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      05-06-2008, 06:29 AM   #23
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2010! that a bunch of horse manure.... I've been looking into it too, I can put a deposit now and can have a 2009 model by Sept 08. These CA will always say we only have one allotment left to make folks feel the urgency to a deposit down
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      05-06-2008, 09:00 AM   #24
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No free maintainence is a killer on MBs.
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      05-18-2008, 01:31 PM   #25
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For the hell of it I searched Autotrader.

19 C63's listed for sale nationwide (US)

863 M3's listed for sale nationwide.

Even considering BMW dealers are probably more net savvy since their customers are also (and would list/search Autotrader for a car) ... That's nuts.
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      05-19-2008, 01:32 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Ryan(e92) View Post
The only other bummer was that even if you drive up in a brand new M3, the sales team isn't anxious to talk to you... We actually had to approach them to ask them if they had the car there...


haters[/quote]

They probably figure this guy just bought a e92 m3, what are the chances he's going to trade a better car for something worse. These people just want a free thrashing of the C63.
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      05-19-2008, 03:11 PM   #27
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      05-19-2008, 11:33 PM   #28
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Sounds like BS on the MY2010 availability.

After waiting two months already for an M3 and still only on the order bank, decided on Friday to bail to a C63.

When testing the market: First call was able to yield a perfectly-equipped car in the next state. Will be taking delivery in a week. Next, I dropped by my local dealer to see if they had any in stock to view (they just delivered one the prior day and have another one coming next week which is not spoken for yet, plus several other builds still unaccounted for), the next dealer I contacted was offering up a 2009 build for Sept. '08 Delivery. My last call was to largest M-B Dealer East of the Mississippi...have 1 in stock ready for immediate delivery and several more coming next week. I would say this is a pretty good indication that M-B will make as many as they can sell (i.e no reason to wait until MY2010).

BTW...my local BMW dealers have been sitting on the same 3-4 M3s per dealership for easily 2 months+ already. They aren't moving at all! Perhaps fallout from the weak economy, or more likely the premium pricing of these cars (i.e. too close to the next higher class of cars of the same brand). Though the 550i and E550 are different segments, one still has to look at what you are getting for your money when real world lifestyles come into play (kids, cargo capacity, passenger comfort, gas prices, etc.)

BTW...I am kind of sad to be bailing on the M3 after looking forward to getting one for the last few years. I just don't like waiting 4 months for nearly sticker pricing. Another factor that bolstered my decision was some nagging concern about the M3's torque. I am still haunted by how I could not put some serious distance between the M3 I was driving and a Nissan Altima that was following me while doing a few 50-80 blasts on the highway during the test drive. Conclusion: the M3 is quick from a stop, handles like a SOB, probably great on a track, but is not THAT impressive when flooring it at speed (i.e. real world driving).

I suspect others will eventually come to the same conclusion when they try the same real world test. Perhaps the old adage is true: There is no substitue for cubic inches.

Regarding the economics, the C63 (similarly equipped) is about $8,000 less than the M3 I have on order, which equates to approximately $270 less per month in the lease payment versus the M3. I have to say: the C63 is a relatively good value.

The last thing that I was bummed out by is that even though all 3 cars that I considered (M3, C63, RS4) are good cars, they are all lacking in one way or another. (RS4 - No Dual Clutch offering, dated interior, & kind of lacking low-end torque, M3 - Expensive and a bit lacking in low-end torque, C63 - no LSD and kind of F-ugly). I know, I know...I am a bit of a perfectionist and expect the same of my cars.

The one thing that I will miss though is the choice of after-market exhaust systems that are already available for the M3.

Good luck to all you more patient souls.

Last edited by mcorliss; 05-20-2008 at 12:08 AM.
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      05-19-2008, 11:57 PM   #29
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Wow...that is SO weird! The specific C63 my dealer is obtaining from another dealer shows the gas guzzler tax as being only $2,100 (on the print out from the NetStar Mercedes Locator system) versus $2,600 on someone else's sticker.

