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      05-13-2008, 02:29 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by AWD Addict View Post
Never has is NOT a fact. 500lbs of yellowcake stored after the 91 invasion wasn't being used for fireworks, I promise you that. The fact they were protecting that reserve, along with various new centrifuge design and engineering documents, all found shortly after we invaded, ought to tell you that there was plenty going on with Sadaam and WMDs.

How about the 100's of chemical payload rockets found that exceeded UN mandated ranges?

How about the antigen syringes found on Sadaam's personal police specifically to counter VX nerve gas?

How about the centrifuge tubes found?

If you're gullible enough to think Sadaam didn't want to have WMDs, and wasn't conspiring to get them, you're probably not qualified to speak on the subject. Hussein was a ruthless dictator, bent on destroying anything related to the West, or more simply, anything that differed from his own goals.
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/rls/18714.htm
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      05-13-2008, 09:38 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by AWD Addict View Post
Never has is NOT a fact. 500lbs of yellowcake stored after the 91 invasion wasn't being used for fireworks, I promise you that. The fact they were protecting that reserve, along with various new centrifuge design and engineering documents, all found shortly after we invaded, ought to tell you that there was plenty going on with Sadaam and WMDs.

How about the 100's of chemical payload rockets found that exceeded UN mandated ranges?

How about the antigen syringes found on Sadaam's personal police specifically to counter VX nerve gas?

How about the centrifuge tubes found?

If you're gullible enough to think Sadaam didn't want to have WMDs, and wasn't conspiring to get them, you're probably not qualified to speak on the subject. Hussein was a ruthless dictator, bent on destroying anything related to the West, or more simply, anything that differed from his own goals.
See underlined:
Actually -- isn't that who BUSH is??? Didn't he prove it to the whole world while Saddam actually did not have a chance to prove your claims against the West -- so those can only be myths or Gov't Propaganda... Bush openly said in one of his 6th grader speaches -- "You're either with me or with the Enemy" -- completely proves what you described above...

As for the "ruthless killer" speach -- we have heard it enough before the invasion and we all agreed tha he was far from an angel -- but to his OWN people -- he never hurt the US, or Britain, or Korea... He never (aparently also proven) did plan on doing things like that...
Unfortunately, there are many other "ruthless killers" out there, and some of them openly DID develop the nuke (NK) but we don't care because they don't have what we want...

As for the EMPTY rusty shells, and some VX gas and so on...that is a plain joke. THe amounts we found are probably in posession of 80% of the governments out there. The empty rusty shells are no evidence of any plans.

Our government lied, lied, lied. Collin Powel was ordered to show the power point slides of sure locations of the WMD factories that NEVER existed, or never were found. Do you really believe that it is possible to hide a WMD factory overnight with no traces. If you do, you need more reading to do... Then we lied about SH connection to Al Qaeda that was also proven as wrong... And so on.

What you put above is the old news, that do not justify 1% what we did to the Sovereign State that was no threat to us and without any UN approval. Someone should be responsible for that and for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis that would have been alive without Bush's little experiment, and for the lives of 4100 of our soldiers...
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      05-17-2008, 03:13 PM   #25
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Ganeil,

I applaud you for your belief in your viewpoints and your ability to stand up to criticism!

However, I have to question if your viewpoints exist in the real world or an idealized world. I can go to Iraq, call myself the Iraqi goverment, pass a whole lot of appropriations and laws and say that 'we' are doing our part. The unfortunate reality is that the Iraqi goverment is not respected or supported outside of the US created safe zone and exists and operates in that small piece of land only. Outside of that area Iraq is a locally governed country, that is why US soldiers are being deployed to new 'hot spots' all the time -- ie. the local people/decision makers have some problem with some issue and decide to cause a ruccus. We have not yet reached the stage where there is unified goverment in Iraq and where laws passed or funding and appropriations have any kind of meaning in the real world.

But those 'FACT's do sound good on a piece of paper as a political talking point. I, along with many, would actualy hope there was real substance to them 'on the ground' in Iraq. We simply are not yet to that stage yet.
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      05-18-2008, 02:48 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caudalM3 View Post
Ganeil,

I applaud you for your belief in your viewpoints and your ability to stand up to criticism!

