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      05-12-2008, 09:25 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by flyinb501 View Post
We're not in a recession. You want to see a recession? Vote for Obama... He will murder our economy with all of his proposed spending and government programs.
Yep, officially, we're not (2 consecutive quarters of decline...). But we're hanging by a very very thin thread that will obviously not hold for a long time. Majority of our industry is posting heavy losses or much worse numbers than last year with not so optimistic future predictions. The country is financially drained, consumer spendings are low...
Officially, we're not in recession, but, there is no doubt we're heading for one.

One thing is for sure -- our economy is far from good, and the mad Gov't spending over the last 8 years is going to leave the next WH puppet scratching...
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      05-13-2008, 08:55 AM   #24
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Can you explain how you "know" all that?
Why would trying to do something for the middle class people have worse effect on the economy than continue uncontrollable spending including $200B/year somewhere 1/2 way accross the world?
Trying to do something for the middle class? Haha and what would that be? Get rid of the bush tax cuts and over 1 trillion in new spending? I would consider myself middle class, and if Obama is our president I will suffer financially and be in more of a pinch than I am now.

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The country is financially drained, consumer spendings are low...
Do you think cosumer spending will increase or decrease when most peoples taxes are raised. When we have less money to spend, we're going to spend less. Pretty simple IMO.
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      05-13-2008, 09:34 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by ///Mantis View Post
no, vote for ANYONE and u'll see it. the economy takes about 4-6 years to reflect poor or good management. for example G. Bush's senior's effor reflected in Clinton's era so people thought clinton's policies were good. Bush Jr. inherited good economy despite the .com burst, in his 2nd round in office we started seeing his poor economy management. and whoever the next president is, regardless which party, he will suffer trying to fix what G. Bush Jr. fucked up.
This is one thing I don't think is ever really talked about in school, high school or college. I can't remember which, but either my macro and micro economics professors hammered this home on a constant basis.
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      05-13-2008, 10:43 AM   #26
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no, vote for ANYONE and u'll see it. the economy takes about 4-6 years to reflect poor or good management. for example G. Bush's senior's effor reflected in Clinton's era so people thought clinton's policies were good. Bush Jr. inherited good economy despite the .com burst, in his 2nd round in office we started seeing his poor economy management. and whoever the next president is, regardless which party, he will suffer trying to fix what G. Bush Jr. fucked up.
What gives you the impression that the President of the US manages the economy?
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      05-13-2008, 10:47 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by flyinb501 View Post
Trying to do something for the middle class? Haha and what would that be? Get rid of the bush tax cuts and over 1 trillion in new spending? I would consider myself middle class, and if Obama is our president I will suffer financially and be in more of a pinch than I am now.



Do you think cosumer spending will increase or decrease when most peoples taxes are raised. When we have less money to spend, we're going to spend less. Pretty simple IMO.
OK, so far you told us NOTHING...
You assume that the taxes will be raised so high, that it would affect your spending... You assume that the current tax cuts were a positive thing when they actually set us up for where we are... You assume that having a sure medical care and possible free education would not relef some of your assets...

According you you, the taxes under Clinton were higher than under Bush, but I don't remember that the spending was any short...

How about pour $200B/year into something that would benefit my family instead of Iraq?

So, I am really not clear how you "know" for sure that we're going to be worse off with Obama than 4 more years of this madness?
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      05-13-2008, 11:31 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by flyinb501 View Post
I somewhat agree with you, which is why I think it's funny how ppl think Obama will just turn everything around. "Hope" and "change"! What a joke! I know Obama's plans will have a far worse effect on the economy then anything McCain will do.
how do you "know"?? what can he do to fuck up the economy that bush didnt do?? dont get me wrong, fuck all 3 of them, i think they all will fuck up the US and make it like the soviet union in 1992. they are all in capable of leading this country, leading the economy, the politics or anything else. we're fucked, it's too late for that
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This is one thing I don't think is ever really talked about in school, high school or college. I can't remember which, but either my macro and micro economics professors hammered this home on a constant basis.
yah i learned about it in college haha
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What gives you the impression that the President of the US manages the economy?
haha his administration does! his experts, his war and peace decisions, etc. so yes he is the one responsible.
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      05-13-2008, 11:33 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
OK, so far you told us NOTHING...
You assume that the taxes will be raised so high, that it would affect your spending... You assume that the current tax cuts were a positive thing when they actually set us up for where we are... You assume that having a sure medical care and possible free education would not relef some of your assets...

According you you, the taxes under Clinton were higher than under Bush, but I don't remember that the spending was any short...

How about pour $200B/year into something that would benefit my family instead of Iraq?

So, I am really not clear how you "know" for sure that we're going to be worse off with Obama than 4 more years of this madness?
yah people are freaking out coz they think taxes will go up. which might be true. but if the government stops spending that same money Bush is spending on military and actually spends it on re-developing this country that's just become old and exhausted, that'll help the economy quite a bit. i'd rather pay more taxes and see that money doing something for this country rather than spend less taxes but dont see any of it
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      05-13-2008, 01:16 PM   #30
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haha his administration does! his experts, his war and peace decisions, etc. so yes he is the one responsible.
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the role the President, any president, has in our economy. He can make decisions that have an effect on the economy. He can advocate tax cuts or increases, he can propose government spending, he can play a role in monetary policy through influence with the Fed, and issues of war and peace can influence the economy but he does not manage it. The vast majority of the activity that makes up the US economy takes place without regard to who is in the White House. The President cannot decide to allow consumers to obtain mortgages they cannot repay or allow banks to make stupid lending decisions. To believe that the President manages the economy in any sense of the word is simply mistaken.
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      05-13-2008, 01:19 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
OK, so far you told us NOTHING...
You assume that the taxes will be raised so high, that it would affect your spending... You assume that the current tax cuts were a positive thing when they actually set us up for where we are... You assume that having a sure medical care and possible free education would not relef some of your assets...

