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      05-14-2008, 11:39 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Hey don't hold back man - tell us what you really think of him.

It is pretty interesting though, the whole thing. I mean people have been tuning turbo'd cars for years so none of this should be new should it? Or is the 335i the first car that you could tune 'undetected'?

Modern technology is actually allowing the manufacturers to level the playing field. The modern DME controls everything in a car and with encryption, they can virtually eliminate access.

1024 bit RSA encryption on the DMEs....means no access for you. A grease monkey won't be tuning cars like they were in the 80's and 90's.

See in a year how the GTR guys are going to do....I think it will be very similar to the 335 today....maybe worst for the tuners because the Japanese OEMs really know their electronics.
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      05-14-2008, 11:41 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Hey don't hold back man - tell us what you really think of him.

It is pretty interesting though, the whole thing. I mean people have been tuning turbo'd cars for years so none of this should be new should it? Or is the 335i the first car that you could tune 'undetected'?
Its nothing new, except to many owners of 335i's who saw shiv and other tuners as "Gods" while those of us who had owned or had friends who had owned EVOs and STis knew the real stories, the damages that can happen and the many issues that many of the tuners had in the past. But you will find that no one on e90post really cares to listen. They want power and they believe anyone who gives it to them is great, and if they can figure a way to screw BMW by hiding the fact something they did wrong blew the engine, they label you as a "GOD". Course those same people will scream and bitch and moan about all the ways BMW is screwing them.......its a frigging joke over there.
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      05-14-2008, 11:42 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Modern technology is actually allowing the manufacturers to level the playing field. The modern DME controls everything in a car and with encryption, they can virtually eliminate access.

1024 bit RSA encryption on the DMEs....means no access for you. A grease monkey won't be tuning cars like they were in the 80's and 90's.

See in a year how the GTR guys are going to do....I think it will be very similar to the 335 today....maybe worst for the tuners because the Japanese OEMs really know their electronics.
Perfectly said.
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      05-14-2008, 11:59 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEllis View Post
Here is the reality. The simple answer is "YES" a chipped 335i can be as fast as an M3 in a straight line.

The reality is that the chip also brings with it a voided warrenty (if your honest), frequent limp modes (check out the FI section of E90post.com), and questionable reliability over the life of the car. And, you are still left with a car that looks like the other 200,000+ 335i's and 328's (I guess some would like that).

To make a 335i on par with an M3 (in my opinion)...You would need to go the Dinan software route ($2000) which requires the Dinan oil cooler ($2000) but comes with Dinans engine warrenty. However, the Dinan tune is a milder tune and the car would still struggle to keep up with the M3 so you would need the stage 2 which includes an Intercooler (another $2000) and the exhaust (another 1-2K) as well as the install costs (probably $500 at this point). Then to have a unique looking 335 you would at least need the Aero kit ($2000?). After that you have to consider the fact that the 335i still wont keep up with the M3 at the track but a new coilover suspension ($2000) might help with that. Then, at the very least, you would need to switch from run flats to a real performance tire ($1500).... in the end I figured I would have spent at least $12,000 on upgrades alone and that doesnt include aftermarket wheels an LSD or any paint work that might be required. So basically I would have spent at least 62K (give or take a few K) on my ideal 335i. I am telling you all this because I struggled with the 335i vs. M3 argument. I have also driven both, the M3 is far and away a different car.

In the end I figure I get all the speed of a chipped 335i with better handling and more aggresive looks, along with a full warrenty and factory reliability for what amounts to a small premium over a fully modded 335i.

And, dont forget, if you just want a fast car, buy an 89 Mustang 5.0 and put a supercharger on it.

Jason
Wow what truly admirable patience. Hats off.
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      05-15-2008, 12:31 AM   #27
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I hear you T-Bone and e-love.

The whole thing did seem kind of predictable from the start. But I won't lie - I have been tempted by the cheap power myself and even considered a second 335i for myself for quite some time. Just seems weird that people would be at all surprised that warantees would eventually get voided even by this "undetectable" mod. I mean even in the early days there was always caution that it was a risk. To me, if you are going to mod you might as well get a high mileage used car (335i's like this can be had) and just go in assuming no warranty. Just make it a project car and call it a day.
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      05-15-2008, 12:56 AM   #28
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It's not a mystery why people are stupid about the chip mods and warranties.

