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      05-30-2008, 07:41 AM   #1
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Exclamation Police chief says time to talk to al Qaeda

LONDON (Reuters) - Britain should negotiate with the leaders of al Qaeda to end its campaign of violence, a senior police officer said on Friday.

Sir Hugh Orde, head of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, said his force's experience of tackling the IRA showed that policing alone would not defeat al Qaeda-inspired terrorism.

In an interview with the Guardian newspaper, Orde said: "If you want my professional assessment of any terrorism campaign, what fixes it is talking and engaging and judging when the conditions are right for that to take place.

"Is that a naive statement? I don't think it is ... It is the reality of what we face.


"If somebody can show me any terrorism campaign where it has been policed out, I'd be happy to read about it, because I can't think of one."

In Northern Ireland, the British army and Royal Ulster Constabulary could not bring an end to 30 years of violence.

The provinces "troubles" were only ended by a peace process that saw enemies like Gerry Adams and Ian Paisley talking to each other.

(Reporting by Jennifer Hill; editing by Stephen Addison)
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      05-30-2008, 07:46 AM   #2
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I have to say I agree to some extent. Look at it this way. September 11th is NOT the route of the dispute at all. The media would like us to think so, but that's not the case. The dispute between groups like Al-Qaeda is decades old.

How can more violence stop anything? The illegal occupation of Iraq has actually spread MORE hatred and INCREASED terrorism.

Also, think of it this way. These terrorists were brought up with mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters like anyone else. What would make them give their blood and give up their family lives except for beliefs they might have? Those beliefs are nothing to do with having 70 virgins in heaven. That's just rubbish. Do we really believe all of these terrorists are driven by a passion for sex with 70 virgins?

No. They have demands. That's why most people give their blood. We have to sit down and talk to them and see what they want. Noone's saying we have to meet their demands, we would have demands of them too and perhaps some their demands we cant give them. But the peace process has to start by talking to them.

I dont think it'll happen though. How can we after Bush and Blair use the most foul terms to describe terrorists even though they are the biggest terrorists? the UK and USA would never "lower" themselves to talk to terrorists.
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      05-30-2008, 07:57 AM   #3
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Actually it is quite naive to think that al-Qaeda would negotiate and come to a compromise. They aren't a nation battling with another nation over territory or something. They are a group of people who hate who we are. They are extremists and think that they are right and everyone else is wrong, and that they must destroy anyone who doesn't believe similarly. The only compromise they would take is to be handed the keys to the world. Reasoning is lost with such people, otherwise just saying to let everyone have their own religion, as long as it makes them happy, would have worked a long time ago.
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      05-30-2008, 08:18 AM   #4
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I dont think it is impossbile. The reason is that the Israel/Palestine issue is one of the route causes of the dispute. Iraq just added to the dispute.

Most muslims live peacefully with non-muslims. Our Quran even says you cant FORCE Islam on to people, so that arguement that Al-Queda is going to covert or kill everyone is just bull.

I dont think its totally impossible to reason with them. They have already expressed what their demands are. Most of which non-muslims can undestand too. If you had a world vote on the Iraq war you would see that MOST people are against it. A lot more people are understanding the Israel/Palestine situation too now.
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      05-30-2008, 08:20 AM   #5
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Also, the Iraq war didnt find any WMD and has increased terrorism and fueled the dispute between Al-Queda and us even more.

So if wars/violence isnt solving anything, and we cant talk to terrorists AT ALL, what do you propose we do? (serious question, not sarcasm)
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      05-30-2008, 08:54 AM   #6
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Also, the Iraq war didnt find any WMD and has increased terrorism and fueled the dispute between Al-Queda and us even more.
It did find mass graves full of Muslims killed by Saddam though, didn't it?

How much more enflamed is the dispute now than when the flew airplanes full of civilians into buildings full of civilians?

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So if wars/violence isnt solving anything, and we cant talk to terrorists AT ALL, what do you propose we do? (serious question, not sarcasm)
Kill them until they stop committing terrorism.
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      05-30-2008, 08:55 AM   #7
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How would you solve the Israeli/Arab dispute?

Would that solution be acceptable to Hamas?

Which of al Qaeda's demands should we compromise on?
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      05-30-2008, 09:00 AM   #8
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Actually it is quite naive to think that al-Qaeda would negotiate and come to a compromise. They aren't a nation battling with another nation over territory or something. They are a group of people who hate who we are. They are extremists and think that they are right and everyone else is wrong, and that they must destroy anyone who doesn't believe similarly. The only compromise they would take is to be handed the keys to the world. Reasoning is lost with such people, otherwise just saying to let everyone have their own religion, as long as it makes them happy, would have worked a long time ago.
I've read over Al-qaidas manifestos many times over. They actually have very specific demands which aren't really over the top. They dont want control of the world etc.. So don't make stuff up... Address them for who they really are and don't lie about your enemies. It only legitimizes you as a bad guy. Sunlight is the best way to defeat your enemies.

