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      05-17-2008, 12:18 PM   #23
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The 7:29 time for the GTR is quite optimistic.....think about it.....look at all the other cars that are sub 7:40 are wicked exotics....even the Veyron is 7:40 with a power to weight of 4.3.... I did see a time of 7:50 for a GTR and that seems about right given its power-weight-street tires-tire size.... Yes the AWD helps a bit and the tranny helps a bit...
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      05-17-2008, 08:46 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icemang17 View Post
The 7:29 time for the GTR is quite optimistic.....think about it.....look at all the other cars that are sub 7:40 are wicked exotics....even the Veyron is 7:40 with a power to weight of 4.3.... I did see a time of 7:50 for a GTR and that seems about right given its power-weight-street tires-tire size.... Yes the AWD helps a bit and the tranny helps a bit...
yes...but M3 didn't even get close to 7:50...so sad....
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      05-17-2008, 10:33 PM   #25
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GTR will be lucky to break 8 minutes...consider:
997TT 3500/480/PSC's/best Ring driver around/7:54
GTR 3900/480/street tires/????/> 7:54

the 997TT has much more torque over a wider band...
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      05-17-2008, 10:35 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtPE View Post
GTR will be lucky to break 8 minutes...consider:
997TT 3500/480/PSC's/best Ring driver around/7:54
GTR 3900/480/street tires/????/> 7:54

the 997TT has much more torque over a wider band...
What are you guys talking about? The GTR already broke 8, in fact it broke 7:30.
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      05-17-2008, 11:04 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by icemang17 View Post
8:05 is the official #....but the E46 CSL did a 7:50.....& the standard E46 M3 did 8:22.... Since the RS4 is under 8 minutes, I also think an M3 can break 8 minutes by a little bit
This time should be taken with a grain of salt. The RS4 used in this test was NOT stock.

I wish I saved photos from the run, but the car clearly has suspension work done to it.
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      05-17-2008, 11:06 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Just_me View Post
officiall time for RS4 is 8.09 min and its a sportauto time. Time 8.05 min for M3 is also a sportauto time. Both times done with the same driver which is crucial when comparing cars with others.
Yup...also, the RS4 used in sport auto was equipped with cup tires and ceramic brakes (both not offered here in the US).

Now imagine what the M3 could do with ceramic brakes and cup tires
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      05-17-2008, 11:23 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtPE View Post
what's the average speed for an M3 at the Glen?

the Ring is 95 mph, that's pretty fast...
a lot of straights...
a lot of turns are banked also...high speeed sweepers...
and depends on the weather and driver skill...

they are saying the GTR did 7:29 on street tires (I don't believe it)
3900/480/street tires/????
2700/650/semi-slicks/a racing driver...
same time...

my point is, if it picked up 2 sec/mile due to tires it would be doing ~7 flat
I had to break out the calculator. Average speed of a stock M3 is about 82 mph driven by a non-professional driver.

I'm only saying that an increase of only 5 seconds on the 13 mile ring by going to R compounds seems low.

Just curious, have you driven the ring? Because I would not say that "lots of turns are banked" in fact some turns are off camber. I know the Glen does have banked turns, all of them are banked.
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      05-18-2008, 07:55 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skierman64 View Post
I had to break out the calculator. Average speed of a stock M3 is about 82 mph driven by a non-professional driver.

I'm only saying that an increase of only 5 seconds on the 13 mile ring by going to R compounds seems low.

Just curious, have you driven the ring? Because I would not say that "lots of turns are banked" in fact some turns are off camber. I know the Glen does have banked turns, all of them are banked.

autoSport has run laps same car, same driver, sport vs non-sport...works out ~5 sec...I'm guessing the difference between the PS2's and PSC+'s is probably less depending on conditions:
nice, hot, dry day more...
overcast ~50F ~ same
damp and cool, probably less

never been, but have an accurate track map, and most have banking, not a lot on some, but eneough to clear water...makes sense, it was built as a race track...

iirc correctly both the M3 and CSL were run on cooler days...
sportAUTO lists the weather conditions
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      05-18-2008, 08:02 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badfish View Post
What are you guys talking about? The GTR already broke 8, in fact it broke 7:30.
sure a stock GTR did, on street tires...

same times:
Zonda 2700/650/630/sport tires/dry/race driver
GTR 3900/480/435/street tires/damp/????

does not compute...a lb/HP 1/2 as much, 4.15 vs 8.13!
not to mention the tires...worth at least 5 seconds...
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      05-18-2008, 09:03 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtPE View Post
sure a stock GTR did, on street tires...

same times:
Zonda 2700/650/630/sport tires/dry/race driver
GTR 3900/480/435/street tires/damp/????

does not compute...a lb/HP 1/2 as much, 4.15 vs 8.13!
not to mention the tires...worth at least 5 seconds...
I'm not sure what the debate is here but the GTR was unmodified and had standard tires.

