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      05-28-2008, 04:48 AM   #45
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The 911 turbo is the winner in my books.

I don't care what electronic gizmos they put in the GT-R, 3900 lb car for the track, YEAH RIGHT!
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      05-28-2008, 04:51 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Some more realistic GT-R performance numbers compared to some we have seen in the past. This car is definitely in the range of the Nissan quoted power and weight figures. So much for some of the "magic" numbers we have seen much of in the past and that that GT-R fanboys love to quote.
Exactly, like the 7:38 ring time that was done on cut slick tires.

Sport Auto tested a stock trim GT-R and could only manage 7:50 on the ring. Still a very impressive time though.
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      05-28-2008, 04:53 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJetE90 View Post
Exactly, like the 7:38 ring time that was done on cut slick tires.

Sport Auto tested a stock trim GT-R and could only manage 7:50 on the ring. Still a very impressive time though.
The 7:38 GT-R time has been beaten..... they now claim 7:29 with a bone stock car on OEM tyres.

http://www.fastestlaps.com/car4717b80e35715.html
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      05-28-2008, 04:57 AM   #48
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I will NOT buy the GT-R it looks so cheap, especially the interior

it maybe fast, but is nothing like a Porsche...
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      05-28-2008, 08:14 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Some more realistic GT-R performance numbers compared to some we have seen in the past. This car is definitely in the range of the Nissan quoted power and weight figures. So much for some of the "magic" numbers we have seen much of in the past and that that GT-R fanboys love to quote.
The review from Edmunds highlights that though the GTR is still quickest it not that much quicker than cars with a heck of a lot less power, namely the R8.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...opanel..1.*#19

P.S.
Sorry if this is a re-post.
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      05-28-2008, 11:25 AM   #50
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clearly the points total is greatly effected by the rear seats of the M3. The rear seats are counted twice, rear seat comfort and room. Obviously the 911 has virtually nothing there so they get the minimum both times as well as the minimum for trunk space so it's starting out 12 points down to the M3 (or whatever).
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      05-28-2008, 01:47 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wads View Post
Anyone know which track they tested on? I scanned the article but didn't notice anything saying where they tested....

It was at Reno-Fernley
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...on/theory.html

They should have included an Evo if the article was about all-around usability and price....

Honestly, if you are not an M3 owner, or M3 fan , the hyperbole in this article's conclusion comes off as a joke. The criteria for judging and ranking seems random.
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      05-28-2008, 06:22 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ERM-M3 View Post
Those GTR and Porsche guys are gonna have a fit....cant wait lol

No one really takes C&D reviews that include a BMW too serious. You can't miss the BMW bias when reading the magazine....that's why I have a 5 year subscription!
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      05-28-2008, 07:04 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
It sucks for all the 335i guys (some of whom think they drive the best car on the planet) to be reminded of the prowess of the M3 and to play such a distant second. I wonder how a modded 335i would have done in the same comparo . That being said the overall rankings results are nearly unbelievable.
It's simple. Just take a look at my sig.
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      05-28-2008, 08:18 PM   #54
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m3's acceleration numbers are at 4200ft elevation...'


that destroys the m3's acceleration compared to the Fi car which are barely hurt by elevation.
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      05-28-2008, 09:40 PM   #55
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As a M3 fanboy I am pleased to see the M3 come out on top. As a rational car enthusiast this article makes me embarrassed for BMW and BMW enthusiasts alike. Looks like the game was fixed before it ever started.

Anyone who jumps on this bandwagon needs to take an honest look at themselves. How many times do we hear on this forum that it is performance numbers and lap times that really matter and the numbers do not lie? (Well Look at the numbers of the three contestants and report back). Then blast someone who minimizes the importance of all these crazy numbers and focuses instead on actual driving attained through such cognitive/physical sensations such as steering feel, seat of the pants feel, fits like a glove feel, the feel of acceleration, cornering feel, braking feel and of course the all important panache factor. And all accomplished without thinking about or recording a single solitary number. Now how archaic is that?
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      05-28-2008, 10:27 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruff View Post
As a M3 fanboy I am pleased to see the M3 come out on top. As a rational car enthusiast this article makes me embarrassed for BMW and BMW enthusiasts alike. Looks like the game was fixed before it ever started.

Anyone who jumps on this bandwagon needs to take an honest look at themselves. How many times do we hear on this forum that it is performance numbers and lap times that really matter and the numbers do not lie? (Well Look at the numbers of the three contestants and report back). Then blast someone who minimizes the importance of all these crazy numbers and focuses instead on actual driving attained through such cognitive/physical sensations such as steering feel, seat of the pants feel, fits like a glove feel, the feel of acceleration, cornering feel, braking feel and of course the all important panache factor. And all accomplished without thinking about or recording a single solitary number. Now how archaic is that?