However, I have to question if your viewpoints exist in the real world or an idealized world. I can go to Iraq, call myself the Iraqi goverment, pass a whole lot of appropriations and laws and say that 'we' are doing our part. The unfortunate reality is that the Iraqi goverment is not respected or supported outside of the US created safe zone and exists and operates in that small piece of land only. Outside of that area Iraq is a locally governed country, that is why US soldiers are being deployed to new 'hot spots' all the time -- ie. the local people/decision makers have some problem with some issue and decide to cause a ruccus. We have not yet reached the stage where there is unified goverment in Iraq and where laws passed or funding and appropriations have any kind of meaning in the real world.

But those 'FACT's do sound good on a piece of paper as a political talking point. I, along with many, would actualy hope there was real substance to them 'on the ground' in Iraq. We simply are not yet to that stage yet.
Where are you getting these impressions? The Iraqi government operates over vast ares of the country where there are currently no US troops. They recently launched an offensive to gain control of Basra, Iraq's second largest city. That effort has been generally successful with minimum US involvement.

What is currently evolving in Iraq is much different than what existed there before. It is a bottom up approach to governing that leaves quite a bit of power at the local level and only what is needed at the national level. I happen to believe that is a good thing.
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      05-19-2008, 12:47 AM   #27
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I'm no expert on this war or on politics itself but after watching the documentary "NO END IN SIGHT" which everybody should watch. I come to realized that we fucked up big time in post iraq and our policy implemented after arriving in iraq. It's great that progress is coming about. However, it could have happen a lot sooner if we had a plan in place for post iraq and those who were in charge had more military and war experience to direct the course of action. With all the distrust in our govt lately it is hard for people to see through the lies and what little truth exist is badly tarnished that no one will believe it anymore.
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      05-22-2008, 11:14 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
1. MYTH: The American people are footing the bill for Iraq’s security and reconstruction while Iraqis sit on large windfall oil profits.

FACT: The Iraqi government is taking over the funding of reconstruction. In 2008, Iraq’s budget for large-scale reconstruction projects exceeds that proposed by the U.S. by more than 10 to 1, and the U.S. military expects that Iraq will soon cover 100 percent of such expenses.

FACT: Iraq's security ministries are now spending more on their security forces than the U.S., and Iraq’s 2008 budget provides for more than 75% of the total annual cost for Iraq’s military and police.

FACT: The government of Iraq has committed to footing approximately half the bill for the “Sons of Iraq” community watch program—which was originally 100% U.S.-funded.

FACT: Iraq’s Ambassador to the U.S., Samir Sumaida'ie, says that Iraq still has to import gasoline, and argues that “some people are going a little bit too far looking at the Iraqi surplus and the gigantic American deficit and putting two and two together … The windfall from the oil will not cover a fraction of what we need to provide clean water, electricity and the most rudimentary services for our people.”

2. MYTH: “It's no big deal” if Congress fails to pass a war supplemental bill by Memorial Day.

FACT: According to Admiral Michael Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff: “We need [the supplemental appropriations bill] very badly before the Memorial Day recess. We stop paying soldiers on the 15th of June and we have precious little flexibility with respect to that … Clearly that creates incredible constraints and difficulties for us.”

3. MYTH: The Iraqi government has not taken advantage of reduced violence by making political progress.

FACT: Since September 2007, Iraq's parliament has passed significant legislation dealing with reconciliation and nation building, including:

o A pension law

o De-Ba’athification reform

o An amnesty law

o A provincial powers law

o Changes to the design of the Iraqi flag to remove Saddam-era additions

o A 2008 budget that includes record amounts for capital and security expenditures

FACT: Recently passed legislation is already having an effect. For example, the amnesty law passed in February has already led to the release of Iraqis who were under detention for non-serious crimes.

FACT: The national government is sharing oil revenues with provinces despite the lack of a framework hydrocarbons and revenue-sharing law.

4. MYTH: The U.S. is negotiating a back-door treaty with Iraq’s government that will tie the hands of future Presidents.

FACT: The United Nations authorization under which U.S. military and civilian personnel in Iraq are legally serving will expire on December 31, 2008. U.S. and Iraqi officials are therefore seeking a “strategic framework” that would provide legal protections and establish a long-term relationship between the two countries after that date.

FACT: In 2007, Iraq’s leaders asked the U.S. to move to a more normalized bilateral relationship, instead of the special case managed by the U.N.

FACT: The framework U.S. and Iraqi officials are now discussing would in no way limit or affect the military and diplomatic options the next President will have under the U.S. Constitution.