#1: The modded (chip only) 335i is cheap and does 1 thing in the M3 class -- straight line -- which is the most important quality to the vast majority of the mod's target audience.
#2: The target audience is the young buyer who cannot afford a M3. Note: "afford" means different things to different people here, but let's just say it's someone who does not want to spend M3 money but wants to drive its equivalent.
#3: The target audience, by being young, has likely not been A) completely fucked over by a car/company yet regarding warranty or B) had the kind of nagging, never gets fixed right problem with a mod that brings you back to stock with no/easy mods.
#4: The target audience also sees a "marketing conspiracy" by BMW to underrate the 335 (to not compete with the E46 M3) and detune the engine to not compete with the E92 M3. Nobody thinks that the turbos are at a lower pressure for reliability and longevity, because these are foreign concepts to the target audience. They're turning in a leased car or selling a financed car in 3 years (ironically, they are most certainly not disclosing that their car was chipped) so what does reliability do for them?
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      05-15-2008, 07:34 AM   #29
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Agreed a chip 335 might win at the dragstrip
But the cars are entirely different- suspension, engine, refinement --its apples and oranges
M differential alone is big deal. Im sorry to tell every hater but the chipped 335 is a great car but its no m3 -- and the m3 is a great car but its no prosche/ferrari
Just different worlds
For the record I own a e46 m3 and a 996 911 so I can compare the 2 and they are different -- both put sh*t eating grins on your face but they are two different girls

Mike
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      05-15-2008, 08:35 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I hear you T-Bone and e-love.

The whole thing did seem kind of predictable from the start. But I won't lie - I have been tempted by the cheap power myself and even considered a second 335i for myself for quite some time. Just seems weird that people would be at all surprised that warantees would eventually get voided even by this "undetectable" mod. I mean even in the early days there was always caution that it was a risk. To me, if you are going to mod you might as well get a high mileage used car (335i's like this can be had) and just go in assuming no warranty. Just make it a project car and call it a day.

Anakin Skywalker when for cheap power and look what happened to him.

Lost his legs, half his scalp, probably his genitals, his wife and his kids being raised by foster parents.

Go for the discipline German / Jedi approach...take the ///M.
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      05-15-2008, 08:40 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Anakin Skywalker when for cheap power and look what happened to him.

Lost his legs, half his scalp, probably his genitals, his wife and his kids being raised by foster parents.

Go for the discipline German / Jedi approach...take the ///M.
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      05-15-2008, 08:42 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Anakin Skywalker when for cheap power and look what happened to him.

Lost his legs, half his scalp, probably his genitals, his wife and his kids being raised by foster parents.

Go for the discipline German / Jedi approach...take the ///M.


May the force be with you.
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      05-15-2008, 09:42 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by par4bmw View Post
When I first came to this forum and saw replies such as yours, I would always think chill out dude. After seeing so many posts like the OP, I wish your reply was a built in feature of the forum's software.
Is this at all possible? That would be so much easier.
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      05-15-2008, 11:54 AM   #34
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Is this true, because if it is bmw fucked up big time, your paying over 65k for an M3, when a dude who payed like 44k is just as fast?!?!?!?!!?

Am i missin something here?

This is rediculous if true, i freakin put down a deposit (only 1K however) but the damn car isnt even faster than 335i
As you see, some people here can be very nice (c'mon guys...).

You can read the great explanation that some people gave you, and they are completely right. Now, it's always about choice... its your car and you can tune it or de-tune it as you want.

Personally, I will always prefer something that's OEM, specially nowadays in where messing with electronics is no easy thing. Not only the tuning manufacture must create a perfect upgrade, but the person that installs it in your car must know what's he is doing.
This not only goes for the engine, but for example, also for the sound system.

And just for the record... the M3 is soooo much than power. Is the whole pack that makes it so great.
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      05-15-2008, 11:59 AM   #35
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Yes, newbies like to bitch about replies like mine. However, spend any time on this forum and one will form the same mindset you have.
lol i been on this forum probably before u were even born bro. i bitch about ur replies too. u probably mean good, but they come across as extremely rude for sure.

hanging on a forum doesnt make a dick out of a nice person. a dick is always a dick, and a nice person is always a nice person
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      05-15-2008, 12:06 PM   #36
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Wow what truly admirable patience. Hats off.
Well its a truly frustrating and interesting topic and, truth be told, I can see the arguments from both sides of the fence. If I was truly eager to jump down the modding rabbit hole again, I might jump on the 335 and its turbo tuning ability. But, I am kinda sick of the tuning world and I have experienced the long term effects of modifications first hand. My new M is staying stock.....

Jason
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      05-15-2008, 12:21 PM   #37
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I have a 335i with sstt, that is the only mod I will do becouse of the warrenty risks, but even if it made my car run 11 flat in the 1/4, I would still rather have the m3. I am mostly on the e90 forum but like to hope over here to see whats going on. I get frusterated at the modded 335i guys who like to talk shit about how the can beat an m3 in the 1/4, who gives a fuck. And I would bet my left nut that the guys who talk the most shit whould choose an m3 over the 335 if they could afford it. I know I would with out a doubt. Sorry for the rant.
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      05-15-2008, 01:01 PM   #38
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The warranty risk is a real risk when modding a 335i. It is also the nuisance factor. I had the car tell me it needed brakes, so I took out the piggyback and dropped it at the dealer. Turned out just a false alarm, so I spent the time taking out the piggyback, bringing the car in, getting it back - all for nuttin'!

