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      05-18-2008, 05:55 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J08M3 View Post
I haven't driven the new vette but have had plenty of GM vehicles and can say I'm glad I got a M3 now. Although the drivetrain is quite impressive in the C6. It never seems to take much time before a new GM vehicle starts falling apart and having problems. Plus I prefer the styling of the M3. Not only does it look like a fast aggressive car it also has a nice clean classy look for when you don't want to draw so much attention and just want a nice looking car. Where as the vette only looks fast and aggressive like it just belongs on the track. But that's just my opinion.

Unfortunately I'm still stuck with GM for work cause no one else seems to make a good full sized pickup.
I'd like to see official data that suggests the Corvette is not durable. I know people with C4, C5, and C6 Corvettes and they're just as enamored with them as the day they drove off the dealer's lot.

No car is problem free, and I bet if I go back through BMW's reliability record I can find just as many problems.
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      05-18-2008, 06:04 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supraman View Post
My work is done here, pushrods please. The last good GM product was the 1969 Z28.
Actually, pushrod engines are newer than OHC, which has been used by numerous carmakers not too long after the turn of the 20th century (Fiat, Peugeot, and Alfa Romeo GP to name a few of the vehicles during the 1910s to 1930s). The first OHV engine released commercially in the U.S. was in an Oldsmobile, in 1949.
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      05-18-2008, 06:41 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Supraman View Post
I did not know that, good stuff.
Can you in your wildest dreams think of a F1 car with pushrods with Ricky Bobby driving.
What does that have to do with the current discussion? It goes without saying that just because technology derived from F1 racing resides in an engine does not necessarily make it superior to those that don't have that technology.
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      05-18-2008, 06:52 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunkei View Post
I'd like to see official data that suggests the Corvette is not durable. I know people with C4, C5, and C6 Corvettes and they're just as enamored with them as the day they drove off the dealer's lot.

No car is problem free, and I bet if I go back through BMW's reliability record I can find just as many problems.
I have no idea if the Corvette is durable or not, I never owned one.... I've just owned numerous other GM vehicles. To me it just feels like GM cheaps out on their vehicles wherever possible, aside from the drivetrains which are usually pretty good. That's not a fact, just an opinion.

I'm sure BMW has their share of problems, for example my parents had a 2005 545 and it had problems so BMW switched the VIN on their lease and gave them a brand new '07 550i.
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      05-18-2008, 07:00 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supraman View Post
Of course, my point is that the ZO6 is based on old tec. Its time for a modern engine and a new car from GM
Then by that same argument, the new M3 is based on even older technology, since it's using the same basic OHC design that's been in use for almost 100 years.
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      05-18-2008, 07:07 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J08M3 View Post
I have no idea if the Corvette is durable or not, I never owned one.... I've just owned numerous other GM vehicles. To me it just feels like GM cheaps out on their vehicles wherever possible, aside from the drivetrains which are usually pretty good. That's not a fact, just an opinion.

I'm sure BMW has their share of problems, for example my parents had a 2005 545 and it had problems so BMW switched the VIN on their lease and gave them a brand new '07 550i.
I agree, GM definitely cut corners in the past, and it has cost them dearly (most of the car market). However, I like to exclude the Corvette. The Corvette has always gotten more-than-the-usual attention because GM realizes that it has become an American icon. With the updated C6 version released this year, the Corvette has become a much more refined piece of machinery. Car and Driver remarked on how much the car has improved from a handling standpoint. It most likely won't match a BMW in terms of overall balance and feedback, but I suspect there will be more than a few people would sacrifice that in return for the style, heritage, and value the Corvette offers.
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      05-18-2008, 07:28 PM   #73
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well im almost done resizing those damn pics, ive been so damn busy lately that whenever i try to resize/post em, something would come up.

Also ive kind of decided that after about 6 months, im gonna go ahead and purchase a procharger from mti, there known to produce reliable/ powerful supercharges for pretty good prices (unlike lingenfelter, f'n 48k for a twin turbo that give 750 hp). With the procharge (supercharger, whatever u wanna call it), it should be pushin around 680 bhp and anywhere between 626-647 whp.

For now though, everytime i take it out for a drive, its a freakin blast

BUNKEI, good points on supramans old tech arguement, keep spittin that knowledge at the blatantly biased

Last edited by trah23; 05-18-2008 at 07:48 PM.
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      05-18-2008, 08:08 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by trah23 View Post
Also ive kind of decided that after about 6 months, im gonna go ahead and purchase a procharger from mti, there known to produce reliable/ powerful supercharges for pretty good prices (unlike lingenfelter, f'n 48k for a twin turbo that give 750 hp). With the procharge (supercharger, whatever u wanna call it), it should be pushin around 680 bhp and anywhere between 626-647 whp.
HolioCrap, you'd better be running around on drag radials!