Is it possible that there are different gas guzzler charges depending on when the car entered the country?
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      05-20-2008, 06:35 AM   #30
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I too felt your sentiments and was about to pull the trigger on the c63, it has the elegance and the power that is superior to the others in the same class. The reason it went the e92 way are the ff:

1. 4/50 mile warranty/service maintenance favored the M3

2. $1300 gas guzzler tax for the BM vs $2600 for the AMG

3. The fun factor is on M3 side. M3 overall is a full package car since, the AMG has the power but not handling. Merc doesnt come in 6MT

4. I've research AMG pass resale and its not very promising, do you homework at Autotrader for a 2 yr old car. BMW age well, I look at older MB I cant tell much about them. I look at any BMW I can relate to them.

5. Merc is more expensive to maintain after warranty expire hereby explains the worst resale vs BMW

6. BMW has more after-markets and never boring to fix up after having it awhile. The BMW clubs and forums are more dynamic and fun, and more DIYs

7. The M3 is easier to sell since its name is more sought after within the wider range of demographics. Better depreciation than the other.

8. Dont feel good after paying for a $67k car, I still have to fork for service every 10k at $4-500 a pop, we're not even talking brake jobs within the first 50k miles.

9. AMG c63 has a little worse gas mileage than the M3, I'll pick the lesser of the two evils

but I still think of the c63 AMG at times, but not as much as before. Im very much pleased with the M3 after I review these things I brought up. Its what I've owned and very familiar with an M. Why change when you are on the winning side.

Finally the M3 e92 looks much sharper and has alot better presence than the other

Last edited by ase2dais; 05-20-2008 at 07:16 AM.
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      05-20-2008, 10:21 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Laszlo View Post
BMW blew it with the e9X M3, IMO. Although, it out performs the e46 M3, it is by no means close to the refinement and passion that oozed from that generation. The new M is an epic fail... a short sighted half-baked product. A summer movie flop. The C63 is, unfortunately, a masterpiece. It's a proper car that is both menacing and elegant. It won...
Another point of view is that the latest M3 pretty much follows a specific pattern set by the previous three generations. It's pretty much a better overall car than its predecessor, with more performance and more refinement at the same time, but its bigger and heavier, and thus less responsive and "tossable" at the driver's whim.

However, from my point of view, this model is actually scores a litlle higher on the fun-to-drive scoreboard than the E46, even though it's less tossable, because it has more mid-range torque, and because it makes intoxicating noises, while the E46 made this tinny rasping sound, unbecoming to a proper BMW.

Yeah, it has that low-rpm softness, but it's easy to drive around that, and the rewards are plentiful when you do. I even like the often-criticized steering, although I like the 1 series steering even better.

Bruce

PS - Yeah, around my way, they don't seem to be leaping off the lots either, while the Lexus and Merc dealers can't seem to get one of the good ones in before it's already sold.
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      05-20-2008, 10:27 AM   #32
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Fair Points, indeed.

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Originally Posted by ase2dais View Post
I too felt your sentiments and was about to pull the trigger on the c63, it has the elegance and the power that is superior to the others in the same class. The reason it went the e92 way are the ff:

1. 4/50 mile warranty/service maintenance favored the M3

2. $1300 gas guzzler tax for the BM vs $2600 for the AMG

3. The fun factor is on M3 side. M3 overall is a full package car since, the AMG has the power but not handling. Merc doesnt come in 6MT

4. I've research AMG pass resale and its not very promising, do you homework at Autotrader for a 2 yr old car. BMW age well, I look at older MB I cant tell much about them. I look at any BMW I can relate to them.

5. Merc is more expensive to maintain after warranty expire hereby explains the worst resale vs BMW

6. BMW has more after-markets and never boring to fix up after having it awhile. The BMW clubs and forums are more dynamic and fun, and more DIYs

7. The M3 is easier to sell since its name is more sought after within the wider range of demographics. Better depreciation than the other.

8. Dont feel good after paying for a $67k car, I still have to fork for service every 10k at $4-500 a pop, we're not even talking brake jobs within the first 50k miles.

9. AMG c63 has a little worse gas mileage than the M3, I'll pick the lesser of the two evils

but I still think of the c63 AMG at times, but not as much as before. Im very much pleased with the M3 after I review these things I brought up. Its what I've owned and very familiar with an M. Why change when you are on the winning side.