I am picking up what your throwing down but then how does one justify buying an Aston Martin DBS for $250K over a 997TT or even an M3. Both Germans have superior or matching performance. If we start going down this road then look at all the Maserati GT's and Jags being sold despite having inferior performance to cars that cost half as much..... You really cant just take performance numbers over all else either.

I have a big ego, like any other car nut, and numbers mean a lot to me but I am willing to admit that differences measured in fractions of seconds do not translate well to the street. Granted, I am not dumb enough to believe that I can take a GTR from a stop light. Does this downplay the M3? Does it downplay the Aston DBS that an M3 can give it a run for its money at 1/4 the price? Money being a non-issue, would you really take the M3 over the Aston? Think about it....

Jason
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      05-29-2008, 12:43 AM   #57
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      05-29-2008, 01:06 AM   #58
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Wow!

It beat the GTR by 14 points and seven out of the 14 points where due to this part of the test.

* rear seat comfort
* rear seat space
* trunk space
* rebates


BTW, since when do you determine how good a car is by if rebates are offered? Regardless how bias this test is, considering how much the GTR is selling for and how expensive the 997tt is, i'd rather have the M3.
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      05-29-2008, 01:13 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruff View Post
As a M3 fanboy I am pleased to see the M3 come out on top. As a rational car enthusiast this article makes me embarrassed for BMW and BMW enthusiasts alike. Looks like the game was fixed before it ever started.

Anyone who jumps on this bandwagon needs to take an honest look at themselves. How many times do we hear on this forum that it is performance numbers and lap times that really matter and the numbers do not lie? (Well Look at the numbers of the three contestants and report back). Then blast someone who minimizes the importance of all these crazy numbers and focuses instead on actual driving attained through such cognitive/physical sensations such as steering feel, seat of the pants feel, fits like a glove feel, the feel of acceleration, cornering feel, braking feel and of course the all important panache factor. And all accomplished without thinking about or recording a single solitary number. Now how archaic is that?
+1,000,000. These cars should be tested and judged for what they really are, high performance cars. Not for the size of the back seats, trunk, and rebates. Rebates!
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      05-29-2008, 01:53 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seriousm3 View Post
m3's acceleration numbers are at 4200ft elevation...'


that destroys the m3's acceleration compared to the Fi car which are barely hurt by elevation.
Was all acceleration testing done at this altitude or just the track work? Either way all the more impressive for the M3s numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gbb357 View Post
+1,000,000. These cars should be tested and judged for what they really are, high performance cars. Not for the size of the back seats, trunk, and rebates. Rebates!
I will second that point. Although the counterpoint is the following question. Are these categories used universally in all C&D sports car comparisons? If so this partially mitigates this concern.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelTorque View Post
It's simple. Just take a look at my sig.
Hate to say it but your attitude on this point exemplifies the terribly narrow point of view of "performance" by most who mod their 335i. My point was how well would the modded 335i do across ALL CATEGORIES.
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      05-29-2008, 02:40 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEllis View Post
I am picking up what your throwing down but then how does one justify buying an Aston Martin DBS for $250K over a 997TT or even an M3. Both Germans have superior or matching performance. If we start going down this road then look at all the Maserati GT's and Jags being sold despite having inferior performance to cars that cost half as much..... You really cant just take performance numbers over all else either.

I have a big ego, like any other car nut, and numbers mean a lot to me but I am willing to admit that differences measured in fractions of seconds do not translate well to the street. Granted, I am not dumb enough to believe that I can take a GTR from a stop light. Does this downplay the M3? Does it downplay the Aston DBS that an M3 can give it a run for its money at 1/4 the price? Money being a non-issue, would you really take the M3 over the Aston? Think about it....

Jason

why would you bring the aston martin into this? I'm sure the m3 can do more than give the rolls royce phantom a run for its money. And i don't get what you mean when you say " Money being a non-issue ", Of course money is an issue.

Everyone ( including the magazine ) has ruled out the porsche because of the price so the main comparison is between the gtr and the bmw. Both of these cars were made to be killer quick cars that you can live with everyday. And its clear the bmw lost. I don't know why people are arguing about the m3 being better because of its usability, if you wanted usability get a 328 , 335. The reason anyone would consider the ///m version is because they want more power and better performance. Its pretty logical, the m division isn't there to make nice friendly couch-mobiles that can carry your family and stow a tent. The purpose of m is to take those couch-mobiles and turn them into performance monsters. So arguing that the m3 is better, not because of what the m division has put into it, but rather arguing that its the natural 3 series characteristics that make it better seems kind of insulting to bmw.

