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      05-08-2008, 08:52 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I have also been using a lot more of S4 vs S3 since that statement because S4 and S5 give substantially better downshift blips than S3 and lower.
I've noticed this as well, but I'm leaning to the conclusion that the throttle blips in S4 and S5 are larger than necessary for effect. I mentioned this in my initial post 2 1/2 weeks ago, and the more I play around with it, the more convinced I am.

For example, in S3, coming up to a corner in 3rd, then shifting to 2nd, it rev-matches seamlessly. Try this in S4 or S5 and you get an overaggressive blip, causing revs to spike higher than what is needed for a perfect match. This in turn causes a slight surge under braking as the car dumps the excess rpms. At least, this is my impression of what's going on.
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      05-08-2008, 10:21 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by mattwhite View Post
I've noticed this as well, but I'm leaning to the conclusion that the throttle blips in S4 and S5 are larger than necessary for effect. I mentioned this in my initial post 2 1/2 weeks ago, and the more I play around with it, the more convinced I am.

For example, in S3, coming up to a corner in 3rd, then shifting to 2nd, it rev-matches seamlessly. Try this in S4 or S5 and you get an overaggressive blip, causing revs to spike higher than what is needed for a perfect match. This in turn causes a slight surge under braking as the car dumps the excess rpms. At least, this is my impression of what's going on.
I'm telling you, old footie isn't too often wrong when it comes to the fine points of dual clutch technology.

I said it before and I will say it again, this was engineered in the make a noticeable link to the old SMG and it serves no other purpose or benefit. Also the engineers at VAG have been working on this technology for years and I reckon if there was a need for a surge then they would have had.

Anyway mattwhite, thanks for reaffirming what I already knew.
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      05-08-2008, 10:44 AM   #69
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Swampy,

I apologize for not chiming in earlier but I have been busy my self and didn't see your post till just now. Where are the freaking pictures, man? Sir Epacy sure has gone soft since his delivery and lets you get away with all these lame excuses? This is Thee Mr Swamp's ride no less, give me a break? What has this forum came to, a bunch of softies now that they have been given their carrots?

You talked about Geneva as a long wait and a long time ago. Come on, We have been niggling about this car long before Geneva. How about all the camo spy shot crap and trying to guess what that final red line number was going to be. Remember the talk about the red line being reduced to a lowly 8400 due to reliability problems. We were not happy campers that week.

Fiance? You have had some serious stress the last year. You both deserve a vacation, a very long vacation. Her probably more than you.

In all seriousness, I share your excitement about your car and your imminent nuptials. Extremely important year for you. I really appreciated your support and as everyone has already said, we appreciate your as always thorough and very educational review. Now get er done with the pics already.
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      05-08-2008, 01:08 PM   #70
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Swampy,

I apologize for not chiming in earlier but I have been busy my self and didn't see your post till just now. Where are the freaking pictures, man? Sir Epacy sure has gone soft since his delivery and lets you get away with all these lame excuses? This is Thee Mr Swamp's ride no less, give me a break? What has this forum came to, a bunch of softies now that they have been given their carrots?

You talked about Geneva as a long wait and a long time ago. Come on, We have been niggling about this car long before Geneva. How about all the camo spy shot crap and trying to guess what that final red line number was going to be. Remember the talk about the red line being reduced to a lowly 8400 due to reliability problems. We were not happy campers that week.

Fiance? You have had some serious stress the last year. You both deserve a vacation, a very long vacation. Her probably more than you.

In all seriousness, I share your excitement about your car and your imminent nuptials. Extremely important year for you. I really appreciated your support and as everyone has already said, we appreciate your as always thorough and very educational review. Now get er done with the pics already.
Thanks a lot ruff. I certainly remember the good old days

Obviously I don't understand the desire for pics of each and every M as much as many. Just got clear bra-ed yesterday and now have the recommend 5 days until the next wash. I am dirty rear and clean front presently. I may break that wash "rule" for some LC vids on the weekend...
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      05-08-2008, 01:14 PM   #71
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... I may break that wash "rule" for some LC vids on the weekend...
How bad can washing just the back end be, as long as you don't get the front wet?

