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      06-05-2008, 01:20 PM   #23
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Quote:
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The stock market generally performs better under a Democratic administration.

Thus, I vote democratic.
What doesn't?
Ah, yes, money wasting does not...
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      06-05-2008, 02:00 PM   #24
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The stock market generally performs better under a Democratic administration.
Would actual data to support this contention be too much to ask?
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      06-05-2008, 02:02 PM   #25
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sometimes i suspect ganeil still lives in the 70's
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      06-05-2008, 02:04 PM   #26
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hundreds of years of american progress destroyed in 8 years
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      06-05-2008, 02:04 PM   #27
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well 7 years, coz bush was fucking around for the first 9 months playing with his dick and taking vacations
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      06-05-2008, 02:07 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by ///Mantis View Post
sometimes i suspect ganeil still lives in the 70's
Were you even alive in the 70's?
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      06-05-2008, 02:15 PM   #29
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no, but that's how retarded u sound
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      06-05-2008, 02:38 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keto View Post
The stock market generally performs better under a Democratic administration.

Thus, I vote democratic.
As an investor you must love Obama's 30% Capital Gains then?
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      06-05-2008, 02:43 PM   #31
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no, but that's how retarded u sound
The 70's were a sad chapter in our history. We surrendered to an enemy that could not defeat us on the battlefield, abandoned our allies to be slaughtered because we lacked the will to complete what we started, and elected an inexperienced politician who promised hope and change to the most powerful office in the world and watched him fail miserably.
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      06-05-2008, 03:15 PM   #32
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I guess, the 90s were a sad chapter too?
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      06-05-2008, 03:37 PM   #33
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How anyone can defend Bush's presidency kills me. Talk about low expectations.
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      06-05-2008, 03:45 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3This View Post
As an investor you must love Obama's 30% Capital Gains then?
*While Mr. Obama said he had not settled on how high to raise the capital gains rates, he added that he would “adjust the top dividends and capital gains rate to something closer to — but no greater than — the rates Ronald Reagan set in 1986.” Later, aides said the top rates would be 20 percent to 28 percent. Most people now pay 15 percent on capital gains, with lower-income people eligible for a 5 percent rate.

If i were in the higher bracket, I wouldnt mind rolling back on taxes to get this country back on the right track. Heck, I would much prefer to have a strong economy than to have the economy stimulus checks. The tax breaks that Bush gave to the wealthy were given at the wrong time. You cant decrease taxes and fight a war and expect for the economy not to suffer. Besides, if you want to improve the economy, give money to those who need the money to live and support their families.

*Finally, by eliminating income taxes for older Americans earning less than $50,000 a year, Mr. Obama said 22 million people would no longer need to file an income tax return. And seven million Americans, he said, would receive a tax cut of about $1,400*

* http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/19/us...s/19obama.html
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      06-05-2008, 03:48 PM   #35
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How anyone can defend Bush's presidency kills me. Talk about low expectations.
How anyone can support an inexperienced, freshman senator, not even four years out of the Illinois state legislature with zero legislative achievements for the highest office in the land kills me.

Talk about low expectations.
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      06-05-2008, 03:54 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lyndon_h View Post
*While Mr. Obama said he had not settled on how high to raise the capital gains rates, he added that he would “adjust the top dividends and capital gains rate to something closer to — but no greater than — the rates Ronald Reagan set in 1986.” Later, aides said the top rates would be 20 percent to 28 percent. Most people now pay 15 percent on capital gains, with lower-income people eligible for a 5 percent rate.

If i were in the higher bracket, I wouldnt mind rolling back on taxes to get this country back on the right track. Heck, I would much prefer to have a strong economy than to have the economy stimulus checks. The tax breaks that Bush gave to the wealthy were given at the wrong time. You cant decrease taxes and fight a war and expect for the economy not to suffer. Besides, if you want to improve the economy, give money to those who need the money to live and support their families.

*Finally, by eliminating income taxes for older Americans earning less than $50,000 a year, Mr. Obama said 22 million people would no longer need to file an income tax return. And seven million Americans, he said, would receive a tax cut of about $1,400*

* http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/19/us...s/19obama.html
We all know NYT is a democratic rag ... just like Fox News is a pro republican and I like how you proved my point ... 28%! .... they say 20-28% but thats just so it doesnt sound so bad for the election.