According you you, the taxes under Clinton were higher than under Bush, but I don't remember that the spending was any short...

How about pour $200B/year into something that would benefit my family instead of Iraq?

So, I am really not clear how you "know" for sure that we're going to be worse off with Obama than 4 more years of this madness?
I am not a socialist. You are. I do not expect the government to take care of me and solve all my problems. You do. I believe in lower taxes, limited government, and more individual responsibility. You do not. I believe that higher taxes have a negative effect on the economy.

I think if some people spent less time whining and more time working they would be a lot better off.
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      05-13-2008, 01:36 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the role the President, any president, has in our economy. He can make decisions that have an effect on the economy. He can advocate tax cuts or increases, he can propose government spending, he can play a role in monetary policy through influence with the Fed, and issues of war and peace can influence the economy but he does not manage it. The vast majority of the activity that makes up the US economy takes place without regard to who is in the White House. The President cannot decide to allow consumers to obtain mortgages they cannot repay or allow banks to make stupid lending decisions. To believe that the President manages the economy in any sense of the word is simply mistaken.
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      05-13-2008, 01:44 PM   #33
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'nuff said... Obama FTW
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      05-13-2008, 01:46 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by ///Mantis View Post
An intelligent response.

A guess it is simply impossible for someone immersed in socialism/communism to relate to the idea of a free, unmanaged economy.

Mores the pity.
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      05-13-2008, 01:50 PM   #35
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An intelligent response.

A guess it is simply impossible for someone immersed in socialism/communism to relate to the idea of a free, unmanaged economy.

Mores the pity.
lol u call me socialist/communist? should i call u redneck now? coz u do sound like an ignorant one for sure
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      05-13-2008, 02:32 PM   #36
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lol u call me socialist/communist? should i call u redneck now? coz u do sound like an ignorant one for sure
I was under the impression you were raised outside the US. If I am mistaken I apologize.

If you were raised in the US, your belief that the President manages the economy is even sadder.
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      05-13-2008, 02:46 PM   #37
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I was under the impression you were raised outside the US. If I am mistaken I apologize.

If you were raised in the US, your belief that the President manages the economy is even sadder.
yes i was raised outside the US.. altho i grew up quite a few inches here
in any case, im not a socialist or a communist and i resent those labels and consider any discussion with their presence pretty useless. but a president does have a plan and does have an administration that manages it. u want to say president has nothing to do with the economy u'd be a crack-ist
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      05-13-2008, 03:42 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
An intelligent response.

A guess it is simply impossible for someone immersed in socialism/communism to relate to the idea of a free, unmanaged economy.

Mores the pity.
Free, unmanaged economy ultimately leads to high market concentration, mergers, monopoly pricing, barriers to entry, and similar goodies, unless, of course, my understanding of the economic theory and reality is fundamentally flawed.

The government's wise intervention must provide for a necessary balance.
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      05-13-2008, 03:57 PM   #39
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yes i was raised outside the US.. altho i grew up quite a few inches here
in any case, im not a socialist or a communist and i resent those labels and consider any discussion with their presence pretty useless. but a president does have a plan and does have an administration that manages it. u want to say president has nothing to do with the economy u'd be a crack-ist
Whether you resent being called something is unimportant to me. The US does not have a planned economy and the economy is not managed from Washington.

No one in Washington decides which companies will be profitable and which ones will not, who will be hired or fired, who will invest in what company, etc... It simply does not happen that way.

We do not publish 5 year plans or set industrial policy. The President and his administration can have real impact through tax, monetary, and regulatory policy but that is the extent of it.
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      05-13-2008, 04:04 PM   #40
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Free, unmanaged economy ultimately leads to high market concentration, mergers, monopoly pricing, barriers to entry, and similar goodies, unless, of course, my understanding of the economic theory and reality is fundamentally flawed.

The government's wise intervention must provide for a necessary balance.
I would go with your understanding is flawed, as would Hayek, Friedman, etc...
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      05-13-2008, 04:17 PM   #41
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So, no governmental regulation ... Dissolve the FTC, the Antitrust Division of the Dept. of Justice, and, of course, the SEC (free stock trading FTW!). Sounds like a good plan. Big brothers like Walmart, Kroger, and Microsoft will take good care of their mom and pop shop competitors. They just can't get enough of market competition on the merits.
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      05-13-2008, 04:35 PM   #42
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So, no governmental regulation ... Dissolve the FTC, the Antitrust Division of the Dept. of Justice, and, of course, the SEC (free stock trading FTW!). Sounds like a good plan. Big brothers like Walmart, Kroger, and Microsoft will take good care of their mom and pop shop competitors. They just can't get enough of market competition on the merits.
If those entities would confine themselves to enforcing prohibitions on the use of force, threat of force, and fraud then they are fine. The Antitrust division of DOJ being the exception, they have no legitimate purpose.
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      05-13-2008, 06:43 PM   #43
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The government's wise intervention must provide for a necessary balance.
Government's wise intervention? Haha that has to be an oxy moron or something... Just look at what the government did with social security. Government does not know how to function like a business.
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      05-13-2008, 07:10 PM   #44
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Government's wise intervention? Haha that has to be an oxy moron or something... Just look at what the government did with social security. Government does not know how to function like a business.
A pretty good Oxy Moron, huh? or something ...
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