LC as in Launch Control? So, you're past break-in then? If so, then I'm really looking forward to that.
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      05-08-2008, 04:59 PM   #72
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Tch, tch. It is the other way around my fellow friend.
I was locked in on IB, but you steered me towards PS.
Yeah, that's style.

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Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
Either way, I am jumping on the EPACY/SOUTH bandwagon. I have no pride, so I don't care about the one to take the chance on color. You went out on the limb, and I benefit because I get to see what it looks like before I had to lock in my color choice. THANKS!!!!
Cool, one more until I'll start the IBonPS club!


Best regards, south

PS: Sorry for OT, swamp.
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      05-09-2008, 03:28 AM   #73
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I'm telling you, old footie isn't too often wrong when it comes to the fine points of dual clutch technology.
I would not go that far.

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Originally Posted by footie View Post
I said it before and I will say it again, this was engineered in the make a noticeable link to the old SMG and it serves no other purpose or benefit. Also the engineers at VAG have been working on this technology for years and I reckon if there was a need for a surge then they would have had.

Anyway mattwhite, thanks for reaffirming what I already knew.
IIRC you have been saying this to date exclusively about the surge, now you are using the exact same line about the amount of throttle used to rev match? Or are you still just patting yourself on the back ASSUMING you are correct about an UNVERIFIABLE contention?

Matt and footie: I have not decided if the rev matching is excessive in S3-S6. Sometimes it seems like it may be (exactly as you described Matt) but I also think these modes are designed for principal use at the high end of the rpm range (where I personally am not yet exploring).

Footie: Why are you so insistent that BMW is doing so many things for image and not for substantive purpose and gain? It is very against M principles, past designs, overall goals, etc., everything to make all of there features only about feel, sound or a link to old technology. Your belief that Audi knows better and knows everything is a bit fanboy-ish. Remember that the brains behind both DSG and DCT is Borg Warner (and Getrag in BMWs case). It is not clear how much software is done in house by OEMs and how much is done by Borg/Getrag.

Last edited by swamp2; 05-09-2008 at 12:25 PM.
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      05-09-2008, 08:08 AM   #74
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Maybe this is not the best place to voice this as I don't want to turn Swamp's new car thread into a DCT debate, but Larry Koch did say that DCT was so smooth that they had to "build-in" some effects. I did not have the chance to follow up on what he meant by that exactly, and I guess that is open to speculation.
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      05-09-2008, 08:26 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Quote:
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I'm telling you, old footie isn't too often wrong when it comes to the fine points of dual clutch technology.
I would not go that far.
That was a tongue in cheek comments which I reckon most would have took as a joke...............clearly not all of you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
IIRC you have been saying this to date exclusively about the surge, now you are using the exact same line about the amount of throttle used to rev match? Or are you still just patting yourself on the back ASSUMING you are correct about an UNVERIFIABLE contention?
Just because it can't be verified does not make my statement any less true. The problem is that BMW are so wanting to give their DCT a sportier feel than any other, so much so that adding the surge wasn't enough they felt they needed to alter the blip on down-shifts as well...........why, what purpose can it serve. Think about it, you want down-shift to be an seamless as possible because you are also braking and want nothing to upset the balance of the car at such situations, so why change which was perfect up to S3. You might want to alter where the down-shift occurs but not the manner of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Footie: Why are you so insistent that BMW is doing so many things for image and not for substantive purpose and gain? It is very against M principles, past designs, overall goals, etc., everything to make all of there features only about feel, sound or a link to old technology. Your belief that Audi knows better and knows everything is a bit fanboy-ish. Remember that the brains behind both DSG and DCT is Borg Warner (and Getrag in BMWs case). It is not clear how much software is done in house by OEMs and how much is done by Borg/Getrag.
swamp, sorry if I am coming across as an Audi/VAG fanboy, that was not my intent but I give credit where credit is due and what Audi engineers did with DSG with regards to the shift patterns both up and down were spot on. There is no need or benefit in a surge, either in up-shift or down, it's my sole complaint with the BMW system which can't be said for the DSG which had many faults, changing up a gear when the limiter was reached and not having a creep mode to name but two.