For example, the day we recognized the Soviet Union for what it was (an aging, economically backwards government rather then the 50s notion of a goliath red horde and evil people waiting in dark alleys to covert you to communists) was the day we actually won the Cold War.

Back to Al Quada, they basicly want things that will never happen and we will never do. First and foremost is they want the USA out of the middle east in every way shape and form.

That will never happen and we happen to be a superpower, so they are shit out of luck and will have to enjoy those caves for the rest of their lives.
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      05-30-2008, 09:43 AM   #9
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It did find mass graves full of Muslims killed by Saddam though, didn't it?

How much more enflamed is the dispute now than when the flew airplanes full of civilians into buildings full of civilians?



Kill them until they stop committing terrorism.
And over and over -- EMPTY CLAIMS...
You can also find MANY fresh graves full of Muslims that we simply labeled as Colleteral Damage... I would understand a few Colleteral mis-hits, but hundreds of thousands and NO ONE responsible for that??? Hundreds of thousands vs. 3000 on 9/11. Both are inhumane and should be punished, but get real robot!
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      05-30-2008, 09:52 AM   #10
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It did find mass graves full of Muslims killed by Saddam though, didn't it?

How much more enflamed is the dispute now than when the flew airplanes full of civilians into buildings full of civilians?
So we should invade and dig up every country to find out its darkest secrets? That's just rubbish Condoleezza Rice said yesterday that the MAIN reason to go to war was for the WMD, yet there werent any WMD.

Also, even IF sept 11th happened the way the media/US govt wants us to think, does that mean because terrorists do evil acts we do the same back? That's just plain stupid.

Nothing changes the fact that since the war in Iraq terrorism and hatred have INCREASED. The world is not a safer place. It's easy to say Iraq is liberated but hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and UK/US troops are DEAD and the death toll is always increasing. Iraq isnt any safer than it was under Saddam's rule.

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Kill them until they stop committing terrorism.
That's not working though, is it?

and dont forget Guantanamo Bay. We have people there who have never had any fair trial or any charge made against them, yet they are held for YEARS. What the hell is that all about?
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      05-30-2008, 09:54 AM   #11
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And over and over -- EMPTY CLAIMS...
You can also find MANY fresh graves full of Muslims that we simply labeled as Colleteral Damage... I would understand a few Colleteral mis-hits, but hundreds of thousands and NO ONE responsible for that??? Hundreds of thousands vs. 3000 on 9/11. Both are inhumane and should be punished, but get real robot!
+1

dr325i I cant believe that people are yet to see the truth about who the "enemy" is. It's not as simple as the UK/US govt and the media wants us to think it is.
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      05-30-2008, 09:57 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
I dont think it is impossbile. The reason is that the Israel/Palestine issue is one of the route causes of the dispute. Iraq just added to the dispute.

Most muslims live peacefully with non-muslims. Our Quran even says you cant FORCE Islam on to people, so that arguement that Al-Queda is going to covert or kill everyone is just bull.

I dont think its totally impossible to reason with them. They have already expressed what their demands are. Most of which non-muslims can undestand too. If you had a world vote on the Iraq war you would see that MOST people are against it. A lot more people are understanding the Israel/Palestine situation too now.
You apparently don't know what al-Qaeda is, because that's EXACTLY what they think. No one said they had a valid basis for it, but they absolutely think that it's their responsibility to rid the world of those who don't follow Allah. That's why they are called extremists.
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      05-30-2008, 10:02 AM   #13
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So we should invade and dig up every country to find out its darkest secrets? That's just rubbish Condoleezza Rice said yesterday that the MAIN reason to go to war was for the WMD, yet there werent any WMD.
There were WMD. He used them, remember? The question is what happened to them?

Quote:
Also, even IF sept 11th happened the way the media/US govt wants us to think, does that mean because terrorists do evil acts we do the same back? That's just plain stupid.
Even if??

No, we invite them over for tea.

Quote:
Nothing changes the fact that since the war in Iraq terrorism and hatred have INCREASED. The world is not a safer place. It's easy to say Iraq is liberated but hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and UK/US troops are DEAD and the death toll is always increasing. Iraq isnt any safer than it was under Saddam's rule.



That's not working though, is it?
B.C. researchers find decline in global terrorism, question previous data

May 21, 2008

VANCOUVER — A group of researchers from Simon Fraser University says global terrorism is on the decline, despite previous data and public perceptions that suggest otherwise.