Finally the M3 e92 looks much sharper and has alot better presence than the other

The aforementioned are all fair points. I am still a little torn up about not waiting for the M3. It is the prettier car, but the realities of real world driving, lack of wait, and $8K lower purchase price have swayed me just enough to make the jump to the C63, and I normally HATE regular Mercedes products.

If I had a choice of taking delivery of both cars on the same day, I would probably eat the extra $8k and go with the M3...it is that close, and that is how much I prefer BMWs.

However, I think BMW royally F'ed up the launch of the M3. They produced a bunch of less than desirable launch cars (dead color combos & no DCT) and have made customers wait way too long for delivery of the cars they really want...and are paying sticker for mind you.

Last point, they should have put the DCT in the M3 Sedan from the get go and delayed the M3 Convert until next spring or January. Damn Shame!!!

Last edited by mcorliss; 05-20-2008 at 11:26 PM.
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      05-20-2008, 12:33 PM   #33
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"I am still haunted by how I could not put some serious distance between the M3 I was driving and a Nissan Altima that was following me while doing a few 50-80 blasts on the highway during the test drive"

Maybe he isn't stupid enough to do 100-120 to overtake you on a highway? I can't believe you actually pin this as a reason.
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      05-20-2008, 04:02 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by ihyln View Post
"I am still haunted by how I could not put some serious distance between the M3 I was driving and a Nissan Altima that was following me while doing a few 50-80 blasts on the highway during the test drive"

Maybe he isn't stupid enough to do 100-120 to overtake you on a highway? I can't believe you actually pin this as a reason.
Clearly he didn't go to redline, and if he doesn't want to go to redline, what's the point of getting a M3? People who like low-end torque monsters and like to shift at 4-5k rpm or less (or have the car do it) really don't belong in a M3. This is not a unique viewpoint, people who complain about "daily driver usability" in the M3 (which clearly has significantly more power than needed for any daily driver tasks) are people who care most about how the car feels under 3-4k rpm. They are missing the point of a high RPM engine and frankly would be happier with another car engineered for their tastes. I enjoy downshifting one or two gears as needed for power, and some people would rather just push the pedal and call it a day. Different strokes for different folks.
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      05-20-2008, 07:02 PM   #35
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The aforementioned are all fair points. I am still a little torn up about not waiting for the M3. It is the prettier car, but the real world driving, lack if wait, and $8K lower purchase price have swayed me just enough to make the jump to the C63, and I normally HATE regular Mercedes products.

If I had a choice of taking delivery of both cars on the same day, I would probably eat the extra $8k and go with the M3...it is that close, and that is how much I prefer BMWs.

However, I think BMW royally F'ed up the launch of the M3. They produced a bunch of less than desirable launch cars (dead color combos & no DCT) and have made customers wait way too long for delivery of the cars they really want...and are paying sticker for mind you.

Last point, they should have put the DCT in the M3 Sedan from the get go and delayed the M3 Convert until next spring or January. Damn Shame!!!
Wow, I agree EXACTLY with every point you made in both of your posts. Wait wait wait... and pay MSRP or close to it, is the thing that I really can't stand for.

My story is almost EXACTLY the same. I've had a deposit down for an M3 since May 2005... now over 3 years. It's no longer about me being impatient, I'm just ready to buy. I'm done with the shopping, the evaluating and the overthinking. I've read all the magazine articles, and carried the same magazines from living room to bedroom and back and forth, over and over like Linus with a blanket. Reading, waiting, hoping, thinking. I think my OCD has run its course. I am done waiting. I am just not excited anymore. It's stupid. Everyone that has been waiting along with me has already taken delivery. It's time for me to just buy my damned "V8 German cruiser with an edge" and ENJOY it, for whatever it is.

The new C is still fresh, unlike the E90, and there is not yet one on every corner in SoCal like the 3er which has been out for a few years. The C63, like the C55 and C32, and C36, C43... will be more rare than the M3. That scored a few points with me as well. Yeah it's hard to switch brands and I've never been an MB lover, so there is some rationalizing going on here. But in the end... I feel it's just time for me to get the car.

