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View Poll Results: Do loyal Bushies share his intelligence?
Same 7 26.92%
Smarter 9 34.62%
Way dumber 10 38.46%
Voters: 26. You may not vote on this poll

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      05-22-2008, 02:43 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by vachss View Post
One thing I learned long ago - there are VERY smart people on both sides of the fence, and any of us would be fools to assume those on the other side are inferior.

That said, even in the face of the breathtaking incompetence of this administration, there are many strong reasons to support the Bush side. If you are rich and want to make sure that nothing stands in the way of your continued acquisition of wealth then the blindly pro-business, anti-regulation approach of the Republicans clearly is in your own self-interest - albeit of the most narrowest and most short term variety.

There are some very smart people that buy into this Gordon Gekko-esque mindset. By and large they're far richer than I and I despise their selfishness. However, I would never underestimate their intelligence.
is all I have to say....
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      05-22-2008, 02:57 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by vachss View Post
One thing I learned long ago - there are VERY smart people on both sides of the fence, and any of us would be fools to assume those on the other side are inferior.

That said, even in the face of the breathtaking incompetence of this administration, there are many strong reasons to support the Bush side. If you are rich and want to make sure that nothing stands in the way of your continued acquisition of wealth then the blindly pro-business, anti-regulation approach of the Republicans clearly is in your own self-interest - albeit of the most narrowest and most short term variety.

There are some very smart people that buy into this Gordon Gekko-esque mindset. By and large they're far richer than I and I despise their selfishness. However, I would never underestimate their intelligence.
Where did the notion come from that business is necessarily anti-regulatory? In most cases, the larger the business, the more receptive to regulation it becomes. Government interference in the marketplace impedes competition and most businesses don't like competition.

Take a look at the largest government regulatory effort in US history, the depression era National Recovery Administration. Large businesses generally supported the NRA and the leadership of the largest corporations were tasked with writing the regulations for their industries. The companies that suffered were the smaller, family businesses. Corporate leaders have a responsibility to increase value to their shareholders. If they can do that by government regulating their industry and making it more difficult for competitors, so be it.

Also, the notion that it is somehow compassionate to take and spend someone else's money is ludicrous.
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      05-22-2008, 03:10 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post

Also, the notion that it is somehow compassionate to take and spend someone else's money is ludicrous.
Politics is all about resource allocation. Somebody is always having something "taken" from them, whether it is the wealth of the rich taken in taxation or that of the poor taken in reduced compensation, benefits and public services. You determine your political stance by whom you think it's fairest to take from and where you think it's fairest for the resources to go. In this age of CEOs and hedge fund managers raking in billions while the spending power of the average American stagnates at best I know where I stand.
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      05-22-2008, 03:18 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by vachss View Post
Politics is all about resource allocation. Somebody is always having something "taken" from them, whether it is the wealth of the rich taken in taxation or that of the poor taken in reduced compensation, benefits and public services. You determine your political stance by whom you think it's fairest to take from and where you think it's fairest for the resources to go. In this age of CEOs and hedge fund managers raking in billions while the spending power of the average American stagnates at best I know where I stand.
The US economy is a zero sum enterprise? One person can only make money by depriving someone else of it?

I would suggest a basic course in economics. You are sounding foolish.
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      05-22-2008, 03:21 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by flyinb501 View Post
The reason gas prices are so high is because of the crazy liberal extremists like e90im. They do not want us to become energy independant, and will not let us drill and refine our own oil.
There is a lot more oil off of Florida than there is in ANWAR. Just google up a map of the rigs in the Gulf of Mexico--they stop at the Florida border.

It is not the pinko liberals blocking that drilling, it is the pandering slime of both parties who will do anything--anything--to keep the Floridians happy.
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      05-22-2008, 03:32 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
The US economy is a zero sum enterprise? One person can only make money by depriving someone else of it?