FACT: Any strategic framework would be similar to the agreement the U.S. now has with Afghanistan and much like the conventional peacetime agreements the U.S. has with dozens of other countries.

FACT: It is unclear what would happen to more than 20,000 detainees now under U.S. custody if the U.N. authorization expired on December 31 with no strategic framework in place.

FACT: The United States does not seek and will not seek permanent bases in Iraq, and any framework would affirm this principle.

5. MYTH: Iraqis are not defending their country.

FACT: As General David Petraeus testified in April, Iraqis are increasingly in the fight, recently incurring losses three times the level of Coalition losses.

FACT: Iraqi soldiers, police, and volunteers are securing their nation in increasing numbers. According to General Petraeus, more than 540,000 individuals serve in Iraq’s Security Forces, with more than 133,000 soldiers and police added over the past 16 months.

FACT: The military reports that there are now more than 91,000 Sons of Iraq—Shia as well as Sunni—under contract to help Coalition and Iraqi Forces protect neighborhoods and secure infrastructure.

FACT: More than 21,000 Sons of Iraq have already been accepted into Police, Army, or government jobs.

6. MYTH: Current spending on the war is historically unprecedented.

FACT: Today’s U.S. defense budget accounts for just over four percent of the economy, less than the U.S. commitment at any point during the four decades of the Cold War.

FACT: During the Truman and Eisenhower Administrations, the U.S. defense budget rose as high as 13 percent of the total economy.

FACT: Even during the Reagan Administration, when the economy expanded significantly, the defense budget accounted for approximately six percent of GDP.

Source: A Soldier's Perspective

Great Ganeil...another blockbuster for you I see...
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      05-24-2008, 11:09 AM   #29
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Since the other post with this link was deleted, here is another perspective from a "conservative" commentator. Looks like the Right is not as unified as one might think.
Pat Buchanan's take:
http://www.amconmag.com/03_24_03/cover.html

The Appeaser/Neville Chamberlin reference was originally used by Sharon against Bush 7 years ago....interesting how we've come full circle on that (in a truly twisted way).

Last edited by fedinand; 05-24-2008 at 11:46 AM.
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      05-28-2008, 06:17 AM   #30
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From the ex-press secretary's own book - Bush misled us:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24848910
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      05-28-2008, 06:27 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fedinand View Post
From the ex-press secretary's own book - Bush misled us:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24848910
The truth is coming out from all sides...
Too bad there is no time to impeach the LIAR and murderer
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      05-28-2008, 10:35 PM   #32
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Quote:
The truth is coming out from all sides...
Too bad there is no time to impeach the LIAR and murderer
Check out the Buchanan link - its hard, but when you get over the fact its Buchanan, there is a lot of "interesting" information from that piece....its a few years old, but very timely now.
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      05-28-2008, 10:47 PM   #33
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Since Iraq is under U.S. control.......

People of Iraq should be allowed to vote who the next U.S. president should be.........
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      05-29-2008, 11:53 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Where are you getting these impressions? The Iraqi government operates over vast ares of the country where there are currently no US troops. They recently launched an offensive to gain control of Basra, Iraq's second largest city. That effort has been generally successful with minimum US involvement.

What is currently evolving in Iraq is much different than what existed there before. It is a bottom up approach to governing that leaves quite a bit of power at the local level and only what is needed at the national level. I happen to believe that is a good thing.
I'm going to have to disagree with the first paragraph. Iraq is still run by local militias and the Iraqi Army, until recently, only had a strong presence in the Baghdad area. The Sunni Triangle is still run by local Sunni tribes who run their Awakening Councils to maintain security and fight off Al-Qaeda in Iraq. US forces have a strong presence in the area and the Iraqi army still have little to no presence.
The Kurdish north is run by the Iraqi Kurdistan Government, which the Iraqi government in Baghdad has little say over.
You also mention Basra, which if it wasn't for Muqtada al-Sadr (and aparently Iran), the Iraqi Army and al-Sadr's militia could still be fighting for the city. al-Sadr has a much greater influence over the people in the city than the Iraqi government does in Basra. and the Iraqi army would have gotten no where without US and British airstrikes.