Capital Gains will be closer to the 28% under Obama .... and no I dont like paying money for people on wellfair that wont get off their ass and get a job.

Yes the rates will be similar to that of Regan but the 80s also suffered from Regan's polices (after he was out of office ... it takes 4-6 years for past polices to fully show effects on the economy). Ask any Economist about what they think about Regan.

I deal with extreamly wealthy people on a daily basis and they are not worried one bit about the capital gains, because for the rich rich their are many loop holes and always will be (you think Obama, Hilary, Bush, or any politician will make a policy that affects their financial well being? yea right). Its the middle class and upper middle class (which Im guessing most of the people are on here) that take it in the ass.
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      06-05-2008, 04:02 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3This View Post
We all know NYT is a democratic rag ... just like Fox News is a pro republican....

....I deal with extreamly wealthy people on a daily basis and they are not worried one bit about the capital gains, because for the rich rich their are many loop holes and always will be (you think Obama, Hilary, Bush, or any politician will make a policy that affects their financial well being? yea right). Its the middle class and upper middle class (which Im guessing most of the people are on here) that take it in the ass.
I agree with you about the NYT being pro Demo, but I don't think that's enough to refute what he (Obama) has stated. You said it would be 30%, he said it'd be 20-28% (roughly 30), so we are essentially agreeing.

I also agree with you 100000000% about the rich being OK and the upper middle class taking in the ass. His proposed capital gains tax is for the top 5% of Americans and is estimated to effect those with over $500,000 in capital gains/year. IF you make more than $500,000 a year profit from investments, you can afford to help the country get on track. Kinda like Buffet saying that he should be paying much more taxes than he has to

You shouldnt get special treatment for being rich.
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      06-05-2008, 04:14 PM   #38
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so how about this site...

http://www.hightowerlowdown.org/node/1603
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      06-05-2008, 04:15 PM   #39
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Quote:
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How anyone can support an inexperienced, freshman senator, not even four years out of the Illinois state legislature with zero legislative achievements for the highest office in the land kills me.

Talk about low expectations.
Really. I'll list his US Senate (2005 - 2007) Accomplishments below. He's been busier than you though. He has written 890 Bills and Co-sponsored Another 1096 since he started serving in the U.S. Senate.

His Illinois accomplishments are quite a bit longer. I'll list them or provide a link in my next post.


*I found the BEEF - Obama's Senate Record
by Helenann

Senator Obama has sponsored or co-sponsored 570 bills in the 109th and 110th Congress.

Senator Obama has sponsored or co-sponsored 15 bills that have become LAW since he joined the Senate in 2005.

Senator Obama has also introduced amendments to 50 bills, of which 16 were adopted by the Senate.

His record is in fact quite impressive for a junior Senator from Illinois.

Details below the fold.

Helenann's diary :: ::
Below I summarize Senator Obama's legislative record in the US Senate.

First I list the bills he sponsored that have become law.

Next I summarize the bills that he has sponsored or cosponsored since he became a US Senator in 2005.

I have only included major pieces of legislation and have not summarized continuing resolutions or naming post offices, for example.

His record suggests several priorities and the bills he supports address many of our most pressing problems.

Most of his legislative effort has been in the area of Energy Efficiency and Climate Change (25 bills), health care (21 bills) and public health (20 bills), consumer protection/labor (14 bills), the needs of Veterans and the Armed Forces (13 bills), Congressional Ethics and Accountability (12 bills), Foreign Policy (10 bills) Voting and Elections (9 bills), Education (7 bills), Hurricane Katrina Relief (6), the Environment (5 bills), Homeland Security (4 bills), and discrimination (4 bills).

Of the 15 bills Senator Obama sponsored or co-sponsored in 2005-7 that became law:

Two addressed foreign policy:
Promote relief, security and democracy in the Congo (2125)
Develop democratic institutions in areas under Palestinian control (2370).

Three addressed public health:
Improve mine safety (2803)
Increased breast cancer funding (597)
Reduce preterm delivery and complications, reduce infant mortality (707).