I would suggest a basic course in economics. You are sounding foolish.
Not at all. I'm just saying that vastly unequal distribution of wealth has many implications for society that I find objectionable, and that a nice healthy income tax on the rich (you say confiscatory, I say progressive) can be a good thing.
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      05-22-2008, 03:34 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by vachss View Post
Not at all. I'm just saying that vastly unequal distribution of wealth has many implications for society that I find objectionable, and that a nice healthy income tax on the rich (you say confiscatory, I say progressive) can be a good thing.
BITE YOUR TONGUE! What you are advocating is redistribution of wealth, which is socialism/communism. WTF?
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      05-22-2008, 03:44 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by ///Metak View Post
BITE YOUR TONGUE! What you are advocating is redistribution of wealth, which is socialism/communism. WTF?
The patented "right-riler" - works every time.
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      05-22-2008, 03:59 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by vachss View Post
Not at all. I'm just saying that vastly unequal distribution of wealth has many implications for society that I find objectionable, and that a nice healthy income tax on the rich (you say confiscatory, I say progressive) can be a good thing.
What is good about about it?

Does it create any additional wealth?

How are politicians uniquely enlightened to determine the proper distribution?

Should the people of Ventura County decide that your having a Z4 is unequal and take it from you to be replaced with a used Yugo?
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      05-22-2008, 04:05 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by ///Metak View Post
BITE YOUR TONGUE! What you are advocating is redistribution of wealth, which is socialism/communism. WTF?
Are you claiming it is not?

I seem to recall a document named the Critique of the Gotha Program in which Karl Marx described the basis of a communist society as; "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!"

But in your defense, maybe Marx should not be looked to to define communism.
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      05-22-2008, 04:30 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Are you claiming it is not?

I seem to recall a document named the Critique of the Gotha Program in which Karl Marx described the basis of a communist society as; "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!"

But in your defense, maybe Marx should not be looked to to define communism.
I was claiming IT IS! That is why I told him to bite his tongue for even suggesting it's a good idea!
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      05-22-2008, 04:35 PM   #34
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I claiming IT IS! That is why I told him to bite his tongue for even suggesting it's a good idea!
Mea culpa, I thought you were being sarcastic.
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      05-22-2008, 05:55 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by 742 View Post
There is a lot more oil off of Florida than there is in ANWAR. Just google up a map of the rigs in the Gulf of Mexico--they stop at the Florida border.

It is not the pinko liberals blocking that drilling, it is the pandering slime of both parties who will do anything--anything--to keep the Floridians happy.
I don't like getting into political things - especially on the internet - but I'm not sure what you're talking about. I'm a Floridian and I'm all for it and most of those I know are, too. I wouldn't mind a little revenue-sharing like Alaska has, either. Maybe greed might appeal to those in question?. Hell, China's going to be drilling off our shores in Cuban waters far closer than what's been proposed in the Gulf of Mexico. I'd rather we reap the benefits than them. And I'm sure we'll take better care to avoid an environmental disaster than they will. In reality, it's the greenies that are blocking it (whether that encompasses pinko liberals, I don't know; I've never used the term). Visions of Exxon Valdezean oil spills on our beaches are proffered whenever the topic is brought up. I look to the oil rigs you reference. How have they fared? Any major environmental disasters? Not that I know of - even with all of the major hurricanes that went through there in 2004 and 2005. So, IMO, the happiness of Floridians is not the source of your angst.
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      05-25-2008, 08:49 PM   #36
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Bush is a moron. Bushies support him. Iraq is a mess and gas is > $4.
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      05-26-2008, 05:46 PM   #37
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Bush is a moron. Bushies support him. Iraq is a mess and gas is > $4.
Gas prices have absolutely nothing to do with Bush.
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      05-26-2008, 09:08 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by FirstClass View Post
Gas prices have absolutely nothing to do with Bush.
*DING*

Bush isn't the sole problem. People just want someone to blame and he's the man to fill that void. I'd like to see some of you arm-chair Presidents do half the stuff he has, I know I can't.

Yes, Republicans have odd views but so do Dems. I do think the way everyone(individuals rich or poor and businesses large or small) is taxed needs to be adjusted. I hit the wonderful 35% tax bracket this year, why? I'm single and did well. That's just as f'd up with poor not being taxed very much and rich hardly being taxed.