If you are willing to take the warranty risk and deal with the nuisance factor, the 335i is an amazing and practical bang-for-the buck (handling included). Then factor in getting 25% better fuel economy than an M3 and you can see why the 335i has so many advocates.

I'll hang onto mine for another year and a half and then pick up a slightly used M3. That first 1-2 years depreciation is a real bugger!
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      05-15-2008, 02:21 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEllis View Post
Here is the reality. The simple answer is "YES" a chipped 335i can be as fast as an M3 in a straight line.

The reality is that the chip also brings with it a voided warrenty (if your honest), frequent limp modes (check out the FI section of E90post.com), and questionable reliability over the life of the car. And, you are still left with a car that looks like the other 200,000+ 335i's and 328's (I guess some would like that).

To make a 335i on par with an M3 (in my opinion)...You would need to go the Dinan software route ($2000) which requires the Dinan oil cooler ($2000) but comes with Dinans engine warrenty. However, the Dinan tune is a milder tune and the car would still struggle to keep up with the M3 so you would need the stage 2 which includes an Intercooler (another $2000) and the exhaust (another 1-2K) as well as the install costs (probably $500 at this point). Then to have a unique looking 335 you would at least need the Aero kit ($2000?). After that you have to consider the fact that the 335i still wont keep up with the M3 at the track but a new coilover suspension ($2000) might help with that. Then, at the very least, you would need to switch from run flats to a real performance tire ($1500).... in the end I figured I would have spent at least $12,000 on upgrades alone and that doesnt include aftermarket wheels an LSD or any paint work that might be required. So basically I would have spent at least 62K (give or take a few K) on my ideal 335i. I am telling you all this because I struggled with the 335i vs. M3 argument. I have also driven both, the M3 is far and away a different car.

In the end I figure I get all the speed of a chipped 335i with better handling and more aggresive looks, along with a full warrenty and factory reliability for what amounts to a small premium over a fully modded 335i.

And, dont forget, if you just want a fast car, buy an 89 Mustang 5.0 and put a supercharger on it.

Jason
Dont forget, you 'll need better brakes too...tack on another 2 to 4K.

In the last issue of Roundel, Dinan's decked out 3 serires, which I believe was meant to and did perform as good as/slightly better than the M3; was indeed impressive, but came out to over $80k. So $35K+ later, you have a car that is "slightly" better(preference) than the factory M3....seems like a lot of work and headache if you ask me. Not to mention, this does not even factor in the technology differences or interior upgrades that an M car comes with.

Both great cars, but in different leagues, that are not simply based on HP or torque figures.

If all you care about is 0 to 60 times; then an M car, let alone a BMW is not the vehicle you should be looking at.

My 2 cents.
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      05-15-2008, 02:31 PM   #40
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They're cracking down on it because they can't sell M3s. They're just sitting on the lots. Marketing.

Anyway, I'm just shit starting. I like my e92 335i Dinan, but I DO NOT LOVE it.

I LOVE the M3.

People will want to believe what they want but M3 sales has nothing whatever to do with 335i tuning.....they are cracking down for emission violations and warranty.

Go boost a bank and upgrade to the M3.
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      05-15-2008, 04:02 PM   #41
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There is many more things which make an M cars special other than just it's performance. Alpina already build an alternative to the M but it's character is totally different, which is how it should be, after all there is only one M.
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      05-15-2008, 08:21 PM   #42
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I was planning on getting a 335 and modding it but picked up my 08 AW M3 yesterday and the 335 pales in comparison. Not in speed but just overall. Handling on the M3 is so much better, the car looks much more agressive, and the sound of the V8 is amazinggg. I have no plans what so ever to mod the M3 because it was engineered to be a sports car and not just a regular 3 series model. No offense to the 335 owners because i had one ordered and think they're great, but there's a reason the ///M cars are top of the line in each series lineup.
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      05-15-2008, 08:37 PM   #43
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I was planning on getting a 335 and modding it but picked up my 08 AW M3 yesterday and the 335 pales in comparison. Not in speed but just overall. Handling on the M3 is so much better, the car looks much more agressive, and the sound of the V8 is amazinggg. I have no plans what so ever to mod the M3 because it was engineered to be a sports car and not just a regular 3 series model. No offense to the 335 owners because i had one ordered and think they're great, but there's a reason the ///M cars are top of the line in each series lineup.

If I gave you 60 liters of fuel and there was $1,000,000 650 km away...what car would you take?


335 FTW!
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      05-15-2008, 08:52 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by trah23 View Post
Is this true, because if it is bmw fucked up big time, your paying over 65k for an M3, when a dude who payed like 44k is just as fast?!?!?!?!!?

Am i missin something here?

This is rediculous if true, i freakin put down a deposit (only 1K however) but the damn car isnt even faster than 335i

... Im at peace with my decision on getting a M, even if I see a C63 AMG or ISF or a GTR or even a chipped turbo on the road....

There at reason some folks pay $20k more for it and others can only wonder and bitch why
I thought about a 335i and putting Dinan in it, but at the end of the day its a 335i
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