Both cars were built for speed.
Both cars were built to be user friendly everyday cars.
Both have rear seats, trunk space, sat nav, leather, a/c, etc...

but one is by far faster.

Unless you're going to argue higher quality leather on the inside and a better looking console are what you should judge a car off of, people on here make it seem as if the gtr has an interior similar to fred flinstones car.

But however if you are a brand loyalist i completely understand. The m badge does have a lot of history and passion behind it and it truly is an honor to have it bestowed on a car. I also understand if your someone 40+, datsun vs. bmw M isn't a really hard decision to make. And if your a TRUE old fashioned motor enthusiast who would rather die than use an automati tip-shiftomatic doo hickey, then i understand as well, for the money the m3 is probably one of the best driving experiences someone can purchase, fueled by bmw's long racing heritage.



Both are great cars, ones a lot faster, the other has nicer leather, an m badge, and is offered in a good old 6 speed manual.
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      05-29-2008, 02:45 AM   #62
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yes i own a nissan, but im far from a fan boy. If anything im a bmw fan boy, that'd explain why i have an account on here, lol.
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      05-29-2008, 03:33 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopy View Post
Both cars were built to be user friendly everyday cars.
The GT-R was quite clearly not built as an everyday car. It was built to beat supercars. Supercars are not everyday cars.

I don't know why everyone gets so bent out of shape over reviews that disagree with pre-ordained conclusions. C&D has a set of subjective ratings that they assign points to and add them up for a pseudo-objective conclusion. Whining about "objectivity" from a magazine review is pretty pointless; reviewers don't live in single-serving vacuum packs, ready to be brought into the world fresh when new cars are introduced. There is no such thing as an unbiased car review. Oh noes! People that do this for a living disagree with my opinion of the car that I have never driven! Is the sky falling? Do they have a sinister, hidden agenda to sell magazines? Right, because more people will buy Car and Driver when it craps on the GT-R.... /sarcasm.


The good thing about the C&D review system is that each little bit of subjectivity is spelled out so you can agree or disagree with the weighting and/or the ratings. For example, I think the GT-R's interior is ugly, yet C&D prefers it to the M3. Someone else might weight the acceleration and performance numbers doubly as important giver their priorities and thus reach a different pseudo-objective total score. It sure beats reading reviews where the text and the conclusions do not match up.
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      05-29-2008, 03:45 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Hate to say it but your attitude on this point exemplifies the terribly narrow point of view of "performance" by most who mod their 335i. My point was how well would the modded 335i do across ALL CATEGORIES.
The eternal modded 335 fanboy (not necessarily anyone here) paradox:

The modded 335 fanboy cherishes that his car is either competitive (in warranty with Dinan) or perhaps a touch faster (out of warranty) in a straight line than an M3.

The modded 335 fanboy feels M3 drivers are badge posers that wasted money on an overpriced car.

Yet, the mere existence of cars such as the Evo, modded Civics and the like for far less suggest that 335 fanboys are badge posers (for BMW's in general) that wasted money on an overpriced car (as equivalent or better performance is available for cheaper).
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      05-29-2008, 04:32 AM   #65
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So does ANYONE know which track they were tested on? Pretty please.......

EDIT.... found it Reno Fernley
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      05-29-2008, 05:37 AM   #66
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I laughed out loud when I saw that the M3 won this comparison, because I knew it was going to set off WW3. But it's cool that the nissan didn't win; its fanbois needed to see that its not a godsend and not the default winner everytime.

Anyway, this comparo really isn't surprising. C&D almost always picks the most balanced and all-around vehicle, rather than the fastest or best handling. In a sports sedan comparo, the 550 took second place behind the m45, even though it kicked its ass in everything. In a sports coupe comparo, the aging, slowest-in-test RX8 beat out several newer models, simply because it was the most fun to drive. And so on.

I think their summation of the M makes perfect sense, and it's easy to see why it was picked over the other two. The nissan is too clinical and doesn't seem much fun to drive, and the 9 doesn't exactly sound like a fun dancing partner either. Considering the M sounds best, puts down "supercar" numbers, will kick its tail out, has room friends and gear, and has the most wallet-friendly sticker, is it really THAT much of a stretch to see why it won?
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