My proposal is everyone is taxed the same to $X amount of money and after that a sliding scale is introduced to a cap level where taxation falls off. So hypothetically everyone no matter of wealth is taxed 20% from $0-$100,000, then the scale is introduced in brackets like $100k-150k is taxed another 10% on just that, 150-200k 8% and so on till like 500k you're no longer taxed. The amount's can be raised/adjusted or whatever I'm just throwing ideas out there. Overall the busting the middle classes ass to make up for the poor not making enough to be taxed enough and the rich to being taxed enough is BS. There are far better ways to achieve something to make both dems and republicans happy. You could even throw in ways to buy back percentage points to lower you taxes by giving donations or volunteering time, etc.


Oh and stop bitching about gas already and it's not Bush's fault either. If you own/drive a BMW or any equivalent or higher end car gas won't hurt you that bad for a couple more dollars/gal.

Who knows the options are unlimited, it's just changing the current process which no one will be willing to do anything about cuz someone WILL ALWAYS BITCH. It's human nature to bitch, didn't you guys know that already? Shit, you've been doing it since the day you were born, nothing has changed.
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      05-26-2008, 11:23 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im View Post
After $1T war, $4/gallon gas, Osama well and alive after what he did to us on 9-11, G. Dub still has supporters...
Hmmm. Another inflamatory comment that is not well thought out and baseless.
$1T war? No. What everyone who quotes the "cost of the war" fails to do is subtract the base cost of having the military around to begin with. Most of the cost would have been spent anyway. And $1T is way off. It is about double before subtracting the basic cost of maintaining the military units which would have had to be spent to begin with.

$4 a gallon gas. We should be kissing Bush's butt its so low. Kerry's plan was to repeal tax breaks for oil companies and add a tax to gas. This would have raised the price to over $4 years ago. His rationale was we would use less and be less dependent as a result. Real rationale is more tax money for more spending, i.e. Democrat montra. Unfortunately, Bush has failed to cut spending, which as a Republican he should be criticized for strongly.
Current Dem plan is to cut tax breaks on big oil and to impose a "windfall tax" on them. They make a 10% profit margin on gas. Most businesses do 25% or higher. This is economy of scale. They have a large business. They aren't making "windfalls" vs. size of the business. The result is the oil companies will pass these costs onto us in the form of higher prices. They won't pay, why should they?
The real solution is to add supply. Oil prices are up due to 2 reasons.
1. OPEC is payed in Euros, not dollars. The value of the dollar has been dropping vs. the Euro. So it costs more dollars to buy the oil at the same Euro price.
Solution, open up ANWR, which has enough oil to replace everything coming from Saudi for the next 80 years. This is at the cost of maybe possibly interupting the migration of some elk. However, the pipeline made over 30 years ago didn't do this and has been a great success. With 30 years in tech advances, think a modern BMW vs a '70s model 2002, I think we can do better.

Solution, allow us to drill offshore in the Gulf, etc. Right now the Chinese, Russians, and Cubans drill just off our shores where we can't. Which of these do you trust more than an American company drilling?

Both of these solutions would make more oil in US dollars, and less going toward OPEC oil, lowering prices and lowering the money flowing into the hands of countries that don't like us.

2. Not enough refining. We haven't built a refinery since the '70s. Back then we had an excess refining capacity in the 20% range. This meant we could refine 20%+ faster than we consumed. We are now under 5%. The market views this as below safety levels. This means if we have a problem at ONE refinery, we can't meet demand. This danger is priced into the cost of refined materials. This is a result of NIMBY, Not In My Back Yard.

Until we fix 1 and 2, we will have gas prices continue to increase, regardless of what is done in Washington by anyone.

McCain has pushed for both as has Bush. The Dems have blocked both in the house and Senate. You make the call but this is the reality. Another helpful thing the Dems have squashed is Nuke plants. We have had hundreds running since the '70s, and tech again has advanced. Sorry, but I've been in the financial industry for decades and speak to authorities on this stuff on a regular basis.