The university's Human Security Report Project says fatalities from terrorist attacks around the world have, in fact, decreased by 40 per cent since 2001.
....

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and dont forget Guantanamo Bay. We have people there who have never had any fair trial or any charge made against them, yet they are held for YEARS. What the hell is that all about?
Since when are combatants captured on a battlefield or during war entitled to a trial?
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      05-30-2008, 10:04 AM   #14
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+1

dr325i I cant believe that people are yet to see the truth about who the "enemy" is. It's not as simple as the UK/US govt and the media wants us to think it is.
I am just sick of EVERY foreign policy and situation we have created:
- The Balkans -- we created a complete mess there, and are forced (our soldiers) to live neck to neck with terrorists to keep it artificially calm...
- Afghanistan is pushed back to 16th century with no improvements lately
- Iraq is in the worst shape in last hundreds of years...
- Middle east is a constant war zone where our alies illegaly posses the WMD (that we ignore) and treat the other side worse that animals...

We need to mind our own business since we do not understand the cultures we try to change... If it were that way, the 9/11 would have never happened and the whole world would have had way more respect for the USA...
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      05-30-2008, 11:30 AM   #15
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You apparently don't know what al-Qaeda is, because that's EXACTLY what they think. No one said they had a valid basis for it, but they absolutely think that it's their responsibility to rid the world of those who don't follow Allah. That's why they are called extremists.
I know who they are. Osama Bin Laden knows that he cannot "covert or kill" every human on this earth. Even the Muslim world would be against that. Islam doesnt permit it at all.
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      05-30-2008, 11:58 AM   #16
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There were WMD. He used them, remember? The question is what happened to them?
That's what intel is for. Now we know what intel we used to go to Iraq with. We also have statements from people who worked within the Admin like Scott McClellan who tell a very interesting story about the events leading up to the war. Let's not forget Powell warned Bush for 2.5 hours but he refused to listen and decided to march on with the Iraq war.

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Even if??

No, we invite them over for tea.
Yes "even if". Not everyone believes 9/11 happened the way the US govt told us. Their are a lot of debates about the evidence and I'm not gonna make any decision because I know how easy cover-ups can happen. Look at what happened in Iraq. No WMD's...

The tea joke was just stupid. Killing terrorists isnt working, but who said anything about going to the other extreme of being nice to them? There's nothing wrong with embracing politics and dialogue. Infact, it's sensible. Doesnt mean we're doing any ass licking.

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May 21, 2008

VANCOUVER A group of researchers from Simon Fraser University says global terrorism is on the decline, despite previous data and public perceptions that suggest otherwise.

The university's Human Security Report Project says fatalities from terrorist attacks around the world have, in fact, decreased by 40 per cent since 2001.
That's just stupid. What about July 7 2005 in London? It might not have happened if it wasnt for the Iraq war. What about the Madrid bombings in 2004? That's already a total of 243 people DEAD and 2455 people INJURED.

What about all the plots that have been uncovered and police have put a stop to? What about all the hatred that has increased? These deaths and injuries could have been avoided and that NOT including the hundreds of thousands DEAD in Iraq. Some of them are our own troops.

Here's a picture that shows the countries in which terrorism on/after september 11th has occured:



Quote:
Since when are combatants captured on a battlefield or during war entitled to a trial?
Then why have other's been convicted? Remember Richard Reid the shoe bomber? he is serving life in the US after his trial back in 2003. Also consider a UK national from Guantanamo Bay who has just been charged today:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7427767.stm
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      05-30-2008, 12:09 PM   #17
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Our Quran even says you cant FORCE Islam on to people, so that arguement that Al-Queda is going to covert or kill everyone is just bull.
It's just like the Bible, people will pick and choose what they want to listen to, and radical groups like Al'Qaeda listen the the crazy parts. They absolutely would destroy every one if us if they could because they disagree with our way of life and/or feel we have wronged them. You can't negotiate with people like that. You either change their mind through your actions or fight back. In our case the former is neigh impossible their hatred is so deep seated. That's the feel I get at least, I'm not a member so I dunno what they actually think.
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You apparently don't know what al-Qaeda is, because that's EXACTLY what they think. No one said they had a valid basis for it, but they absolutely think that it's their responsibility to rid the world of those who don't follow Allah. That's why they are called extremists.
+1
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Kill them until they stop committing terrorism.
+1
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      05-30-2008, 12:20 PM   #18
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and dont forget Guantanamo Bay. We have people there who have never had any fair trial or any charge made against them, yet they are held for YEARS. What the hell is that all about?
They have human rights, but not legal ones. They don't fall under Geneva or US law so we can basically do whatever we damn well please with them. Not saying it's right, just saying it's legal.
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I would understand a few Colleteral mis-hits, but hundreds of thousands and NO ONE responsible for that??? Hundreds of thousands vs. 3000 on 9/11. Both are inhumane and should be punished, but get real robot!
That number is bullshit and we both know it. There aren't hundreds of thousands of deaths from collateral damage.
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That's just stupid. What about July 7 2005 in London? It might not have happened if it wasnt for the Iraq war. What about the Madrid bombings in 2004? That's already a total of 243 people DEAD and 2455 people INJURED.
That's just stupid, much more than that might have happened if we hadn't tried to put an end to things. See what I did there? I made baseless hypothetical statements with no point just like you, avoid doing so again please.
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      05-30-2008, 12:22 PM   #19
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It's just like the Bible, people will pick and choose what they want to listen to, and radical groups like Al'Qaeda listen the the crazy parts. They absolutely would destroy every one if us if they could because they disagree with our way of life and/or feel we have wronged them. You can't negotiate with people like that. You either change their mind through your actions or fight back. In our case the former is neigh impossible their hatred is so deep seated. That's the feel I get at least, I'm not a member so I dunno what they actually think.
There are no crazy parts of the Quran that give any hint of that at all. We muslims have stood solid against terrorism since 9/11. Books, DVDs, public lectures, websites, events, etc. We have used EVERY means to prevent people linking Islam and terrorism.

Osama bin Laden knows he cant kill and convert everyone. It's just such a silly statement. For that you need power. He doesnt have it and never will. Not unless you're going to tell me he has a plan to take over every army on the face of the earth.

On the other points you just backed. I've already refuted them.
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      05-30-2008, 12:30 PM   #20
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That's just stupid, much more than that might have happened if we hadn't tried to put an end to things. See what I did there? I made baseless hypothetical statements with no point just like you, avoid doing so again please.
What are you talking about? If this wasnt so serious I'd laugh...

Since the Iraq war, both the US and UK govts have become very unpopular even among their own citizens. Just look at the "support" Bush is getting in the other thread, 80% are against him.

Also, think of the hatred that has increased all over the world. Tune into CNN everyday and you will see the tension and hatred spreading all over the world. If our policies were different then maybe these people from these terrorist activities since 9/11 would be ALIVE and not DEAD.

BOTTOM LINE: invading countries and trying to stop terrorism purely by force isnt working. It's just a continuous loop of us hitting them and them hitting us back and along the way innocent people are dying. As a Muslim, I've shown that saying Osama Bin Laden has plans to take over the world is JUST BULL!

We know fine well that many muslims and non-muslims, not just Al-queda, are pissed with the UK/US policies in Israel/Palestine and what's happening over in Iraq. The only difference is that these terrorists are so passionate about it they will give their blood and take blood to raise their point. Random bomb attacks isnt about taking over the world, its about making a POINT.
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      05-30-2008, 03:16 PM   #21
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Your logical fallacies are strikingly similar to other people around here. "Refuting" a point isn't restating your original point.
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If our policies were different then maybe these people from these terrorist activities since 9/11 would be ALIVE and not DEAD.
Or maybe five times as many people would be dead because of a weak/let's talk about this response to 9/11. The way you are reasoning my point is equally valid.
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      05-30-2008, 03:35 PM   #22
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Your logical fallacies are strikingly similar to other people around here. "Refuting" a point isn't restating your original point.
Sometimes to refute a silly statement all you need to do is repeat your original arguement. AJerman said Bin Laden wants to convert or kill all non-muslims. I had to refute it by restating how illogical it is.

I'll make it simple. To take over the world, you need power. Random bomb attacks on innocent civillians is to make a point, not convert or kill the whole world.


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Or maybe five times as many people would be dead because of a weak/let's talk about this response to 9/11. The way you are reasoning my point is equally valid.
The situation can be likened to when a hostage takes hostages and has certain demands. Tell me, would you go in with force knowing that the hostage taker has enough power and balls to kill innocents if you try to make a move? OR would you try to calm him and negotiate on his demands?

I can assure you that a move would ONLY be made if it was safe to do so without losing civilian lives. This is not the case with Al-Queda. We know there are plenty of young guys being brainwashed to become terrorists. So even if we wipe out a terror unit in one location another unit will just spark up and fight again. That's why we have to end this loop and talk about it.

Noone said there has to be tea/buscuits or any ass-licking. At the end of the day, we have demands and they have demands. We should work on it instead of saying that we can just wipe every terrorist out. Believe me you cant, you cant even find Bin Laden who is running around in caves with all your power.
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