I also think you are not giving both Audi and BMW enough credit in the development of both systems, thinking that it was mostly the work of Borg Warner and Getrag. Look and the DSG, M-DCT and finally the EVO X and GTR systems which names escapes me, all of them behave differently yet all are following the same basic design, why because they are co-developed by the manufacturer to their spec. There is not a single thing on any car which hasn't be approved by the manufacturer to meet their requirements.........that is a fact.
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      05-09-2008, 09:17 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Maybe this is not the best place to voice this as I don't want to turn Swamp's new car thread into a DCT debate, but Larry Koch did say that DCT was so smooth that they had to "build-in" some effects. I did not have the chance to follow up on what he meant by that exactly, and I guess that is open to speculation.
Lucid,

What else could it be, after all it's the only noticeable difference between DSG, EVO & GTR systems and that of the BMW DCT. Dual clutch is be design ultra smooth and that was after the forefront of it's development, to not upset the balance of the car which a manual does.

It's nice to see that my comments are finally proving to be right, even though I knew it all this time.

P.S.

Sorry for turning this into one of those thread debates.
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      05-09-2008, 09:33 AM   #77
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      05-09-2008, 10:22 AM   #78
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      05-09-2008, 10:25 AM   #79
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Quote:
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Lucid,

What else could it be, after all it's the only noticeable difference between DSG, EVO & GTR systems and that of the BMW DCT. Dual clutch is be design ultra smooth and that was after the forefront of it's development, to not upset the balance of the car which a manual does.

It's nice to see that my comments are finally proving to be right, even though I knew it all this time.

P.S.

Sorry for turning this into one of those thread debates.
Based on Larry Koch's comment, and the reports in the media, it is clear they built something into it, but it is not clear what exactly. It might not have any bearing on clutch engagement or performance (who knows, maybe the throttle is modulated differently). I realize you guys are engaged in a debate over this, but I don't know that it is a big deal.
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      05-09-2008, 12:10 PM   #80
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swamp, do you find that there is a "learning curve" to this transmission as the first reviews have claimed? Is it smooth under all circumstances or just some, and is it up to the driver to learn how to get the most out of it (performance and smoothness) or can you just stomp on it and go, as well as brake and stop smoothly? Just wondering how it could compare to the ease of use of a slushbox, or the learning curve of a manual. Sorry for the long run-on...
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      05-09-2008, 12:15 PM   #81
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There's not much of a learning curve to drive M-DCT smoothly. However, there is a lot of subtle things that I'm still learning each time I drive it. It's actually easier to drive my M-DCT M3 smoothly than my X5 due to the "logic" built into the X5's automatic transmission (which prefers to be driven with a heavy foot). The M3, of course, can be driven aggressively easily as well.
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      05-09-2008, 12:21 PM   #82
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There's not much of a learning curve to drive M-DCT smoothly. However, there is a lot of subtle things that I'm still learning each time I drive it. It's actually easier to try my M-DCT M3 smoothly than my X5 due to the "logic" built into the X5's automatic transmission (which prefers to be driven with a heavy foot). The M3, of course, can be driven aggressively easily as well.
We are learning a lot about this new transmission thanks to you guys....
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      05-09-2008, 12:27 PM   #83
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Def. no big learning curve. I didnt even look at the manual and just hopped in...if you know how to drive a auto then M-DCT is cake. S mode might be harder for some people, but if you drove steptronic before then its basically the same thing.
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      05-09-2008, 12:33 PM   #84
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That was a tongue in cheek comments which I reckon most would have took as a joke...............clearly not all of you.



