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      06-06-2008, 07:06 AM   #1
footie
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M5Board.com RS4 vs M3 CSL 'the rematch'



Equal power to weight and yet the awd transmission doesn't seem to be hurting the RS4 one single bit, beating the CSL and without it's benefit of a much quicker gear shift afforded by SMG.
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      06-06-2008, 07:49 AM   #2
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Why does the RS4 start so far ahead? Didn't really seem like a race at all.
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      06-06-2008, 08:04 AM   #3
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I agree and thought the same at first but then after thinking a little I realized that it didn't matter because the CSL didn't put anything back, proving that the RS4 on this occasion at least had the better of the CSL.
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      06-08-2008, 10:06 AM   #4
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Do you want to hear about the blue RS4 I repeatedly ran circles around recently? It was no contest, and reminded me of why I got the M3…
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      06-08-2008, 10:12 AM   #5
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RS4 is nice but it ran out of production and the new B8 platform with better engine will hopefully make it a true contender to the New M3. However, given the history, they will debut the RS4 when the m3 is about to go out.
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      06-08-2008, 11:10 AM   #6
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Actually we drove twice. First time the Rs4 got the start first and its the race posted above. In second race the start was more even and both rs4 and M3 CSL were closer but the RS4 was slighly ahead but the distance didnt get larger or smaller. Two equal cars in straightline is my conclusion after two race were the Rs4 is quicker in the beginning but in speed the CSL is slightly faster but can't catch up.

Last edited by Just_me; 06-08-2008 at 11:25 AM.
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      06-08-2008, 01:24 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_me View Post
Actually we drove twice. First time the Rs4 got the start first and its the race posted above. In second race the start was more even and both rs4 and M3 CSL were closer but the RS4 was slighly ahead but the distance didnt get larger or smaller. Two equal cars in straightline is my conclusion after two race were the Rs4 is quicker in the beginning but in speed the CSL is slightly faster but can't catch up.
Thanks for posting.

What you are stating seems to match what everyone I have spoken to thinks happened in the video. The surprise or should I say realisation is that both post an equal PTW but one (RS4) is meant to have a less than efficient driving train because it's awd. Clearly on this occasion at least that was not the case.

Don't know if that makes you feel better or worse.
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      06-08-2008, 01:45 PM   #8
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If you recall the SMG II in the CSL does not significantly out shift a human. The shift times for SMG II are just about the same as a very fast human shifter, maybe a bit faster and more consistent, about 0.2 - 0.25 seconds. Similarly their power to weight are close but definitely not the same. I calculate 8.9 for the RS4 and 8.5 for the CSL.
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      06-08-2008, 02:56 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
If you recall the SMG II in the CSL does not significantly out shift a human. The shift times for SMG II are just about the same as a very fast human shifter, maybe a bit faster and more consistent, about 0.2 - 0.25 seconds. Similarly their power to weight are close but definitely not the same. I calculate 8.9 for the RS4 and 8.5 for the CSL.
My post was not so much that the PTW was identical, one is 251hp/tonne and the other 256hp/tonne in favour of the CSL. It was more to highlight this opinion that awd saps mountains of power through it's drivetrain and clearly that is not the case, or should I say not here on this occasion and with these two stock cars.

P.S.

I was under the impression that the SMG in the CSL shifted quicker than a stock M3 wih SMG. Is this not the case?
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      06-08-2008, 11:11 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
My post was not so much that the PTW was identical, one is 251hp/tonne and the other 256hp/tonne in favour of the CSL. It was more to highlight this opinion that awd saps mountains of power through it's drivetrain and clearly that is not the case, or should I say not here on this occasion and with these two stock cars.

P.S.

I was under the impression that the SMG in the CSL shifted quicker than a stock M3 wih SMG. Is this not the case?
A small revision to my P/W, I think we were both wrong. I think I used an inaccurate weight spec above.

Audi USA web site 3957/420 = 9.4
CSL 3054/360 = 8.5

Could the Audi be significantly lighter in the EU?

Evidence that SMG II shifts in .2-.25 seconds here. By the way I have posted this link and referred to it quite a few times.
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      06-08-2008, 11:20 PM   #11
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Ummm, how is a M3 CSL going to out drag a 420hp RS4?


A road course is a different story. CSL has the RS4 by 8 seconds on the Nurburgring.
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      06-09-2008, 12:09 AM   #12
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"Smash the gas"? That sounds violent man...
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      06-09-2008, 11:12 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
A small revision to my P/W, I think we were both wrong. I think I used an inaccurate weight spec above.

Audi USA web site 3957/420 = 9.4
CSL 3054/360 = 8.5

Could the Audi be significantly lighter in the EU?

Evidence that SMG II shifts in .2-.25 seconds here. By the way I have posted this link and referred to it quite a few times.
In Europe the RS4 weighs in at 3795lbs (1650+75Kgs), not sure exactly the weight of the CSL but they quote the PTW at 256hp/tonne.

The only reason I mentioned the CSL having a quicker shift pattern than the normal M3 is because a friend commented on this very fact some years ago after being loaned a normal M3 while his was in the work-shop. But in any case his comments were not the first time I had heard something similar. Maybe someone else with a CSL can possibly confirm if this is indeed the case.

The one thing SMG will have over a manual is perfect shifts every time with no missed shifts which often happen in the heat of a race, especially with Quattro. So if the perfect manual shift can match a SMG then double it for the RS4.

The fact remains that this result goes against the basic maths that awd saps more power because of the extra drive components involved. By right the CSL should in theory walk the RS4 and I bet swampie if you put all the info available into your sim it will agree. Again this is not the first time the results from pretty equal PTW cars have produced pretty equal results, in fact the RS4 and M3 on the most part produce roughly the same results, give or take a tenth or two. It a hard one to work out because dynos don't seem to cope with awd cars that well and almost always reveal poorer than expected figures for quattro cars and awd cars in general.
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      06-10-2008, 04:04 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJetE90 View Post
Ummm, how is a M3 CSL going to out drag a 420hp RS4?


A road course is a different story. CSL has the RS4 by 8 seconds on the Nurburgring.
Actually CSL has the RS4 by 19 seconds.
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      06-12-2008, 10:00 PM   #15
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The RS4 owner must've been bitter about losing during the summer...so he must've come back with some secret mods
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      06-13-2008, 03:51 AM   #16
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The RS4 owner must've been bitter about losing during the summer...so he must've come back with some secret mods

Possible but I don't believe that happened. Also I don't believe the RS4 was the same car, this title of the video and thread might be confusing on this, sorry about that.

The thing is that these occasions are there is numerous reviews and tests, regardless of the mode of drivetrain be it awd or rwd it's the PTW that is most telling and when two cars are similar on this the results show this. I think the dyno figures are a bit of a myth, or possible mislead slightly.
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