my sources? read the news, and not just from one side. You could pretty much get the whole picture by reading on the same topic from both sides.
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      05-29-2008, 01:50 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noire07 View Post
I'm going to have to disagree with the first paragraph. Iraq is still run by local militias and the Iraqi Army, until recently, only had a strong presence in the Baghdad area. The Sunni Triangle is still run by local Sunni tribes who run their Awakening Councils to maintain security and fight off Al-Qaeda in Iraq. US forces have a strong presence in the area and the Iraqi army still have little to no presence.
The Kurdish north is run by the Iraqi Kurdistan Government, which the Iraqi government in Baghdad has little say over.
You also mention Basra, which if it wasn't for Muqtada al-Sadr (and aparently Iran), the Iraqi Army and al-Sadr's militia could still be fighting for the city. al-Sadr has a much greater influence over the people in the city than the Iraqi government does in Basra. and the Iraqi army would have gotten no where without US and British airstrikes.

my sources? read the news, and not just from one side. You could pretty much get the whole picture by reading on the same topic from both sides.
I do not know when you were last in Iraq but your assessment does not correspond to what I saw there a couple of months ago.
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      05-29-2008, 02:32 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
I do not know when you were last in Iraq but your assessment does not correspond to what I saw there a couple of months ago.
Noire07:
You need to realize that Ganeil has visited every corner and every area of Iraq while over there "a few months ago"... He went to a sightseeing mission.

Also, you have to realize that only FOX news speak truth for him glorifying the dictator in the WH and the rest of the WORLD media is purely manipulated and wrong...

Majority of Iraqi population loves to be occupied and loves us over there...according to our tour guide Ganeil...
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      05-29-2008, 02:37 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
Noire07:
You need to realize that Ganeil has visited every corner and every area of Iraq while over there "a few months ago"... He went to a sightseeing mission.

Also, you have to realize that only FOX news speak truth for him glorifying the dictator in the WH and the rest of the WORLD media is purely manipulated and wrong...

Majority of Iraqi population loves to be occupied and loves us over there...according to our tour guide Ganeil...
..and the fact that he profits from the war as a contractor colors his perspective in no way...
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      05-29-2008, 02:48 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by fedinand View Post
..and the fact that he profits from the war as a contractor colors his perspective in no way...
I didn't know he was a contractor -- he presented himself as a hero and a vet... As the brigade leader or some crap like that. WOW...

If true, I will have to ignore his Iraq comments from here on...
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      05-29-2008, 03:37 PM   #39
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..and the fact that he profits from the war as a contractor colors his perspective in no way...
..Interesting..

..US Army, Commissioned, 5 years and going.. i will admit, he was been there more recently than I have, but i'm going to just stop right here. I just realized theres no point in arguing anymore.
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      05-29-2008, 03:50 PM   #40
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Dude, thanks for your service, seriously.

Wait for him to dismiss your perspective as not being objective, as it doesn't fit his partisan view.
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      05-29-2008, 10:34 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noire07 View Post
..Interesting..

..US Army, Commissioned, 5 years and going.. i will admit, he was been there more recently than I have, but i'm going to just stop right here. I just realized theres no point in arguing anymore.
I wonder what you find interesting?

The suggestion that I support the war effort because I profit from it?

I disagree with your assessment because it does not comport with what I saw on the ground. The Iraq Security Forces have made great strides and they have a presence that extends far beyond the capital. I believe the operations in Basra were a watershed event in the government asserting control. Taking on the JAM was important not only because controlling the second largest city in the country is necessary for the legitimacy of the government but also because of the message it sent to the Sunni.

US Army, Commissioned, retired 5 years and counting.
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Last edited by ganeil; 05-29-2008 at 11:04 PM.
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      06-04-2008, 05:12 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
I
Evaluate the info on the merits not on the source.
Now, that is a modern classic of political rhetoric! I'll have it framed.
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      06-04-2008, 06:56 PM   #43
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Now, that is a modern classic of political rhetoric! I'll have it framed.
Have you never taken a class in logic? If you had you would understand that the validity of a claim does not follow from the credibility of the source.
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      06-05-2008, 10:39 AM   #44
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Have you never taken a class in logic? If you had you would understand that the validity of a claim does not follow from the credibility of the source.
You can play with logic in abstract terms as long as it pleases you, but in a political context a tainted source will likely produce tainted information. Moreover, if you have no way to verify the accuracy of the information other than relying on its the source, the credibility, reliability, and general reputation of that source becomes paramount. It's kinda similar to admissibility of scientific evidence.
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