Quote:
Nissan announced today the Nissan GT-R Nurburgring record that places it among the fastest cars at the Ring with a lap time of 7 minutes and 29 seconds. The Nissan GT-R Nurburgring record was recorded on April 16 and 17 and was set by chief test driver Tochio Suzuki using a standard specification car. The previous record of 7:38 also belongs to Tochio Suzuki, and was achieved on a damp track.

Nissan Press Release:

GT-R ACHIEVES UNDER 7:30 AT NÜRBURGRING
- GT-R among the fastest ever production road cars at the ‘Ring’ -

Nissan today announced that its GT-R supercar
achieved a lap time at the infamous Nürburgring in Germany of seven minutes and 29 seconds. Recorded on April 16 and 17, the GT-R used was a base specification car and fitted with the standard Japanese market tires. Driven by GT-R chief test driver Tochio Suzuki, this latest lap time beats the previous fastest time for the GT-R by nine seconds.

The previous best lap time for GT-R of 7:38, also driven by Suzuki, was one of the fastest laps achieved by a production car despite conditions being slightly damp on two corners.
“At last year’s testing, we were frustrated by the conditions at the Nürburgring, always believing that the GT-R could go under seven minutes 30 seconds,” said Kazutoshi Mizuno, Chief Vehicle Engineer for GT-R. “Below seven minutes 30 seconds, the GT-R proves it is among the fastest mass-production cars in the world. We set out to build a multi-performance supercar accessible to anyone, anytime and anywhere – I believe the GT-R has delivered that promise.”

Deliveries of the all-new GT-R began in Japan in December 2007. Sales in the US and Canada start in July and extend to Europe and other markets over the next 12 months.
Quote:
The Nissan GT-R can now lay claim to being one of the fastest production cars in the world after GT-R chief test driver Tochio Suzuki completed the famous Nurburgring circuit in Germany in just 7 minutes 29 seconds. According to our records, this puts the GT-R in second place for fastest laps by unmodified production cars just behind the Pagani Zonda F which posted a time of 7 minutes and 27 seconds last November. The time completely destroys the GT-R's previous best lap of 7 minutes 38 seconds achieved last year in slightly damp conditions.
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      05-18-2008, 09:17 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by badfish View Post
I'm not sure what the debate is here but the GTR was unmodified and had standard tires.
the 'debate' is a car weighing 1200 lbs more (44% more!), with 25% less HP and torque, on street tires in the damp can NOT be as fast a car with 1/2 the lb/HP ratio on semi-slicks in the dry driven by a race driver ;D

not in this intertial reference frame or dimension
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      05-18-2008, 09:18 PM   #34
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i certainly believe it.

if you were to tell me that a car weighing almost 4000 lbs, has 6 gears, and *only* 480 hp could post 0-60 times of 3.1 - 3.2 sec, id say you were fucking crazy.

but guess what, it does. and theres video to prove it.

the only thing i dont believe pertaining to the gtr is that it has 480 horses, id bet its upwards of 500 at least.
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      05-18-2008, 09:29 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by heyimsexy View Post
i certainly believe it.

if you were to tell me that a car weighing almost 4000 lbs, has 6 gears, and *only* 480 hp could post 0-60 times of 3.1 - 3.2 sec, id say you were fucking crazy.

but guess what, it does. and theres video to prove it.

the only thing i dont believe pertaining to the gtr is that it has 480 horses, id bet its upwards of 500 at least.
you only start once on the Ring (if at all), so launch control and awd aren't a huge advantage...average speed >100 mph

I've seen times as high as 3.8 sec...
and tests where it is much slower than the Z06 and 997TT, 2 sec to 120 mph http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/d...6911_chart.pdf
which take > 7:50 with semi-slicks and the best Ring driver in the world...
and all 3 are ~ the same to 60, that stat is meaningless when talking Ring times...
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      05-18-2008, 10:05 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtPE View Post
that stat is meaningless when talking Ring times...
youve missed my point. im telling you that on paper the numbers dont tell the whole story, as in the 0-60 example. im well aware you only start once during a lap, bro (if not a rolling start...).

as new technology becomes available, our perception of what's possible needs to change. theres a whole lot of technology in the gtr, i dont think nissan is bullshitting the world with this. theyve spent nearly a decade developing this vehicle to be a porsche killer of supercar status, and it is.
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      05-18-2008, 11:33 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtPE View Post
the 'debate' is a car weighing 1200 lbs more (44% more!), with 25% less HP and torque, on street tires in the damp can NOT be as fast a car with 1/2 the lb/HP ratio on semi-slicks in the dry driven by a race driver ;D

not in this intertial reference frame or dimension
I'm trying understand what you are saying here. You think the ring time for the GTR is bogus? It's well known that the GTR's stated specs are very underrated.
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      05-19-2008, 03:17 AM   #38
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why would Nissan risk lying to ppl
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      05-19-2008, 11:28 AM   #39
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The laws of physics do not break......however Nissan seems to have done a good job bending them a little bit.....BUT the simple fact remains that how does a car 100% "stock" run times around the ring that are equal to top level super cars with at least 600hp and far less weight.... Remember the ring is a fairly high speed track & at higher speeds both the 997TT and Z06 WALK AWAY from the GTR...many graphs have shown this..... So whatever advantage it gets by gearing at AWD is lost on the longer straights....