BMW is about to lose me as a (repeat) customer as well, at least this time around. I, like you, would probably purchase the M-DCT E90M if it were sitting side by side with the C63. I'd sacrifice some power and torque for the better steering feel and marvelous engine of the M3.

So call me a spoiled child, but I'm simply done waiting. My car should arrive next week. The true test will come when it's time for me to write that check....
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      05-20-2008, 08:58 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck View Post
Wow, I agree EXACTLY with every point you made in both of your posts. Wait wait wait... and pay MSRP or close to it, is the thing that I really can't stand for.

My story is almost EXACTLY the same. I've had a deposit down for an M3 since May 2005... now over 3 years. It's no longer about me being impatient, I'm just ready to buy. I'm done with the shopping, the evaluating and the overthinking. I've read all the magazine articles, and carried the same magazines from living room to bedroom and back and forth, over and over like Linus with a blanket. Reading, waiting, hoping, thinking. I think my OCD has run its course. I am done waiting. I am just not excited anymore. It's stupid. Everyone that has been waiting along with me has already taken delivery. It's time for me to just buy my damned "V8 German cruiser with an edge" and ENJOY it, for whatever it is.

The new C is still fresh, unlike the E90, and there is not yet one on every corner in SoCal like the 3er which has been out for a few years. The C63, like the C55 and C32, and C36, C43... will be more rare than the M3. That scored a few points with me as well. Yeah it's hard to switch brands and I've never been an MB lover, so there is some rationalizing going on here. But in the end... I feel it's just time for me to get the car.

BMW is about to lose me as a (repeat) customer as well, at least this time around. I, like you, would probably purchase the M-DCT E90M if it were sitting side by side with the C63. I'd sacrifice some power and torque for the better steering feel and marvelous engine of the M3.

So call me a spoiled child, but I'm simply done waiting. My car should arrive next week. The true test will come when it's time for me to write that check....
You right gud.

Seriously, as with some of your others, that post crackled!

Bruce

PS - There is simply no loser when you compare these cars, including the RS4 and IS-F - and I presume the new CTS-V. We're only talking minor degrees of difference, so whatever choice you go with will make you grin.
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      05-20-2008, 09:13 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
You right gud.

Seriously, as with some of your others, that post crackled!

Bruce

PS - There is simply no loser when you compare these cars, including the RS4 and IS-F - and I presume the new CTS-V. We're only talking minor degrees of difference, so whatever choice you go with will make you grin.
Thanks Bruce! I agree... they are all great cars and the differences are minor.

With my latest posts, I think I'm getting too emotional on a public forum

I'm all over the place... it's a sure sign I'm overdue for a car purchase to settle down....
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      05-20-2008, 11:08 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ihyln View Post
"I am still haunted by how I could not put some serious distance between the M3 I was driving and a Nissan Altima that was following me while doing a few 50-80 blasts on the highway during the test drive"

Maybe he isn't stupid enough to do 100-120 to overtake you on a highway? I can't believe you actually pin this as a reason.
For a $73K car with 414 HP, I was disappointed by the level of torque. Personally, I expected more out of the car. Maybe it feels like a lot of torque to you since (according to your profile) you are driving a 530i, whereas I am coming out of a 545i. Personally, I would have never purchased a 530i. To me, it has no balls, but if it works for you great!

My comments are based on MY experience, which was frankly not what I had hoped it would be, and even though I placed my order over 2 months ago I have been having doubts about that aspect of the car. The M3 is a great car, don't get me wrong, but probably not best suited to the "real world" everyday American roadways. I don't know about you, but I live and work around Boston and spend over an hour each way everyday in stop and go traffic on the Mass Turnpike to cover about 25 miles. Basically, that is not going to wring the best performance out of a car like the M3. However, the few (and I mean very few) opportunities that I have to pounce on it daily are probably better experienced in the C63. Just my opinion!

Listen, don't get me wrong, I think the M3 is probably the best handling of the 4 (M3, RS4, C63, IS-F), but unfortunately you can not push any of these cars enough (legally) to see the full benefits of what they have to offer, and that is a shame. If most of the people on this board did not agree with me on the power/torque issue, then there would be far less interest in: Upgrading software, Cold Air Intakes, Headers, etc. because they would already be fully satified with the existing amount of power their M3s already had, don't you agree?