Economy as a Dem platform? Not buying. Tax cuts are the only thing that has kept us afloat. Currently our Corporate tax is 2nd highest amoung all nations making us very uncompetitive. And our economy started to tank on 3/25/00, almost a full year before Bush took office.

National Security? Nope. We haven't been attacked since 9/11 and we had been attacked every other year for a decade or so before.

The war? I think it was started legit but has been a SNAFU. But if we get out now, it will be FUBAR and we will be back for round 2 in 2014 with far more cost and casualties than if we had stayed. Just my opinion.

Abortion? Guns? Social welfare? Medical care for all vs. Medical advancement? These are issues that you can argue either way. I have my views as do all. Depends what you want. I'm middle of the road and more a moderate and independent than anything else, but growing up in NY/NJ, I don't like BS. If the Dems could come up with someone worth voting for, like a Lieberman maybe? then maybe they would win an election. If they win this one and do what they say they want to do, the era of the Republican will begin in 2012 and last for decades.
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      05-27-2008, 02:25 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by 92tripleblack View Post
We should be kissing Bush's butt its so low.
I'll let you do that. You seem very good at it...
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      05-27-2008, 07:22 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by e90im View Post
I'll let you do that. You seem very good at it...
And that's where you stopped reading....

Very narrow minded. That is the downfall of our country. Not a dumb President. Narrow minded sheep called humans, and there's way too fucking many of them.
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      05-27-2008, 10:18 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 92tripleblack View Post
Hmmm. Another inflamatory comment that is not well thought out and baseless.
$1T war? No. What everyone who quotes the "cost of the war" fails to do is subtract the base cost of having the military around to begin with. Most of the cost would have been spent anyway. And $1T is way off. It is about double before subtracting the basic cost of maintaining the military units which would have had to be spent to begin with.

$4 a gallon gas. We should be kissing Bush's butt its so low. Kerry's plan was to repeal tax breaks for oil companies and add a tax to gas. This would have raised the price to over $4 years ago. His rationale was we would use less and be less dependent as a result. Real rationale is more tax money for more spending, i.e. Democrat montra. Unfortunately, Bush has failed to cut spending, which as a Republican he should be criticized for strongly.
Current Dem plan is to cut tax breaks on big oil and to impose a "windfall tax" on them. They make a 10% profit margin on gas. Most businesses do 25% or higher. This is economy of scale. They have a large business. They aren't making "windfalls" vs. size of the business. The result is the oil companies will pass these costs onto us in the form of higher prices. They won't pay, why should they?
The real solution is to add supply. Oil prices are up due to 2 reasons.
1. OPEC is payed in Euros, not dollars. The value of the dollar has been dropping vs. the Euro. So it costs more dollars to buy the oil at the same Euro price.
Solution, open up ANWR, which has enough oil to replace everything coming from Saudi for the next 80 years. This is at the cost of maybe possibly interupting the migration of some elk. However, the pipeline made over 30 years ago didn't do this and has been a great success. With 30 years in tech advances, think a modern BMW vs a '70s model 2002, I think we can do better.

Solution, allow us to drill offshore in the Gulf, etc. Right now the Chinese, Russians, and Cubans drill just off our shores where we can't. Which of these do you trust more than an American company drilling?

Both of these solutions would make more oil in US dollars, and less going toward OPEC oil, lowering prices and lowering the money flowing into the hands of countries that don't like us.

2. Not enough refining. We haven't built a refinery since the '70s. Back then we had an excess refining capacity in the 20% range. This meant we could refine 20%+ faster than we consumed. We are now under 5%. The market views this as below safety levels. This means if we have a problem at ONE refinery, we can't meet demand. This danger is priced into the cost of refined materials. This is a result of NIMBY, Not In My Back Yard.

Until we fix 1 and 2, we will have gas prices continue to increase, regardless of what is done in Washington by anyone.

McCain has pushed for both as has Bush. The Dems have blocked both in the house and Senate. You make the call but this is the reality. Another helpful thing the Dems have squashed is Nuke plants. We have had hundreds running since the '70s, and tech again has advanced. Sorry, but I've been in the financial industry for decades and speak to authorities on this stuff on a regular basis.

