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      05-29-2008, 06:53 AM   #67
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I will second that point. Although the counterpoint is the following question. Are these categories used universally in all C&D sports car comparisons? If so this partially mitigates this concern.
It is part of all C&D's comparison. But the fact is that in this particular comparison, it is a huge part of the whole outcome. 7 points to be exact. IMO in these type of comparisons, back seats and trunk space should be deleted because it really doesn't make any sense especially when it can changed the whole outcome of the test. Here's another example of it from C&D, this one is even worse i think. They gave the R8 and the AMV8 0 points because they don't have back seats and 5 points to the 997tt because it does. Now it didn't really hurt the R8 as much but it is still ridiculous either way. And again, rebates, are you kidding me.

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      05-29-2008, 09:17 AM   #68
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why would you bring the aston martin into this? I'm sure the m3 can do more than give the rolls royce phantom a run for its money. And i don't get what you mean when you say " Money being a non-issue ", Of course money is an issue.

Everyone ( including the magazine ) has ruled out the porsche because of the price so the main comparison is between the gtr and the bmw. Both of these cars were made to be killer quick cars that you can live with everyday. And its clear the bmw lost. I don't know why people are arguing about the m3 being better because of its usability, if you wanted usability get a 328 , 335. The reason anyone would consider the ///m version is because they want more power and better performance. Its pretty logical, the m division isn't there to make nice friendly couch-mobiles that can carry your family and stow a tent. The purpose of m is to take those couch-mobiles and turn them into performance monsters. So arguing that the m3 is better, not because of what the m division has put into it, but rather arguing that its the natural 3 series characteristics that make it better seems kind of insulting to bmw.

Both cars were built for speed.
Both cars were built to be user friendly everyday cars.
Both have rear seats, trunk space, sat nav, leather, a/c, etc...

but one is by far faster.

Unless you're going to argue higher quality leather on the inside and a better looking console are what you should judge a car off of, people on here make it seem as if the gtr has an interior similar to fred flinstones car.

But however if you are a brand loyalist i completely understand. The m badge does have a lot of history and passion behind it and it truly is an honor to have it bestowed on a car. I also understand if your someone 40+, datsun vs. bmw M isn't a really hard decision to make. And if your a TRUE old fashioned motor enthusiast who would rather die than use an automati tip-shiftomatic doo hickey, then i understand as well, for the money the m3 is probably one of the best driving experiences someone can purchase, fueled by bmw's long racing heritage.



Both are great cars, ones a lot faster, the other has nicer leather, an m badge, and is offered in a good old 6 speed manual.
My post was in response to a point Ruff made about how in reality we (car geeks) mostly just care about numbers. I bring up the Aston Martin because it is in no way an astonishing performer nor is its luxury beyond reproach. People pay 150-250K for an Aston Martin for more than just what its capable of on the track. If performance was the only measuring stick then no one would by an Aston.

My question about money was simply based on the fact that the average new aston costs about three times as much as the M3. Yet, the M3 is the better performer, especially when compared to the Vantage V8. But, if you walked into a showroom and were offered either the M3 or the Aston at equal prices, which would really choose? Would you pick the M3 simply because it is the better performer or would you pick the Aston for other subjective reasons?

My overall point, the GTR is no doubt the better performer but does it have any soul? Is the only remarkable thing about it, its ability to move fast? Do you feel disconnected when driving it?

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      05-29-2008, 10:10 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by JEllis View Post
My post was in response to a point Ruff made about how in reality we (car geeks) mostly just care about numbers. I bring up the Aston Martin because it is in no way an astonishing performer nor is its luxury beyond reproach. People pay 150-250K for an Aston Martin for more than just what its capable of on the track. If performance was the only measuring stick then no one would by an Aston.

My question about money was simply based on the fact that the average new aston costs about three times as much as the M3. Yet, the M3 is the better performer, especially when compared to the Vantage V8. But, if you walked into a showroom and were offered either the M3 or the Aston at equal prices, which would really choose? Would you pick the M3 simply because it is the better performer or would you pick the Aston for other subjective reasons?

My overall point, the GTR is no doubt the better performer but does it have any soul? Is the only remarkable thing about it, its ability to move fast? Do you feel disconnected when driving it?

Jason

+1 Nicely said.
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      05-29-2008, 10:21 AM   #70
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I'd like to point out that not everyone or even most people buy the M3 because it's ring time or 1/4 mile time, There are lots of cars faster than the M3.