Two addressed openness and accountability in government:
Strengthening the Freedom of Information Act (2488)
Full disclosure of all entities receiving federal funds (2590)

Two addressed national security
Extend Terrorist Risk Insurance (467)
Amend the Patriot Act (2167)

One addressed the needs of the Armed Forces
Wave passport fees to visit graves, attend memorials/funerals of veterans abroad (1184).

Of the 570 bills Senator Obama introduced into the Senate during the 109th and 110th Congress (Senate Bill numbers are in parentheses), they can be summarized as follows:

25 addressed Energy Efficiency and Climate Change
Suspend royalty relief for oil and gas (115)
Reduce dependence on oil; use of alternative energy sources (133)
Increase fuel economy standards for cars (767, 768)
Auto industry incentives for fuel efficient vehicles (1151)
Reduce green house gas emissions (1324)
Establish at NSF a climate change education program (1389)
Increase renewable content of gasoline (2202)
Energy emergency relief for small businesses and farms (269)
Strategic gasoline and fuel reserves (1794)
Alternative diesel standards (3554)
Coal to liquid fuel promotion (3623)
Renewable diesel standards (1920)
Reducing global warming pollution from vehicles (2555)
Fuel security and consumer choice (1994, 2025)
Alternative energy refueling system (2614)
Climate change education (1389)
Low income energy assistance (2405)
Oil savings targets (339)
Fuel economy reform (3694)
Plug-in electric drive vehicles (1617)
Nuclear release notice (2348)
Passenger rail investment (294)
Energy relief for low income families (2405)

21 addressed Health Care
Drug re-importation (334)
Health information technology (1262, 1418)
Discount drug prices (2347)
Health care associated infections (2278)
Hospital quality report cards (692, 1824)
Medical error disclosure and compensation (1784)
Emergency medical care and response (1873)
Stem cell research (5)
Medical Malpractice insurance (1525)
Health centers renewal (901, 3771)
Children’s health insurance (401)
Home health care (2061)
Medicare independent living (2103)
Microbicides for HIV/AIDS (823)
Ovarian cancer biomarker research (2569)
Gynological cancers (1172)
Access to personalized medicine through use of human genome (976)
Paralysis research and care (1183)

20 addressed Public Health:
Violence against women (1197)
Biodefense and pandemic preparedness and response (1821, 1880)
Viral influenza control (969)
End homelessness (1518)
Reduce STDs/unintended pregnancy (1790)
Smoking prevention and tobacco control (625)
Minority health improvement and disparity elimination (4024)
Nutrition and physical education in schools (2066)
Health impact assessments (1067, 2506)
Healthy communities (1068)
Combat methamphetamines (2071)
Paid sick leave (910)
Prohibit mercury sales (833, 1818)
Prohibit sale of lead products (1306, 2132)
Lead exposure in children (1811, 2132)

14 address Consumer Protection/Labor
Stop unfair labor practices (842)
Fair minimum wage (2, 1062, 2725, 3829)
Internet freedom (2917)
Credit card safety (2411)
Media ownership (2332)
Protecting taxpayer privacy (2484)
Working family child assistance (218)
Habeus Corpus Restoration (185)
Bankruptcy protection for employees and retirees (2092)
FAA fair labor management dispute resolution (2201)
Working families flexibility (2419).

13 addressed the Needs of Veterans and the Armed Forces:
Improve Benefits (117)
Suicide prevention (479)
Needs of homeless veterans (1180)
Homes for veterans (1084)
GI Bill enhancement (43)
Military job protection
Dignity in care for wounded vets (713)
Housing assistance for low income veterans (1084)
Military children in public schools (2151)
Military eye injury research and care (1999)
Research physical/mental health needs from Iraq War (1271)
Proper administration of discharge for personality disorder (1817, 1885)
Security of personal data of veterans (3592)

12 addressed Congressional Ethics and Accountability
Lobbying and ethics reform (230)
Stop fraud (2280)
Legislative transparency and accountability (525)
Open government (2180, 2488)
Restoring fiscal discipline (10)
Transparency and integrity in earmarks (2261)
Accountability of conference committee deliberations and reports (2179)
Federal funding accountability and transparency (2590)
Accountability and oversight for private security functions under Federal
contract (674)
Accountability for contractors and personnel under federal contracts
(2147) Resctrictions awarding government contracts (2519)

10 addressed Foreign Policy:
Iraq war de-escalation (313)
US policy for Iraq (433),
Divestiture from Iran (1430)
Sudan divestment authorization (831)
Millennium Development Goals (2433)
Multilateral debt relief (1320)
Development bank reform (1129)
Nuclear nonproliferation (3131,977,2224).