Economy as a Dem platform? Not buying. Tax cuts are the only thing that has kept us afloat. Currently our Corporate tax is 2nd highest amoung all nations making us very uncompetitive. And our economy started to tank on 3/25/00, almost a full year before Bush took office.

National Security? Nope. We haven't been attacked since 9/11 and we had been attacked every other year for a decade or so before.

The war? I think it was started legit but has been a SNAFU. But if we get out now, it will be FUBAR and we will be back for round 2 in 2014 with far more cost and casualties than if we had stayed. Just my opinion.

Abortion? Guns? Social welfare? Medical care for all vs. Medical advancement? These are issues that you can argue either way. I have my views as do all. Depends what you want. I'm middle of the road and more a moderate and independent than anything else, but growing up in NY/NJ, I don't like BS. If the Dems could come up with someone worth voting for, like a Lieberman maybe? then maybe they would win an election. If they win this one and do what they say they want to do, the era of the Republican will begin in 2012 and last for decades.
Thank you.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 92tripleblack View Post
Hmmm. Another inflamatory comment that is not well thought out and baseless.
$1T war? No. What everyone who quotes the "cost of the war" fails to do is subtract the base cost of having the military around to begin with. Most of the cost would have been spent anyway. And $1T is way off. It is about double before subtracting the basic cost of maintaining the military units which would have had to be spent to begin with.

$4 a gallon gas. We should be kissing Bush's butt its so low. Kerry's plan was to repeal tax breaks for oil companies and add a tax to gas. This would have raised the price to over $4 years ago. His rationale was we would use less and be less dependent as a result. Real rationale is more tax money for more spending, i.e. Democrat montra. Unfortunately, Bush has failed to cut spending, which as a Republican he should be criticized for strongly.
Current Dem plan is to cut tax breaks on big oil and to impose a "windfall tax" on them. They make a 10% profit margin on gas. Most businesses do 25% or higher. This is economy of scale. They have a large business. They aren't making "windfalls" vs. size of the business. The result is the oil companies will pass these costs onto us in the form of higher prices. They won't pay, why should they?
The real solution is to add supply. Oil prices are up due to 2 reasons.
1. OPEC is payed in Euros, not dollars. The value of the dollar has been dropping vs. the Euro. So it costs more dollars to buy the oil at the same Euro price.
Solution, open up ANWR, which has enough oil to replace everything coming from Saudi for the next 80 years. This is at the cost of maybe possibly interupting the migration of some elk. However, the pipeline made over 30 years ago didn't do this and has been a great success. With 30 years in tech advances, think a modern BMW vs a '70s model 2002, I think we can do better.

Solution, allow us to drill offshore in the Gulf, etc. Right now the Chinese, Russians, and Cubans drill just off our shores where we can't. Which of these do you trust more than an American company drilling?

Both of these solutions would make more oil in US dollars, and less going toward OPEC oil, lowering prices and lowering the money flowing into the hands of countries that don't like us.

2. Not enough refining. We haven't built a refinery since the '70s. Back then we had an excess refining capacity in the 20% range. This meant we could refine 20%+ faster than we consumed. We are now under 5%. The market views this as below safety levels. This means if we have a problem at ONE refinery, we can't meet demand. This danger is priced into the cost of refined materials. This is a result of NIMBY, Not In My Back Yard.

Until we fix 1 and 2, we will have gas prices continue to increase, regardless of what is done in Washington by anyone.

McCain has pushed for both as has Bush. The Dems have blocked both in the house and Senate. You make the call but this is the reality. Another helpful thing the Dems have squashed is Nuke plants. We have had hundreds running since the '70s, and tech again has advanced. Sorry, but I've been in the financial industry for decades and speak to authorities on this stuff on a regular basis.

Economy as a Dem platform? Not buying. Tax cuts are the only thing that has kept us afloat. Currently our Corporate tax is 2nd highest amoung all nations making us very uncompetitive. And our economy started to tank on 3/25/00, almost a full year before Bush took office.

