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      05-21-2008, 11:53 AM   #1
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Lightbulb 7-Speed Dual-Clutch who's is best?

Now before anyone slams me for my lack of provided information lets just consider past experience. With BMW, Ferrari, Mercedes now producing 7 speed dual clutch gear boxes and Audi-Lamborghini not far behind I think a comparo is necessary, how ever most of these gear boxes are in their infancy still so actual literature and specs on them is hard to come by. But based on the past BMW SMG I, II, III Ferrari F1 Superfast I, II Mercedes 7 speed auto and Audi-VW DSG... which one of the newest gear boxes will take the crown?
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      05-21-2008, 11:57 AM   #2
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My vote is the latest Ferarri as used in the F430... its UNREAL!
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      05-21-2008, 11:57 AM   #3
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merc is working on their DCT as well... who knows...
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      05-21-2008, 12:03 PM   #4
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Sorry, but


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      05-21-2008, 12:17 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///Mantis View Post
merc is working on their DCT as well... who knows...
You sure about that? Their new box is a wet clutch automated manual, isn't it?

2/8/08: "Debuting on the SL 63 is AMG’s newly developed SPEEDSHIFT MCT 7-speed sports transmission, which ditches the conventional torque converters and replaces it with a wet compact start-up clutch. This allows for a direct connection to the powertrain, providing for an engaging driving experience. The Multi-Clutch Technology only employs the clutch elements to perform gearshifts and offers four drive modes, double-declutching and Race Start function. '
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      05-21-2008, 12:20 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon View Post
You sure about that? Their new box is a wet clutch automated manual, isn't it?

2/8/08: "Debuting on the SL 63 is AMG’s newly developed SPEEDSHIFT MCT 7-speed sports transmission, which ditches the conventional torque converters and replaces it with a wet compact start-up clutch. This allows for a direct connection to the powertrain, providing for an engaging driving experience. The Multi-Clutch Technology only employs the clutch elements to perform gearshifts and offers four drive modes, double-declutching and Race Start function. '
yah, it's going to be released within the next 2 years. all their AMG's are going to have it...

merc keeps changing stuff all the time, including engines. there's so much competition and tranny seems to be headed towards dual clutches for some reason.

i just wish merc invests a bit in a manual tranny on their AMG's
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      05-21-2008, 12:31 PM   #7
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Mantis where did you hear about the merc double clutch? Got a link? All I know about is the MCT that Greg mentioned, and like he said its no dual clutch tranny.
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      05-21-2008, 12:49 PM   #8
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Ferrari 430 transmission is not a dual clutch (base nor Scuderia). It is very similar to the BMW SMG III - a fully automated manual transmission. They will be using a true DC on the new California.
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      05-21-2008, 12:50 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steveo58 View Post
My vote is the latest Ferarri as used in the F430... its UNREAL!
I wish I had the chance to experience that. Of all of those transmissions, I've only driven the SMG II and III so I can't really comment.
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      05-21-2008, 01:05 PM   #10
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As very few of us will ever get the chance to sample all of the available dual clutch systems I don't see how an accurate opinion can be given.

I know how the DSG 6sp behaves but it's unknown if the new DSG 7sp will behave the same. We now know have the BMW M-DCT behave and all is not well, with some people finding fault with the lag on take-off and other disliking the surge. The EVO system has also come up for criticism in some magazines say it's dim twitted.

The only systems I haven't heard a single bad word about is the GTR's DCT and the Bugatti's DSG but I reckon if you look hard enough there will be someone who can find fault with them too.

No system is 100% perfect.
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      05-21-2008, 01:37 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
As very few of us will ever get the chance to sample all of the available dual clutch systems I don't see how an accurate opinion can be given.

I know how the DSG 6sp behaves but it's unknown if the new DSG 7sp will behave the same. We now know have the BMW M-DCT behave and all is not well, with some people finding fault with the lag on take-off and other disliking the surge. The EVO system has also come up for criticism in some magazines say it's dim twitted.

The only systems I haven't heard a single bad word about is the GTR's DCT and the Bugatti's DSG but I reckon if you look hard enough there will be someone who can find fault with them too.

No system is 100% perfect.
Very true on the first point.

Talk about QUICK and PREMATURE on your second section. The eternal M-DCT pessimist....

I trust you have also read the absolutely glowing review of the Mitsu system that tells us even the auto mode is plently good to get around the track just as fast or faster than the manual modes?

Perhaps you have also not seen the less than stellar comments about the GT-R system? I have.
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      05-21-2008, 01:38 PM   #12
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this thing should have been a Poll
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      05-21-2008, 01:43 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
The only systems I haven't heard a single bad word about is the GTR's DCT and the Bugatti's DSG but I reckon if you look hard enough there will be someone who can find fault with them too.