9 address Voting/Elections
Prohibit deceptive practices in Federal elections (453)
Voter access to polls and services in Federal elections (737)
Voter intimidation and deceptive practices (1975)
Senate campaign disclosure parity (185)
Require reporting for bundled campaign contributions (2030)
Election jamming prevention (4102)
Campaign disclosure parity (223)
Presidential funding (2412)
Integrity of electronic voting systems (1487)

11 addressed Education
Increase access of low income African Americans to higher education (1513)
Establish teaching residency programs (1574)
Increase early intervention services (2111)
Middle school curriculum improvements (2227)
Public database of scholarships, fellowships and financial aid (2428)
Summer learning programs (116)
TANF financial education promotion (924)
Higher education (1642)
Build capacity at community colleges (379)
Campus law enforcement in emergencies (1228)
Support for teachers (2060).

6 addressed Hurrican Katrina
Hurricane Katrina recovery (2319)
Emergency relief (1637)
Bankruptcy relief and community protection (1647)
Working family tax relief (2257)
Fair wages for recovery workers (1749)
Gulf coast infrastructure redevelopment (1836)

5 addressed the Environment
Drinking water security (218, 1426)
Water resources development (728)
Waste water treatment (1995)
Combat illegal logging (1930)
Spent nuclear fuel tracking and Acountability (1194)
Asian Carp Prevention and Control Act (Introduced in Senate)[S.726.IS ]

4 addressed Discrimination
Claims for civil class action based on discrimination (1989)
Domestic partnership benefits (2521)
Unresolved civil rights crimes (535)
Equality or two parent families (2286)

4 addressed Homeland Security
Judicial review of FISA orders (2369)
National emergency family locator (1630)
Amend US Patriot Act (2167)
Chemical security and safety (2486)


http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/20...783/290/461422


The label of inexperienced is so lame when the person you are referring to is obviously talented. It reminds me of what they used to say about Tiger Woods. Is not his fault that his learning curve is so much more abbreviated than others.
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      06-05-2008, 04:31 PM   #40
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OK. I've gotten lazy on his state accomplishments, but here's a summary:

During the first 8 (eight) years of his elected service he sponsored over 820 (eight hundred twenty) bills. He introduced 233 (two hundred thirty-three) regarding healthcare reform,

125 on poverty and public assistance,
112 crime fighting bills,
97 economic bills,
60 human rights and anti-discrimination bills,
21 ethics reform bills,
15 gun control,
6 veterans affairs and many others.

http://www.democraticunderground.com...ss=132x4578207

And today it was announced that not only he, but the whole DNC would no longer be accepting lobby or pac money.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/0..._n_105407.html

But, he's only speeches, right?
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      06-05-2008, 04:33 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lyndon_h View Post
The label of inexperienced is so lame when the person you are referring to is obviously talented. It reminds me of what they used to say about Tiger Woods. Is not his fault that his learning curve is so much more abbreviated than others.
You seem to be really up on Barack Obama (and presumably the Democrat party). Perhaps you would know who this is who was speaking in this audio clip found on this forum. If nothing else, you might find it interesting as it deals with your point.
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      06-05-2008, 04:54 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by lyndon_h View Post
Really. I'll list his US Senate (2005 - 2007) Accomplishments below. He's been busier than you though. He has written 890 Bills and Co-sponsored Another 1096 since he started serving in the U.S. Senate...


http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/20...783/290/461422
Here is the actual list of bills sponsored by Obama that became law:

110th Congress, Obama: None


109th Congress, Obama:

S.2125 : A bill to promote relief, security, and democracy in the Democratic Republic of the Congo.Sponsor: Sen Obama, Barack [IL] (introduced 12/16/2005) Latest Major Action: Became Public Law No: 109-456

S.3757 : A bill to designate the facility of the United States Postal Service located at 950 Missouri Avenue in East St. Louis, Illinois, as the "Katherine Dunham Post Office Building". Sponsor: Sen Obama, Barack [IL] (introduced 7/27/2006) Note: For further action, see H.R.5929, which became Public Law 109-333 on 10/12/2006.