Last edited by mcorliss; 05-20-2008 at 11:23 PM.
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      05-20-2008, 11:44 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck View Post
Wow, I agree EXACTLY with every point you made in both of your posts. Wait wait wait... and pay MSRP or close to it, is the thing that I really can't stand for.

My story is almost EXACTLY the same. I've had a deposit down for an M3 since May 2005... now over 3 years. It's no longer about me being impatient, I'm just ready to buy. I'm done with the shopping, the evaluating and the overthinking. I've read all the magazine articles, and carried the same magazines from living room to bedroom and back and forth, over and over like Linus with a blanket. Reading, waiting, hoping, thinking. I think my OCD has run its course. I am done waiting. I am just not excited anymore. It's stupid. Everyone that has been waiting along with me has already taken delivery. It's time for me to just buy my damned "V8 German cruiser with an edge" and ENJOY it, for whatever it is.

The new C is still fresh, unlike the E90, and there is not yet one on every corner in SoCal like the 3er which has been out for a few years. The C63, like the C55 and C32, and C36, C43... will be more rare than the M3. That scored a few points with me as well. Yeah it's hard to switch brands and I've never been an MB lover, so there is some rationalizing going on here. But in the end... I feel it's just time for me to get the car.

BMW is about to lose me as a (repeat) customer as well, at least this time around. I, like you, would probably purchase the M-DCT E90M if it were sitting side by side with the C63. I'd sacrifice some power and torque for the better steering feel and marvelous engine of the M3.

So call me a spoiled child, but I'm simply done waiting. My car should arrive next week. The true test will come when it's time for me to write that check....
OK...your post is spooky in how familiar I am with the incessant shopping and overthinking phase. Actually, it is like we were separated at birth

I agree with your feelings of frustration...and clearly you are a hell of a lot more patient than I am, but at this point, you should probably go with the M3 since it is SO close at hand.

ME...I am hopeless. The C63 I was going to buy is now apparently under contract at the original dealer and will not be making its way to my dealer. So now my dealer is suggesting that I build a 2009 in August for September delivery...and I am SO sick that I am actually considering it...while at the same time, I am for some reason unwilling to wait for a June build and July delivery for the original M3 that I have on order.

Sooo, what does this tell you? Aside from the fact that I must be insane, I think I am now (as in this exact second) sold on the overall package of C63
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      05-21-2008, 12:33 AM   #40
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Sooo, what does this tell you? Aside from the fact that I must be insane, I think I am now (as in this exact second) sold on the overall package of C63
I can relate to all of that as well as your additional posts. I have been known to change my mind from minute to minute. Maybe it's just a step in the process toward our eventual defecting from BMW.... I agree on your assessment... For the real world situations I encounter, I think the C63 will satisfy me more, and for a longer time of ownership. My expectations are very high for the M3. For the C63, "not so much" .. which already means my satisfaction will probably be greater with the Benz. I'm not setting my sights too high.

Yeah, I have been waiting for a long time for the M3. I even bought a Z4 M Coupe 2 years ago to "play with while I wait for the M3" -- stupidest car purchase ever, as I didn't like driving it much and sold it several months later. I like my torque too and didn't like the S54 engine. I want a car that is low maintenance also. I think the C63 will just be easier for me to live with. And have you seen the cupholders?!?! C63 cupholders FTW!

I've owned 2 BMW's and while I didn't have any problems with either one, and they were both great cars.... they didn't last long in my ownership. I was either bored quickly or just didn't mesh with the car.... Perhaps the gold-chained "AMG" crowd is right for me!

I hope to drive the M3 at the Susan Komen drive this Saturday, before I pull the trigger. I really don't even feel like I'm on the fence anymore. The only issue now is whether I can still hang around M3 post if I get the C63... since this board is a lot more active, and there are a lot more enthusiasts here
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      05-21-2008, 12:52 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck View Post
I can relate to all of that as well as your additional posts. I have been known to change my mind from minute to minute. Maybe it's just a step in the process toward our eventual defecting from BMW.... I agree on your assessment... For the real world situations I encounter, I think the C63 will satisfy me more, and for a longer time of ownership. My expectations are very high for the M3. For the C63, "not so much" .. which already means my satisfaction will probably be greater with the Benz. I'm not setting my sights too high.