No system is 100% perfect.
How many people really have experience with either one? Hopefully, we'll be seeing the GT-R soon. Now who knows someone with the means to acquire a Veyron?
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      05-21-2008, 02:11 PM   #14
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CrimsonE92 who works for mercedes keeps talking about it. PM him
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      05-21-2008, 03:01 PM   #15
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when porsche's dkg comes out, i expect them to have the best dual clutch tranny.
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      05-21-2008, 03:06 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ersin View Post
I wish I had the chance to experience that. Of all of those transmissions, I've only driven the SMG II and III so I can't really comment.
Never had any experience except the Volkswagen GTI (DSG if it counts). I ordered my M3 with DCT just on a leap of faith. It must be nice if we can just afford all those cars. So my vote for now is the GTI.
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      05-21-2008, 03:44 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hakaida442 View Post
when porsche's dkg comes out, i expect them to have the best dual clutch tranny.
well what do u all mean by "best"? best for what? being fastest means best?
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      05-21-2008, 04:50 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Very true on the first point.

Talk about QUICK and PREMATURE on your second section. The eternal M-DCT pessimist....
I am only highlighting what others in the group WITH the systems are saying. Premature..........maybe but not untrue in contain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I trust you have also read the absolutely glowing review of the Mitsu system that tells us even the auto mode is plently good to get around the track just as fast or faster than the manual modes?
Sadly I haven't read some of the US magazine reviews of the EVO X system, only the UK magazines and while many praise it Autocar didn't like it at all, with the comments I stated before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Perhaps you have also not seen the less than stellar comments about the GT-R system? I have.
Please post a link or scans of the review because I haven't read any myself, nor any bad reviews of the Bugatti system which I believe is beyond reproach.
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      05-21-2008, 04:52 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by hakaida442 View Post
when porsche's dkg comes out, i expect them to have the best dual clutch tranny.
I reckon you have hit the nail on the head, if anyone will nail it, it will be Porsche.

P.S.
With Audi's help of course.
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      05-21-2008, 05:44 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I trust you have also read the absolutely glowing review of the Mitsu system that tells us even the auto mode is plently good to get around the track just as fast or faster than the manual modes?
I find that saying any auto mode would be faster on a track than manual mode to be very hard to believe. On the track, no auto mode can anticipate what gear you want to be in, in any particular situation or for any particular corner. Plus, every manufacturers auto mode that I'm aware won't downshift or kick down until you begin to accelerate out of the apex (or just prior to the apex) which can unsettle the car at the limit of adhesion which can lead to a spin.

Any transmission that could downshift to the correct gear to downshift to for each particular corner would truly be amazing.
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      05-21-2008, 06:21 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skierman64 View Post
I find that saying any auto mode would be faster on a track than manual mode to be very hard to believe. On the track, no auto mode can anticipate what gear you want to be in, in any particular situation or for any particular corner. Plus, every manufacturers auto mode that I'm aware won't downshift or kick down until you begin to accelerate out of the apex (or just prior to the apex) which can unsettle the car at the limit of adhesion which can lead to a spin.

Any transmission that could downshift to the correct gear to downshift to for each particular corner would truly be amazing.
Well you should believe. Perhaps this has not been fully tested and documented with actual numbers but it is the case. When you ask a very experienced driver if an auto or automatic modes in a DCT are helping him or hurting him on a track he will know and it will be obvious. I love the paddles as much as the next racer wanna be but the best automatics and auto modes on DCTs are incredible. The new Mitsu Evo is one in particular where a tester claims the auto mode is as good or better at the track than all of the manual modes.

Software is the key to great track performance and M-DCT software is darn good. As I have noted in previous posts the aggressive (D5 and D6) modes in M-DCT wait a very long time (high rpm) to upshift, wait until redline if you are at WOT, very quickly downshift (when there is lack of being in the right part of the powerband and you even increase the throttle just a bit), downshift multiple gears at the touch of throttle and finally they do move aggressively to the right gear when braking and setting up for corners.

On unsettling: 1. DCTs are inherently smooth and even under the most agressive "jerk" in high S (manual modes) can be managed by the transmission control system and DSC. I'm not positive that jerk in corners is managed but I suspect it is. 2. Another example is that M-DCT can and does engage the active clutch when engine braking and cornering load could exceed total rear grip.
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      05-22-2008, 05:28 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2
I trust you have also read the absolutely glowing review of the Mitsu system that tells us even the auto mode is plently good to get around the track just as fast or faster than the manual modes?
Not 100% correct in that opinion I believe. This maybe be true for a non-professional but no pro would ever want or need a transmission to choice the gear for them and I know that it's impossible for the present technology to do as good as job on the track.

What DCT in auto mode will do is give the normal driver the ability to concentrate on the actual steering, placement on the track, braking area and ideal line through the corner, plus keep an eye on other drivers without concerning themselves with yet another exercise to think about.
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