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      05-25-2008, 04:36 PM   #45
Solonng
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haha, arent you so proud of yourself?
go ferdinand!
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      05-25-2008, 05:05 PM   #46
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I appreciate your thoughtful discussion. Are you related to Kevin James?

While I might disagree with a lot of posters here, I usually find their posts interesting and can usually gain some insight of a different view. With your posts, I only can gather that you are arrogant and ignorant which is a very bad combination (as proved by our current president).

I know your response will be:
a) your a communist
b) your gay
c) liberal - I hate you
d) laffer curve (shh...I'm taking an econ class)
e) blah!
f) your a dumbass
g) Obama sounds like Osama
h) your a communist
i) your a communist
j) your a communist
k) all the above

Solonng, do us all a favor and just put the appropriate letter down when you post - it will make it easier for all of us. Thank you for your cooperation.
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      05-25-2008, 05:40 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Solonng View Post
you give respect to a guy that want to sell out this country? wow, how patriotic!
Are you a communist?
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      05-25-2008, 06:24 PM   #48
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Why do I even bother at this point...
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      05-25-2008, 06:49 PM   #49
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I've been thinking about this issue quite a bit, here's some simplistic thoughts. Perhaps they're obvious, but anyway...

I can oversimplify things by categorizing the success of a person by two things. One, the actual work that he or she does. Two, the kind of control he or she exerts over people.

The second point, as it stands, has a negative connotation, it's not always the case. For instance, control can be gained by a leader with great charisma, causing the people to willingly and gladly follow him or her. Of course, if the media is controlled, then the ruling party / entity / group will appear to do less wrong.

A favorite movie of mine is "The Illusionist", where the main character used magic tricks that mesmerized the public and indirectly caused the downfall of royalty. I think it's a good example of how the manipulation of public perception can determine the success of the governing body.

Anyway, it would appear that Hillary does not appear to be as good as Obama in influencing the public's perception. Because of this reason, even if Hillary has more experience and in action is better than Obama, at the end of the day she will never be deemed better in history books.

Some of the opinions above are quite controversial, and not very well formed. I'm interested to know what people think
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      05-25-2008, 07:59 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by TofuTurkey View Post
I've been thinking about this issue quite a bit, here's some simplistic thoughts. Perhaps they're obvious, but anyway...

I can oversimplify things by categorizing the success of a person by two things. One, the actual work that he or she does. Two, the kind of control he or she exerts over people.

The second point, as it stands, has a negative connotation, it's not always the case. For instance, control can be gained by a leader with great charisma, causing the people to willingly and gladly follow him or her. Of course, if the media is controlled, then the ruling party / entity / group will appear to do less wrong.

A favorite movie of mine is "The Illusionist", where the main character used magic tricks that mesmerized the public and indirectly caused the downfall of royalty. I think it's a good example of how the manipulation of public perception can determine the success of the governing body.

Anyway, it would appear that Hillary does not appear to be as good as Obama in influencing the public's perception. Because of this reason, even if Hillary has more experience and in action is better than Obama, at the end of the day she will never be deemed better in history books.

Some of the opinions above are quite controversial, and not very well formed. I'm interested to know what people think
I'm not sure what you are saying, but it sounds like you think Hillary is better in action because she has more experience? You then reference the movie the "Illusionist" as an example of how Obama is mesmerizing and manipulating the public and the media? you also mention that a leader can also be charismatic and have people willingly follow them...not sure if you think this applies to Obama or not. If I got any of the above wrong let me know...

Re: experience...I live in MN and am a football fan so I will give you a football analogy here: The Vikings were fortunate enough to have Adrian Peterson fall into their laps at last years draft...this presented the Vikings with an interesting dilemma as they already had a very good, all-pro running back in Chester Taylor who had a lot more experience. We had two very good candidates (sound familiar?). One was the experienced deserving starter...the other was a rookie running back who everyone knew was going to be very good and might be one of those once in a lifetime running backs. The pre-season and early part of the regular season showed fans that Chester Taylor is still a great running back, but it also showed that Adrian Peterson is that once in a lifetime football player. The Vikings need to put the best team out there...and eventually that person was Adrian Peterson...because even with his inexperience, he still made the Vikings better when he was on the field. Sorry if you are not a sports fan and my analogy is lost on you, but I see Hillary as the experienced, good candidate, and Obama is the Once in a lifetime candidate/leader. He makes the Dems better when he is the candidate. The fact that Rush had "Operation Chaos" to vote for Hillary should tell you something...if he thought Obama was the weaker candidate, why vote for Hillary...because he knows Obama will be the stronger candidate( yes I know he wanted to create chaos, but ultimately he wanted Hillary to be the candidate). I also think people follow him because he inspires them - not fool and hoodwink them.