National Security? Nope. We haven't been attacked since 9/11 and we had been attacked every other year for a decade or so before.

The war? I think it was started legit but has been a SNAFU. But if we get out now, it will be FUBAR and we will be back for round 2 in 2014 with far more cost and casualties than if we had stayed. Just my opinion.

Abortion? Guns? Social welfare? Medical care for all vs. Medical advancement? These are issues that you can argue either way. I have my views as do all. Depends what you want. I'm middle of the road and more a moderate and independent than anything else, but growing up in NY/NJ, I don't like BS. If the Dems could come up with someone worth voting for, like a Lieberman maybe? then maybe they would win an election. If they win this one and do what they say they want to do, the era of the Republican will begin in 2012 and last for decades.
WOW, I cannot disagree more...
One suggestion for you -- take that HUGE tax break that Bush gave you and purchase a plane ticket to Asia and Europe. Spend there a month, not more needed -- talk to people.

Then come back and see if your mind will change.
It is very important to talk to people and understand other than material (so important to like-you) side of their lives...

National security -- not sure why is 7 years of no attack such a great deal. They did it, they showed the world, they did it on Bush's watch when he had the warnings he ignored...

Our Education is SHIT + Expensive. Needs to be fixed.
Our medical, even super expensive is SHIT and is becoming more and more of a business rather than "care". I pwersonally have a few of examples to prove that...

As for the gas prices...I'd like to hold off the comment (pro or against Bush) and see what happens by 2010... 400% increase in 8 years, lets see if it'll continue that way. If not -- the answer is obvious, if yes -- the same... Someone did not understand it all... But at this time, it is too early to kiss Bush's ass. And just to remember -- Bush took over the country and economy that was OK, and is leaving a total ruins for the next one...

And to the comment I underlined above -- "countries that do not like us"???
All I saw Bush hugging with their leaders over and over... Not sure what kind of love that is...
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      05-27-2008, 12:56 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
One suggestion for you -- take that HUGE tax break that Bush gave you
That tax break that in no way favored higher income brackets?
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Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
Our Education is SHIT + Expensive. Needs to be fixed.
You mean that free education that you get from the time you're 6 until you're 18? I agree public schools in many areas are shit, but you can't say it's expensive when it's free. And if it's expensive, then it isn't shit because it's a good private school.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
Our medical, even super expensive is SHIT
Which is why people come from all over the world to get treated here? Which is why most pioneering surgeries are performed here? Yes it's more expensive here, but it's 2nd to none. I agree that it's turning into a business more than it should be these days, but patients are the ones to blame. Malpractice suits left and right for simple mistakes that were in no way negligent. Can't offer inexpensive care when your insurance premiums against lawsuits are through the roof.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
As for the gas prices...I'd like to hold off the comment (pro or against Bush) and see what happens by 2010... 400% increase in 8 years, lets see if it'll continue that way. If not -- the answer is obvious, if yes -- the same... Someone did not understand it all... But at this time, it is too early to kiss Bush's ass. And just to remember -- Bush took over the country and economy that was OK, and is leaving a total ruins for the next one...
I've attached a graph of Chinese oil imports, read it for yourself. (Note that it's by value, not bbl, but you still get the gist of things) Also, the economic problems are tied into the subprime meltdown, which wasn't the President's fault but the fault of the banks doing all manner if ill advised things. You can blame Bush partially for inflation, because he's a fucking moron running these damn deficits. WTB: conservative President, what's happened to my party
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# I'm convinced that today the majority of Americans want what those first Americans wanted: A better life for themselves and their children; a minimum of government authority. Very simply, they want to be left alone in peace and safety to take care of the family by earning an honest dollar and putting away some savings. This may not sound too exciting, but there is something magnificent about it. On the farm, on the street corner, in the factory and in the kitchen, millions of us ask nothing more, but certainly nothing less than to live our own lives according to our values at peace with ourselves, our neighbors and the world.
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shit, if i had that kind of money id buy a gtstreet for monday, an ascari a10 for tuesday, a DBS for wednesday and id just ride jessica alba the rest of the week.
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