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      05-18-2008, 08:36 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DC52E55 View Post
I hate to say this to all the Z06 haters here:

M3 isn't even half the car as Z06 is. Congrats trah23. I think you made the right choice.
in what way?

Ring time
8:05 vs 7:50
that's 95%, well over half...

all R&T numbers...
1/4 mile, M3 vs Z06
12.5 vs 12 stock
96%, well over 1/2

skid pad, M3 vs Z06
0.98 vs 0.96
102%

slalom, M3 vs Z06
71.4 vs 71.2
100%

80-0, M3 vs Z06
197 vs 206
105%

test mpg, M3 vs Z06
15 vs 14.1
not good to be ahead here

please elaborate
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      05-18-2008, 09:21 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laszlo View Post
I saw a documentary this week on the History Channel and it was on the Z06 factory... I have to admit, it's almost completely hand-made. I haven't seen factory techniques and a process like that since the old school Porsche 911s pre-90s. Amazing car, amazing craftsmanship. I wouldn't mind having one. Go GM.
I saw that, back to back with episodes on a Ferrari factory and BMW factory in S.C. I had the opposite reaction than you did. The BMW facility looked very modern, efficient, well lit. The Ferrari factory looked like it could have been a medical facility. An impressive combination of old world craftsmanship and modern engineering. The Corvette factory, in comparison, looked more like what I would expect a Detroit car factory to look like; dark, dirty, old. (Ya, I know it's in Kentucky). The workers looked like typical UAW folks. Old T-shirts, shorts, eating and drinking while on the assembly line. Just not a very good impression compared to the other two examples where employees were in white lab coats or similar professional looking attire and weren't knawing on a chicken bone with one tooth.
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      05-18-2008, 10:33 PM   #77
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artpe, i like how u pick the highest times that have been recorded with the lowest of the z06.

In actuality that 12.6 quarter mile (along with a 4.3 0-60 time) is pretty the fastest u can get out of M3 (with a skillfull shifter) which in its own rights is pretty badass.

Now as far as the best vette times:

0-60: 3.6 sec
quarter mile: 11.5 sec

Dont give biased data.
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      05-18-2008, 10:50 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trah23 View Post
artpe, i like how u pick the highest times that have been recorded with the lowest of the z06.

In actuality that 12.6 quarter mile (along with a 4.3 0-60 time) is pretty the fastest u can get out of M3 (with a skillfull shifter) which in its own rights is pretty badass.

Now as far as the best vette times:

0-60: 3.6 sec
quarter mile: 11.5 sec

Dont give biased data.
Wrong , at least on one item. 4.1 sec 0-60 has been recorded by R&T.
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      05-19-2008, 12:02 AM   #79
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Maybe they did get 4.1 but remember this, the average shifter or hell even the above average shifter or even a shifter who is pretty damn skilled, will not get that 4.1 sec on an M3. Only a individual who not only is a f'in professional but a professional who shifted exactly perfectly, on an exactly perfect surface (drag strip/track, no inclines, not even the slightest) and on an exactly perfect day (no cross winds).

While I, just an average shifter, have already gotten 3.8 with the help of my buddys tach (records the time, nothing else) on a back road thats driven on daily by a countless number of people.

And i forgot to address one more thing, i completly dumbfounded on how ArtPe tried to insinuate that the M3 gets better mpg than a z06, i tested all my shit so heres some data from reality not some fuckin article u supposedly read.

In the city or fuckin freeway, if im in 4th-6th gear (which basically is all i drive in to conserve gas) i get between 24 & 29 mpg while the M3 gets a maximum of 20-22 mpg. So cut the shit and stop with the bullshit biased corvette bashing, its just lame and childish as hell.
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      05-19-2008, 12:34 AM   #80
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Phew, aright fellas, here some pics
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      05-19-2008, 12:35 AM   #81
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      05-19-2008, 03:12 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtPE View Post
in what way?

Ring time
8:05 vs 7:50
that's 95%, well over half...



please elaborate
FYI, Z06 can run the ring at 7:42.9 if you looked that up correctly. That's about 22 seconds difference, and chevy cobalt SS can run the ring in 8:22, and that's about 17 seconds difference.