Yeah, I have been waiting for a long time for the M3. I even bought a Z4 M Coupe 2 years ago to "play with while I wait for the M3" -- stupidest car purchase ever, as I didn't like driving it much and sold it several months later. I like my torque too and didn't like the S54 engine. I want a car that is low maintenance also. I think the C63 will just be easier for me to live with. And have you seen the cupholders?!?! C63 cupholders FTW!

I've owned 2 BMW's and while I didn't have any problems with either one, and they were both great cars.... they didn't last long in my ownership. I was either bored quickly or just didn't mesh with the car.... Perhaps the gold-chained "AMG" crowd is right for me!

I hope to drive the M3 at the Susan Komen drive this Saturday, before I pull the trigger. I really don't even feel like I'm on the fence anymore. The only issue now is whether I can still hang around M3 post if I get the C63... since this board is a lot more active, and there are a lot more enthusiasts here
Don't forget the other important reason to get the M3...all the aftermarket trinkets for perpetual enhancement when you ultimately get bored (i.e. next month). Seriously though, I have seen something like 10-12 different after-market exhausts already for the M3...simply amazing after-market support, huh?

After an ego-centric weekend of obsessing about which car is better for me, I had settled on a loaded, 2008 White/Blk C63, to only have the rug pulled out from underneath me this afternoon (I found out the other dealer has a local buyer).

Believe it or not, I have actually been thinking of calling the other dealer's salesman and offering him a Grand in cash as motivation to sell the other customer on idea of accepting my dealer's swap currency (early 2009 build) or the sister car to White/Blk one, a 2008 Blk/Gray C63. For some reason, I just can't wait until September myself.

BTW...for what it is worth, I have had some pretty nice cars (all German) over the last 20 years, but my soon to be turned-in 545i (w/sport pkg) has been the most satisfying daily driver to date. However, in the past, I tried to buy several different (as in every) generations of M5 going back to the original one, and I have always been disappointed enough to go with different vehicle, usually from a competitor. I even bought a 1992 Carrera 2 over a M5 because I felt the C2 was actually more refined. I really want to be 100% satisfied with the M3, but I am not finding myself quite there...YET!

Good luck on your decision process!
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      05-21-2008, 08:09 AM   #42
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I gave the C63 serious consideration but I think it looks absolutely ugly. My wife thought the same when we went to look at it. There's no EDC so the ride is REALLY HARSH almost jarring. It's not something I want to drive every day or go on a long trip with.

In addition to that it gets abysmal mileage to the M3 (the M3 is actually better than my 02 530i in that regard).

There are plusses and minuses to every car but to switch to the C63 because you are impatient seems a little shortsighted.. there's a reason why we are all waiting 1-2 months for the car, because it is phenominal and it overcomes the few negatives about it. Remember, the C63 may be cheaper but it does not have EDC and Comfort access.
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      05-21-2008, 08:17 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ihyln View Post
I gave the C63 serious consideration but I think it looks absolutely ugly. My wife thought the same when we went to look at it. There's no EDC so the ride is REALLY HARSH almost jarring. It's not something I want to drive every day or go on a long trip with.

In addition to that it gets abysmal mileage to the M3 (the M3 is actually better than my 02 530i in that regard).

There are plusses and minuses to every car but to switch to the C63 because you are impatient seems a little shortsighted..
Trust me, I understand the real world realities of family influence and everyday commuting. However, I highly doubt anyone will be totally devastated by choosing a C63 over an M3. In my case, it is 39 month lease. If it not the perfect ownership experience, it is still better than 99% of the other choices out there, and then I look at the next gen M3 in 3 years.
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      05-21-2008, 08:27 AM   #44
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Man I'm one of the most impatient people in the world (I almost always choose next day air for packages) so I know how you feel. But this time it took a lot of restraint to wait for the DCT instead of taking the 6MT.

If it's a lease then it's not so bad. Let us know how you like it (and what you dont), don't just slink off to the MB forums.
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