But people do buy the M3 for it's rear seat. It's got real rear seats. I'm 6-3 and was able to fit (tight but none the less fit) and my two small children can ride in back unlike a Z06 or 911 turbo which has a rear seat in name only.

The GTR's rear seat head room was 7" less than the M3. I don't know about you but 7" headroom is everything. I mean that would come about my shoulder so there is no head room about it.

I say many many people want an all around car that can also be a family car. They can give a hang about the ring time.

the M3 is fairly quick for real world driving as well as being fairly good as a DD and can be a family car in a pintch which you can not say about the Z06 or 911 turbo or GTR.
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      05-29-2008, 02:24 PM   #71
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Excellent point rai. The M3 coupe is probably the best and most practical everyday sports car you can get regardless of what price range. Of course there are some other cars out there that will be faster and quicker like the GTR, Z06, just to name a few, but they're not as practical or versatile. But this comparison is just idiotic and the outcome is so stupid. Base on this comparison, the M3 will probably beat the Z06, Gallardo, and even the F430 considering that these cars have similar performance numbers with the GTR and 997tt but they don't have rear seats. In other words, they're toast against the M3 if C&D compares them.
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      05-29-2008, 02:26 PM   #72
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      05-29-2008, 04:33 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbb357 View Post
Excellent point rai. The M3 coupe is probably the best and most practical everyday sports car you can get regardless of what price range. Of course there are some other cars out there that will be faster and quicker like the GTR, Z06, just to name a few, but they're not as practical or versatile. But this comparison is just idiotic and the outcome is so stupid. Base on this comparison, the M3 will probably beat the Z06, Gallardo, and even the F430 considering that these cars have similar performance numbers with the GTR and 997tt but they don't have rear seats. In other words, they're toast against the M3 if C&D compares them.
Guys if you are going to use the excuse for why the M3 should win because it's the most practical everyday sports car then it's totally blown out of the water by the RS4, it's got 4 doors, 5 seats, is damn near as quick in acceleration and cornering in the dry and miles quicker in the wet, has the best interior, some may say the more aggressive exterior, etc, etc, etc.

Now in no way would I be silly enough to class the RS4 the winner in this contest if it had been included because sports cars and not really about which is the most practical, I know I wouldn't buy one based on that unless it was equally as good at everything else and the M3 is not compared to either the GTR or the 997tt, CLEARLY NOT.

Get a reality check guys, the M3 is a fantastic car but it not in this class, not by a long chalk.
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      05-29-2008, 04:36 PM   #74
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Guys if you are going to use the excuse for why the M3 should win because it's the most practical everyday sports car then it's totally blown out of the water by the RS4, it's got 4 doors, 5 seats, is damn near as quick in acceleration and cornering in the dry and miles quicker in the wet, has the best interior, some may say the more aggressive exterior, etc, etc, etc.
...Naw, we've got our 4 door ///M to combat that that.
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      05-29-2008, 06:08 PM   #75
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it was the most FUN to drive...

these are street cars, absolute speed beyond a certain point is pointless...
I'd say 150 in <25 sec is a pretty good point

it feels the best, it will bring the biggest grin, whether hauling on a track, or cruising down a back road...

these cars would never 'race' each other...awd & turbos vs rwd and na? come on...

does anybody here think BMW couldn't build a faster car if they wanted to?
they don't want to...
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      05-29-2008, 06:45 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by footie View Post
Guys if you are going to use the excuse for why the M3 should win because it's the most practical everyday sports car then it's totally blown out of the water by the RS4, it's got 4 doors, 5 seats, is damn near as quick in acceleration and cornering in the dry and miles quicker in the wet, has the best interior, some may say the more aggressive exterior, etc, etc, etc.

Now in no way would I be silly enough to class the RS4 the winner in this contest if it had been included because sports cars and not really about which is the most practical, I know I wouldn't buy one based on that unless it was equally as good at everything else and the M3 is not compared to either the GTR or the 997tt, CLEARLY NOT.

Get a reality check guys, the M3 is a fantastic car but it not in this class, not by a long chalk.
You do realize that we're on the same page, right. BTW, my comment was meant to be sarcastic and i did say this comparison is stupid. By no means that the M3 is in the same class with any of the cars i mentioned including the GTR and 997tt.

.
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Originally Posted by gbb357
Base on this comparison, the M3 will probably beat the Z06, Gallardo, and even the F430 considering that these cars have similar performance numbers with the GTR and 997tt but they don't have rear seats. In other words, they're toast against the M3 if C&D compares them.