Do you consider Chevy Cobalt SS as half the car as M3? What's your point?
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      05-19-2008, 03:50 AM   #83
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crap i completely missed Artpe false nurburg time, good catch DC52E55.

In actuality, like you said, it is 7:43 sec, i love how he skewed all his supposedly accurate times, what an ass.
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      05-19-2008, 10:32 AM   #84
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Art, you make it clear you're an engineer and a numbers guy, so I guess you can be given a little latitude for deliberately taking the "M3 isn't half the car the Z06 is" comment literally, even though it was clear that was a figure of speech.

What you really shouldn't be given any latitude on is your completely strange numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtPE View Post
Ring time
8:05 vs 7:50
that's 95%, well over half...
As has already been said, the Z06 has an official time of 7:42.9, done on stock rubber with a hired assassin on board. The M3 did its 8:05 with Horst aboard, but with PSC+ rubber. Figure the 8:05 to be about right with PS2s and a hired gun...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtPE View Post
all R&T numbers...
1/4 mile, M3 vs Z06
12.5 vs 12 stock
96%, well over 1/2
Funny, now that the M3 is available in the States and R & T can test in their normal venue (as with the Vette), they show 13.0 @ 110.4 mph in the current issue, with the Vette (tested last month) at 11.7 123.7 mph.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtPE View Post
skid pad, M3 vs Z06
0.98 vs 0.96
102%
M3 skid pad, .95G, Vette .99G.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtPE View Post
slalom, M3 vs Z06
71.4 vs 71.2
100%
M3 slalom, 72.9 mph, Vette 70.6 mph. Kudos to the M3, although the Vette's extra 4.4 inches of width hurts it here (and nowhere else).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtPE View Post
80-0, M3 vs Z06
197 vs 206
105%
M3 80 - 0, 195 feet, Vette 189 feet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtPE View Post
test mpg, M3 vs Z06
15 vs 14.1
not good to be ahead here
M3 test mpg, 14.6 mpg, Vette 17.5 mpg. M3 EPA 14/20, Vette EPA 15/24.

In short Art, if you're going to be a numbers guy, at least get them right. It's not possible to avoid BMW Kool-Aid drinkers on a site such as this, but I had you figured a little differently.

Bruce
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      05-19-2008, 11:01 AM   #85
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Numbers and so on are a really great tool to compare cars. But to make it apples to apples they really need to be driven at the same place at the same time, i.e. all factors that can affect these objective results should be the same. Same road surface, same atmosphere, same driver, etc. is needed to get truly comparable results. It's really not worth a pissing contest.

Both are great cars. The M3 is built better (at least better than the vettes I've driven and ridden in), is more practical, luxurious and comfortable. For what the vette loses in these categories to the M3 it gains in all out performance - acceleration, roadholding, etc. Both of these cars are a blast to drive. I'm glad we have the choice. We don't all have to agree with our choices. Let's just agree that they are both great yet different cars and move on. No one can be the best "car". Maybe the best at this or that, but all around it cannot be said because so many things are more important to one person than another.
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      05-19-2008, 11:52 AM   #86
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Z06 if you can
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      05-19-2008, 08:38 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trah23 View Post
artpe, i like how u pick the highest times that have been recorded with the lowest of the z06.

In actuality that 12.6 quarter mile (along with a 4.3 0-60 time) is pretty the fastest u can get out of M3 (with a skillfull shifter) which in its own rights is pretty badass.

Now as far as the best vette times:

0-60: 3.6 sec
quarter mile: 11.5 sec

Dont give biased data.
I used times from the same source...R&T, the only valid comparison...

you are neglecting the rest of the comparisons...
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      05-19-2008, 08:42 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DC52E55 View Post
FYI, Z06 can run the ring at 7:42.9 if you looked that up correctly. That's about 22 seconds difference, and chevy cobalt SS can run the ring in 8:22, and that's about 17 seconds difference.


Do you consider Chevy Cobalt SS as half the car as M3? What's your point?
wrong: same driver...7:49 vs 8:05
the time you quoted was a pre-production special driven by a pro driver...

7:49 --- 158.12 km/h -- Corvette Z06, 512 PS/1440 kg (sport auto 06/07) http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?vie...D=0&tID=129099
www.youtube.com/watch?v=62WfAYRcaHI

the statement was made that the M3 is not 1/2 the car the Z06 was...I countered that is far more than 1/2, and exceeds in some testing parameters...

I never said anything derogatory about the Z06, just called BS when the statement was made that the M3 is not '1/2' the car the vette is...that statement is patently absurd...
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