Listing bills he was a co-sponsor of is a joke since 99 out of 100 times that simply means he thought the bill was a good idea, not that he did any actual work on it.

So, I'm glad he is concerned with democracy in the Congo (but wants to abandon the people fighting for it in Iraq??) and the Post Office in East St. Louis but a meaningful legislative history it is not.
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      06-05-2008, 05:02 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
You seem to be really up on Barack Obama (and presumably the Democrat party). Perhaps you would know who this is who was speaking in this audio clip found on this forum. If nothing else, you might find it interesting as it deals with your point.
I suppose you are talking about the difference in net delegates when winning states? If so, its not as hard to understand as the whiny man on the audio is suggesting. The name of the game is delegates, not popular vote in a state. Arguing about the popular vote is like saying that your team should have won the basketball game because they had more rebounds than the other team. As you are aware, each state is divided by congressional districts, for simplicity's sake like pretend that the state of Texas has 2 congressional districts (district A and B).
Lets say that somehow the district of A contains Dallas and district B contains alot of rural districts.

Lets also pretend that district A has 2 million people and district 4 million. For sake of argument, lets say that 100% of people in district A voted Democratic in 2004 and only 50% voted democratic the same year. In this case district A would get X delegates (lets say 10). District B would also get 10 eventhough there are more people. They would get the same amount based on the concentration of democratic voters. If 100% of the democrats vote democrat in 2008, and 75% of people vote democratic in district B, then you have a situation where the winner of district A is allotted 10 delegates (with 2M votes) and the winner of district B only gets 7.5 delegates.

I agree that its more complicated that it has to be, but the rules were set a long time ago. And someone with the experience to lead on day 1, like HRC, should have devised a smarter strategy. HRC's biggest mistake was to count on the race being finished by Feb 5th.

I hope i didnt' ramble too much. I had alot of interuptions during the writing of this explanation.
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      06-05-2008, 05:28 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Here is the actual list of bills sponsored by Obama that became law:

110th Congress, Obama: None


109th Congress, Obama:




S.2125 : A bill to promote relief, security, and democracy in the Democratic Republic of the Congo.Sponsor: Sen Obama, Barack [IL] (introduced 12/16/2005) Latest Major Action: Became Public Law No: 109-456

S.3757 : A bill to designate the facility of the United States Postal Service located at 950 Missouri Avenue in East St. Louis, Illinois, as the "Katherine Dunham Post Office Building". Sponsor: Sen Obama, Barack [IL] (introduced 7/27/2006) Note: For further action, see H.R.5929, which became Public Law 109-333 on 10/12/2006.

Listing bills he was a co-sponsor of is a joke since 99 out of 100 times that simply means he thought the bill was a good idea, not that he did any actual work on it.

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I agree, co-sponsoring a bill is not that big of deal. But what of the 890 bills he authored in 2 years? The fact is that he has been one of the most accomplished senators since 2005. Its like saying that Tiger is not as good because he hasn't won as many majors as Jack Nicolas. Does he have the most experience of anyone in the senate, no. If that were the best qualifier for President then Senator Byrd would win the presidency.

The things you must know to be a good senator are:
1. parliamentary procedure (I learned this in high school. I have an idea that was probably able to grasp this concept in the Ill state senate.
2. how to get you agenda passed by working with others. (this includes the ability to figure out the major players)

He has shown that he has mastered those abilities. And i would expect him to be a much better president than Bush. I think we can look at his past accomplishments from childhood to now and tell that he is an over achiever. The same cannot be said about GWBush. I'm not sure how anyone could look at GWBush's past and expect anything but what we are witnessing now.

Quote:
So, I'm glad he is concerned with democracy in the Congo (but wants to abandon the people fighting for it in Iraq??) and the Post Office in East St. Louis but a meaningful legislative history it is not.
I think its a disgrace for you to even try to make the naive comparison of pre-war Iraq and whats going on Congo where almost 6Million people have died since 1998. Really, you should be ashamed.
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