO is another version of Bush. Yet another incompetent ideologue to take over the white house. Except now it is to the other extreme. Instead of ultra rightist policies, now we swing to the other end of the spectrum and get radical left policies like government programs for every ill of the world, high taxes to pay for these programs, and slowed growth bec of a unfriendly business climate.

Under Bush, the rich prosper.
Under Obama, the welfare queens prosper.

Either way, the middle class gets the shaft.
Obama is a very recent millionare but nowhere near as rich as the Clintons and the McCains. It's laughable when high life multi-millionare types like the Clintons and McCains use the term to describe someone like Barack Obama who still lives on the south side of Chicago. Obama has more of a connection to middle class folks than the Clintons or McCains could ever hope to. It's clear you don't know the meaning of the word.

Can you imagine how irritating it will be when all the prosperous welfare queens are driving BMWs??? We won't feel special anymore.
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      06-10-2008, 07:46 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
In other words, you are convinced she will "come to her senses" but have no actual clue why changing her decision makes any sense at all.

How typical.



Have any of the actually studied the issue? Being pro-choice and believing Roe was a poor decision is not all that uncommon.


“One of the most curious things about Roe is that, behind its own verbal smokescreen, the substantive judgment on which it rests is nowhere to be found.”
Laurence Tribe: “The Supreme Court, 1972 Term—Foreword: Toward a Model of Roles in the Due Process of Life and Law,” 87 Harvard Law Review 1, 7 (1973).
“As a matter of constitutional interpretation and judicial method, Roe borders on the indefensible. I say this as someone utterly committed to the right to choose, as someone who believes such a right has grounding elsewhere in the Constitution instead of where Roe placed it, and as someone who loved Roe’s author like a grandfather.”
….

“What, exactly, is the problem with Roe? The problem, I believe, is that it has little connection to the Constitutional right it purportedly interpreted. A constitutional right to privacy broad enough to include abortion has no meaningful foundation in constitutional text, history, or precedent - at least, it does not if those sources are fairly described and reasonably faithfully followed.”
Edward Lazarus: “The Lingering Problems with Roe v. Wade, and Why the Recent Senate Hearings on Michael McConnell’s Nomination Only Underlined Them,” FindLaw Legal Commentary, Oct. 3, 2002
“[A]s a matter of constitutional interpretation, even most liberal jurisprudes — if you administer truth serum — will tell you it is basically indefensible."
“Liberals, Don’t Make Her an Icon” Washington Post July 10, 2003.
“(I)t is time to admit in public that, as an example of the practice of constitutional opinion writing, Roe is a serious disappointment. You will be hard-pressed to find a constitutional law professor, even among those who support the idea of constitutional protection for the right to choose, who will embrace the opinion itself rather than the result.

“This is not surprising. As constitutional argument, Roe is barely coherent. The court pulled its fundamental right to choose more or less from the constitutional ether. It supported that right via a lengthy, but purposeless, cross-cultural historical review of abortion restrictions and a tidy but irrelevant refutation of the straw-man argument that a fetus is a constitutional ‘person’ entited to the protection of the 14th Amendment.
….

“By declaring an inviolable fundamental right to abortion, Roe short-circuited the democratic deliberation that is the most reliable method of deciding questions of competing values.”
Kermit Roosevelt: “Shaky Basis for a Constitutional ‘Right’,” Washington Post, January 22, 2003.
“Although I am pro-choice, I was taught in law school, and still believe, that Roe v. Wade is a muddle of bad reasoning and an authentic example of judicial overreaching. I also believe it was a political disaster for liberals. Roe is what first politicized religious conservatives while cutting off a political process that was legalizing abortion state by state anyway.”
Michael Kinsley: “The Right’s Kind of Activism,” Washington Post, November 14, 2004.



Seems I hit a nerve. A sure sign I must be on to something...
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      06-10-2008, 07:49 PM   #84
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Seems I hit a nerve. A sure sign I must be on to something...
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      06-10-2008, 09:57 PM   #85
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So a family of 4 where mom is a NYC teacher with 15years of experience and dad is a NYC police sergeant would not be a middle class family?
And how do those make >200k/yr (together)???
WHat planet do you live at?
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      06-11-2008, 12:37 AM   #86
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Sorry bub, but making more than $200k per year is NOT middle class. Period.
Please point me to where BO defines middle class as people making less than $200,000 a year?

In fact, when he speaks about Middle class relief, he is talking about families making less than $50,000.
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archi...18/366812.aspx

WHich means, higher taxes for people making more than $50,000 to support these welfare queens.
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      06-11-2008, 12:49 AM   #87
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There is absolutely no evidence that Bush had any role in the awarding of any no-bid contracts or that they were awarded to friends or supporters. Often no-bid contracts are awarded when there is an immediate need to a specific service, there is a history of a contractor providing such service, and as in the case of those awarded to KBR, a dearth of viable competitors in the field.
You should read the points that Rep Kucinich in his ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT OF PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH that he is forcing the Congress to vote on. Esp the details in Article One.

http://kucinich.house.gov/News/Docum...cumentID=93581

At least he has the balls to take Bush to task.
The others like Nancy Pilosi and Harry Reid are impotent incompetent Dem leaders. They won the Congress and what have they accomplished in the past 2 years? ZILCH!!!

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Don't you think it is a little early to judge the results in Iraq. Every day the elected government gets stronger, the insurgency grows weaker, and popular support for both the Shia and Sunni extremists declines.
Actually, I actually think the Surge is working. And it was McCains idea to push Bush to send more troops. THe problem is not the war in Iraq. It is how Rumsfeld executed it. With his firing, and with Gen Petraeus, the situation has gotten better. But it is no thanks to Rumsfeld.
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      06-11-2008, 11:06 AM   #88
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This was a pretty good post by Amy46:
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I've just checked out the new anti-Obama site "justsaynodeal.com" and my suspicions that the Obama people are manipulating the internet along with the media are hardening into conviction and that the goal of the Obama campaign is to silence all voices but their own. Most of us who have gotten involved in reading blogs and commentary during this campaign have noticed the appalling hate speech that follows Obama supporters around. They don't debate. They vilify and lie. They wish death to anyone who disagrees with them. On this string, I asserted that Obama was a Marxist, not just in his stated positions and "vision" for this country, but in his double-think, candidacy of "victimhood" and outright lies. Associations DO matter in politics. They matter a lot. His campaign staff is loaded with Marxist, Stalinists and Maoists. If this man were just a regular person wanting a Top Secret clearance for a job, he couldn't get one. If he wanted to work in a nuclear power plant, he couldn't get a clearance to do so. If he wanted to become a NY cop, he couldn't be hired. Why? Take just a little time to review this man, his campaign and just who is putting him in the White House. This man is as scary as I thought (and the site I'm sending you to is a DEMOCRAT site and no amount of lieing by Obama posters can change that). Read this and consider ANY option that makes this guy Commander in Chief with a legislature full of people willing to do anything he proposes, and then consider where our country and our freedom will be. Putting the toothpaste back in the tube will be almost impossible. Go read http://obamawtf.blogspot.com/2008/06...rnet-with.html
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