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      05-29-2008, 06:58 PM   #77
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+1,000,000. These cars should be tested and judged for what they really are, high performance cars. Not for the size of the back seats, trunk, and rebates. Rebates!
By that standard my Elise is the better car. However, I let it sit at home most days and drive the BMW instead. The Elise is ~8 seconds a lap faster at laguna seca. Surely its a better car.

The M3 is a comfortable car with enough performance to keep me happy on my comutes to and from work. It serves my purpose when I need to haul people around other than myself. It has a trunk for when I need to go shopping (or haul the other cars tires to the installer).

There is a reason many here have multiple cars. I simply don't enjoy driving the elise on the street the same way I do the BMW. Its too hard core for every day use. So I have it for weekend fun and the BMW for commuter use.

I almost bought an M6 instead of the M3. Then I drove one and didn't like the way it felt. Yes its faster but far less enjoyable despite comfort. It lacks the feel of the M3. To me the new M3 is the right blend of performance, feel, and comfort for a car I need to use most days.

I have also looked at the V8 vantage a couple times. I was never able to justify buying one based on the cost compared to what I would get.

There is no "best" car, only best car for a purpose. Anyone who thinks otherwise is trying to push their opinion on everyone else.
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      05-29-2008, 08:07 PM   #78
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By that standard my Elise is the better car. However, I let it sit at home most days and drive the BMW instead. The Elise is ~8 seconds a lap faster at laguna seca. Surely its a better car.

The M3 is a comfortable car with enough performance to keep me happy on my comutes to and from work. It serves my purpose when I need to haul people around other than myself. It has a trunk for when I need to go shopping (or haul the other cars tires to the installer).

There is a reason many here have multiple cars. I simply don't enjoy driving the elise on the street the same way I do the BMW. Its too hard core for every day use. So I have it for weekend fun and the BMW for commuter use.

I almost bought an M6 instead of the M3. Then I drove one and didn't like the way it felt. Yes its faster but far less enjoyable despite comfort. It lacks the feel of the M3. To me the new M3 is the right blend of performance, feel, and comfort for a car I need to use most days.

I have also looked at the V8 vantage a couple times. I was never able to justify buying one based on the cost compared to what I would get.

There is no "best" car, only best car for a purpose. Anyone who thinks otherwise is trying to push their opinion on everyone else.

Great perspective!
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      05-29-2008, 08:37 PM   #79
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By that standard my Elise is the better car. However, I let it sit at home most days and drive the BMW instead. The Elise is ~8 seconds a lap faster at laguna seca. Surely its a better car.

The M3 is a comfortable car with enough performance to keep me happy on my comutes to and from work. It serves my purpose when I need to haul people around other than myself. It has a trunk for when I need to go shopping (or haul the other cars tires to the installer).

There is a reason many here have multiple cars. I simply don't enjoy driving the elise on the street the same way I do the BMW. Its too hard core for every day use. So I have it for weekend fun and the BMW for commuter use.

I almost bought an M6 instead of the M3. Then I drove one and didn't like the way it felt. Yes its faster but far less enjoyable despite comfort. It lacks the feel of the M3. To me the new M3 is the right blend of performance, feel, and comfort for a car I need to use most days.

I have also looked at the V8 vantage a couple times. I was never able to justify buying one based on the cost compared to what I would get.

There is no "best" car, only best car for a purpose. Anyone who thinks otherwise is trying to push their opinion on everyone else.
I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gbb357
The M3 coupe is probably the best and most practical everyday sports car you can get regardless of what price range. Of course there are some other cars out there that will be faster and quicker like the GTR, Z06, just to name a few, but they're not as practical or versatile.
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      05-29-2008, 08:43 PM   #80
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What a ridiculous article....

I don't know why C&D boys were comparing M3 against GTR and Turbo in the first place.

M3 coupe should be compared against cars like S5, C63, and IS-F.

GTR and Turbo are at a supercar level, and I doubt that Nissan and Porsche folks even consider M3 as a competition. M3 is clearly a class below.

With this flawed logic, what's next? C&D compares Mazdaspeed3, IS350, and M3?
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      05-29-2008, 11:00 PM   #81
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What a ridiculous article....

I don't know why C&D boys were comparing M3 against GTR and Turbo in the first place.

M3 coupe should be compared against cars like S5, C63, and IS-F.