Just because it can't be verified does not make my statement any less true. The problem is that BMW are so wanting to give their DCT a sportier feel than any other, so much so that adding the surge wasn't enough they felt they needed to alter the blip on down-shifts as well...........why, what purpose can it serve. Think about it, you want down-shift to be an seamless as possible because you are also braking and want nothing to upset the balance of the car at such situations, so why change which was perfect up to S3. You might want to alter where the down-shift occurs but not the manner of it.



swamp, sorry if I am coming across as an Audi/VAG fanboy, that was not my intent but I give credit where credit is due and what Audi engineers did with DSG with regards to the shift patterns both up and down were spot on. There is no need or benefit in a surge, either in up-shift or down, it's my sole complaint with the BMW system which can't be said for the DSG which had many faults, changing up a gear when the limiter was reached and not having a creep mode to name but two.

I also think you are not giving both Audi and BMW enough credit in the development of both systems, thinking that it was mostly the work of Borg Warner and Getrag. Look and the DSG, M-DCT and finally the EVO X and GTR systems which names escapes me, all of them behave differently yet all are following the same basic design, why because they are co-developed by the manufacturer to their spec. There is not a single thing on any car which hasn't be approved by the manufacturer to meet their requirements.........that is a fact.
Can't be verified means POINTLESS - you will never know you are right or wrong, yet you keep patting yourself on the back and claiming victory and claiming you are correct. Very much like a politician and that is not a compliment. We should stick to what the unit does and why rather than design intent.

Although I agree with you about the purpose and what a downshift should be I have not made up my mind about any excess in S4-S6 downshifts. I suspect they will appear much more applicable for track use.

You have not driven the GT-R nor Evo and the reports of the two we all have access to do not provide enough detail about their transmissions to make fair comparisons to M-DCT. I have said that once and will keep saying it until you acknowledge it.

Lastly you should qualify "no" benefit as I have to mean possible but likely little measureable benefit. Acceleration is acceleration whether instantaneous (jerk) or continuous (jerk=0) and it all helps. You refuse to acknowledge this.
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      05-09-2008, 12:34 PM   #85
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Def. no big learning curve. I didnt even look at the manual and just hopped in...if you know how to drive a auto then M-DCT is cake. S mode might be harder for some people, but if you drove steptronic before then its basically the same thing.
yep, story of an automatic's car's life. just sit there, floor either of the pedals and you're "driving"
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      05-09-2008, 12:37 PM   #86
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swamp, do you find that there is a "learning curve" to this transmission as the first reviews have claimed? Is it smooth under all circumstances or just some, and is it up to the driver to learn how to get the most out of it (performance and smoothness) or can you just stomp on it and go, as well as brake and stop smoothly? Just wondering how it could compare to the ease of use of a slushbox, or the learning curve of a manual. Sorry for the long run-on...
I agree with the others. There is virtually no learning curve.

-The biggest problem is over-reving if you are trying to adhere to a break in rpm limit.
-Aggressive take off also does require just a touch of technique to make it perfect.
-Some other simple things inevitably come up like switching to the lever for 1->2 instead of the paddles when you have poor access to the paddles under very sharp turning.

In for 1200 mi service right now.
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      05-09-2008, 01:50 PM   #87
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...
-Some other simple things inevitably come up like switching to the lever for 1->2 instead of the paddles when you have poor access to the paddles under very sharp turning.

In for 1200 mi service right now.
I find it interesting that you point this out. I found that reaching for the shift lever as opposed to the paddles during a turn came very naturally. But then, I've been driving manual shift cars since the '70s. Thanks for all the great information guys.

Good luck. You can finally start to drive it the way it was meant to be. But take it up gradually to redline. For example, keep it under 6000 rpm until 1500 miles. Then keep it under 6500 until 1800 miles. And so on. By the time you get to 3000 miles you can start to rev it to redline and the fun really starts.
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      05-09-2008, 02:14 PM   #88
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I agree with the others. There is virtually no learning curve.

-The biggest problem is over-reving if you are trying to adhere to a break in rpm limit.
-Aggressive take off also does require just a touch of technique to make it perfect.
-Some other simple things inevitably come up like switching to the lever for 1->2 instead of the paddles when you have poor access to the paddles under very sharp turning.
+1. perfect descriptions of my experience as well.
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