Of course having a skilled driver accounts for A LOT....still a stock GTR does 7:29....I call serious BS on this.....& why would Nissan do it....for publicity plain and simple...make some outrageous claims that ZERO people have been able to verifiy yet.... get all kinds of chatter in online forums equals more car sales for you...then once someone owns the car and finds out (after crashing) that they can't break 8:00 at the ring, what does Nissan care..they just sell them another GTR!!
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Last edited by icemang17; 05-19-2008 at 05:15 PM.
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      05-19-2008, 01:00 PM   #40
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Ok, no need to restart this thread. You guys believe whatever you want to believe.
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      05-19-2008, 04:44 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icemang17 View Post
The laws of physics to not break......however Nissan seems to have done a good job bending them a little bit.....BUT the simple fact remains that how does a car 100% "stock" run times around the ring that are equal to top level super cars with at least 600hp and far less weight.... Remember the ring is a fairly high speed track & at higher speeds both the 997TT and Z06 WALK AWAY from the GTR...many graphs have shown this..... So whatever advantage it gets by gearing at AWD is lost on the longer straights....

Of course having a skilled driver accounts for A LOT....still a stock GTR does 7:29....I call serious BS on this.....& why would Nissan do it....for publicity plain and simple...make some outrageous claims that ZERO people have been able to verifiy yet.... get all kinds of chatter in online forums equals more car sales for you...then once someone owns the car and finds out (after crashing) that they can't break 8:00 at the ring, what does Nissan care..they just sell them another GTR!!
Bingo!

I would say tech makes a big difference...if we were comparing this to non-tech cars...but the fact that Porsche has been building sports cars for 60 yrs leads me to believe that nissan will not have some kind of quantum leap advantage over them...I'm an engineer, I believe in science, not magic

the Zonda, well, 1200 lbs lighter, 170+ HP, 100+ lb ft, semi-slicks, racing driver, on a dry track...same time? I'm a tad skeptical
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      05-19-2008, 05:27 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtPE View Post
Bingo!

I would say tech makes a big difference...if we were comparing this to non-tech cars...but the fact that Porsche has been building sports cars for 60 yrs leads me to believe that nissan will not have some kind of quantum leap advantage over them...I'm an engineer, I believe in science, not magic

the Zonda, well, 1200 lbs lighter, 170+ HP, 100+ lb ft, semi-slicks, racing driver, on a dry track...same time? I'm a tad skeptical
Don't forget that Porsche has won more races than any other carmaker....so its safe to say they know how to get around a racetrack...yet their car with the same power and less weight, but also hi-tech with AWD trails the GTR by 15 seconds?? So the company with 28,000 race wins under its belt gets beat by that much?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_in_motorsport
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      05-19-2008, 08:34 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icemang17 View Post
Don't forget that Porsche has won more races than any other carmaker....so its safe to say they know how to get around a racetrack...yet their car with the same power and less weight, but also hi-tech with AWD trails the GTR by 15 seconds?? So the company with 28,000 race wins under its belt gets beat by that much?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_in_motorsport
that's an understatement to say the least

to make it even more 'questionable'
the 997TT did 7:54, with no less than Horst at the wheel
in the dry, with PSC's, same HP, more torque over a wider band and 350 lbs lighter...

25 sec difference...

people, please don't confuse healthy skepticism with hatin'

7:54 --- 156.46 km/h -- Porsche 997 Turbo, 480 PS/1620 kg (sport auto 06/07) http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?vie...D=2&tID=126501
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPvBu...e=user&search=
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      05-20-2008, 06:07 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icemang17 View Post
Remember the ring is a fairly high speed track & at higher speeds both the 997TT and Z06 WALK AWAY from the GTR...
you choice of words is incorrect; considering how the gtr beat the z06 by about 20 seconds, you really should say "at higher speeds both the 997TT and Z06 UNSUCCESSFULLY TRY AND CATCH UP with the GTR..."

Quote:
once someone owns the car and finds out (after crashing) that they can't break 8:00 at the ring, what does Nissan care..they just sell them another GTR!!
sounds like youre just bitter that youve already put down $60k on the slower car. desperately wishing the m3 to be faster than the gtr isnt gonna change anything.

im a bmw fanboy myself, but you cant deny the machine nissan has created. even if you throw out the 7:29 time and go by the 7:38 RECORDED
run, thats still fucking unbelievable. deal with it.


off topic - i see youre in stockton, that heatwave mustve been killing you last week. thursday was fucking hell.
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