GTR and Turbo are at a supercar level, and I doubt that Nissan and Porsche folks even consider M3 as a competition. M3 is clearly a class below.

With this flawed logic, what's next? C&D compares Mazdaspeed3, IS350, and M3?
This is the crux of this odd situation and in many ways is an improper comparison. Z06, GT-R and 997TT yes, M3 in the mix, no. M3 vs. IS-F vs C63 AMG vs. RS4, YES. The problem becomes the weighting of criteria, should more emphasis be placed on raw performance, practicality, fun factor, room, etc.
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      05-30-2008, 06:34 AM   #82
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It sucks for all the 335i guys (some of whom think they drive the best car on the planet) to be reminded of the prowess of the M3 and to play such a distant second. I wonder how a modded 335i would have done in the same comparo . That being said the overall rankings results are nearly unbelievable.
Perfectly said.......when I first bought my e92 335i I loved it, but loved it knowing I put too many miles on a car to buy a used e46 M3 and couldn't afford two cars. I also knew the e92 M3 would probably be the way to go as I knew my life was changing. It has changed, both how many miles and financially, and I'm glad I waited.

But what amazed me is how many 335i owners just had no idea that there car, albeit fast as hell, was no M, it was still a regular 3. Don't get me wrong, love my car and some parts I will miss, but when my beast arrives, I won't have any problems handing the keys over the the 335. I take pride in my ability to objective about the things I use and own and I love my 335i, but damn some owners need to get a grip. //M is not something you can understand by reading, its something you just can't understand till you drive it. Never loved the //Ms until I got in one 10 years ago, and ever since there ain't an //M I have been in that I don't love and is the reason I came to love ALL BMW's.

Sorry for the longwinded post
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      05-30-2008, 03:15 PM   #83
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The problem becomes the weighting of criteria, should more emphasis be placed on raw performance, practicality, fun factor, room, etc.
It's all relative. What's important to you and by how much? You can change the maximum scores for each category and come up with your own answer. Maybe people should start doing this and see what works for each?
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      05-30-2008, 10:26 PM   #84
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does anybody here think BMW couldn't build a faster car if they wanted to?
they don't want to...
Really, so this is how you rationalize BMW not having faster cars? I guess BMW is not interested in having faster cars. Kia engineers can now use this same rationale.
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      05-31-2008, 04:49 PM   #85
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lol what a joke.... "M3 back seats are more comfortable then the turbos rear seats"

do you really think people give a shit about rear seats now and days? especially on a 997, they are useless unless you have a small child.

funniest and lamest article ever.

im waiting for the smart car, veyron, and enzo comparison
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      05-31-2008, 05:21 PM   #86
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lol what a joke.... "M3 back seats are more comfortable then the turbos rear seats"

do you really think people give a shit about rear seats now and days? especially on a 997, they are useless unless you have a small child.

funniest and lamest article ever.

im waiting for the smart car, veyron, and enzo comparison
Judging varied criteria too hard for you?
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      05-31-2008, 06:52 PM   #87
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Really, so this is how you rationalize BMW not having faster cars? I guess BMW is not interested in having faster cars. Kia engineers can now use this same rationale.

you sound angry...did C&D burst you bubble? the gtr still ran 7:29
2700/650/semi-slicks/dry/pro race driver
3900/480/run flats/damp/????

sure it did


this is a FACT, not speculation...or rationalization...BMW builds them as fast as they deem necessary to sell...
Kia, they build inexpensive, economical cars...what's your point?
do you really think kia has any intention of competing with BMW, Audi, Porsche, MB? speedwise?

BMW is more interested in having a balanced car they can sell...
and that's exactly what this article concluded...

btw: they said the ride in the gtr was horrid, even in comfort with 29 psi all around...that would be tiring in about 2 weeks...

these are STREET cars...99% driven in traffic at low speeds...
not racing stop light to stop light...

a quartz seiko is more accurate than a Rolex, which is a 'better' watch?
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      05-31-2008, 09:02 PM   #88
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I own a 335i. It has an excellent chassis. Take that chassis and make it even better and give it better suspension, wider track, bigger and better wheels and tires and you get the M3. The refinement in the 335i is build into the 3-series, including the M3. It is what made C&D choose the M3 over the GTR. The car can be a normal DD, or fun in the hills, or absolutely stellar on a track. It is not as capable as the GTR on the track, but it may be more satisfying to drive because of the connection it makes with the driver. Then it is MUCH better as an all around car, and more refined to boot.
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