When history judges this campaign - They will see an overwhelming favorite lose the election to an underdog w/ a funny name. It is not because Obama mesmerized them - she lost it..plain and simple. She started out with more black support than Obama...many in the black community doubted whether he shared a similar experience or was "black enough". Rolling out Geraldine and Bill to be the "hatchet men" did gain Hillary some of the white vote, but cost her those black votes who had supported her in the beginning because ironically...it was the behavior of the Clinton campaign that proved that, yes, (no matter if he was raised by a white mother and lived over seas and is biracial) he most certainly was black enough for the Clinton Campaign to inject race into the campaign and try to treat him and compare him to every other black candidate who has run before. I still say Obama did not get the black vote - Hillary lost it in a calculated move to play the race card - she just didn't expect it to hurt her with her one time black supporters who were sickened to see how the Clintons sold out the black community in the name of politics after all the goodwill that was offered them during Bill Clintons Presidency.

BTW, the Royalty deserved to be overthrown in the movie...and I'm glad the illusionist got his true love. I don't necessarily think about that movie as an example of manipulation...its more a love story and about perseverance and overcoming long odds..funny how we can see the same movie so differently.
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      05-26-2008, 04:18 PM   #51
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Obama / Clinton '08
* dream ticket *
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      05-26-2008, 11:11 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fedinand View Post
I appreciate your thoughtful discussion. Are you related to Kevin James?

While I might disagree with a lot of posters here, I usually find their posts interesting and can usually gain some insight of a different view. With your posts, I only can gather that you are arrogant and ignorant which is a very bad combination (as proved by our current president).

I know your response will be:
a) your a communist
b) your gay
c) liberal - I hate you
d) laffer curve (shh...I'm taking an econ class)
e) blah!
f) your a dumbass
g) Obama sounds like Osama
h) your a communist
i) your a communist
j) your a communist
k) all the above

Solonng, do us all a favor and just put the appropriate letter down when you post - it will make it easier for all of us. Thank you for your cooperation.
you forgot one, are you a socialist?
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      05-26-2008, 11:12 PM   #53
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Obama / Clinton '08
* dream ticket *
so can we start betting on which intern obama or clinton will bang once in office?
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      05-26-2008, 11:23 PM   #54
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[quote=fedinand;2726461]I appreciate your thoughtful discussion. Are you related to Kevin James?

While I might disagree with a lot of posters here, I usually find their posts interesting and can usually gain some insight of a different view. With your posts, I only can gather that you are arrogant and ignorant which is a very bad combination (as proved by our current president).

you already made up your mind so chances are you won't listen to other views exept the obama way. to answer your comment, no i am either arrogant nor ignorant. i just can't stand people that have no desire to thank the system that gives alot to hard working people instead trying to destroy it to redistribute welfare to all. there will always be rich and poor, live with it. if you don't like it, work harder until you move up the ladder instead of stealing from others.
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      05-26-2008, 11:33 PM   #55
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Maybe Hilliary watches 24.
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      05-27-2008, 07:27 AM   #56
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[quote=Solonng;2730972]
Quote:
Originally Posted by fedinand View Post
I appreciate your thoughtful discussion. Are you related to Kevin James?

While I might disagree with a lot of posters here, I usually find their posts interesting and can usually gain some insight of a different view. With your posts, I only can gather that you are arrogant and ignorant which is a very bad combination (as proved by our current president).

you already made up your mind so chances are you won't listen to other views exept the obama way. to answer your comment, no i am either arrogant nor ignorant. i just can't stand people that have no desire to thank the system that gives alot to hard working people instead trying to destroy it to redistribute welfare to all. there will always be rich and poor, live with it. if you don't like it, work harder until you move up the ladder instead of stealing from others.
I don't think you understand what your posts say about you and what you think about others...you were better with your usual replies.
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      05-27-2008, 09:55 AM   #57
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I never thought I would be defending Hillary Clinton but this notion that her comment was meant to imply that she is staying in the race in case Obama is assassinated is just crazy.

This is simply further evidence of the Obama as messiah/martyr mindset that many of his followers have developed.

Clinton was clearly talking about how late the nomination contest has run in the past.

Can there be any doubt remaining that the mainstream media is in the tank for Obama?
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      05-27-2008, 10:12 AM   #58
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Quote:
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Obama / Clinton '08
* dream ticket *
That's a ticket that would cause this semi-liberal independant to vote Republican for sure.
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      05-27-2008, 02:00 PM   #59
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That's a ticket that would cause this semi-liberal independant to vote Republican for sure.
Is it the dream ticket that the Democrats would want, or that the Republicans would want for the Democrats? I once thought it would be a hard ticket to beat. But as the primary season has dragged on, it looks very weak indeed.

I really don't care who is on the Democrat ticket. I don't care much for the Republican winner either. There's not much left but to look to the third parties. So far we have Baldwin for the Constitution Party, Barr for the Libertarians, and Nader as an Independent.

No matter what, we're screwed in 2008.

Let's have the Democrat party dream ticket. Whether it's Obama on top or Hillary on top, it doesn't matter. Except that if Obama is on top, he better watch his backside. Somebody might stab him in the back. He'll need a food taster... maybe wear a bullet proof vest even while roaming the halls of the White House. RIP Vince Foster.
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      05-27-2008, 10:28 PM   #60
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[quote=fedinand;2731870]
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I don't think you understand what your posts say about you and what you think about others...you were better with your usual replies.
i think nothing of others except respect. i don't like seeing people getting screwed over by your socialist candidate!
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