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      04-29-2008, 12:25 PM   #45
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right .... and a chevy taho can fit more then 5 in it and carry luggage? I think not. Most of them dont have 3rd row seating, and if they do you cant put shit in the back. (im talking about the stand. size ones not the suburban ones). I bet you money I can fit 5 people and the same luggage in a A6 Avant.

Im not on a personal crusade against SUVs ... I just think its retarded that 90%+ of people that buy them never use them for their intended purpose.
My Explorer (a standard size SUV) fits 7 with a bit of luggage or 5 with more luggage. It is that flexibility that many people appreciate and we require.

Unless those 90% expect you to pay for their vehicles, I do not see how it is any of your business what they buy and drive. The vehicle was intended for whatever they bought it for.
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      04-29-2008, 12:28 PM   #46
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My Explorer (a standard size SUV) fits 7 with a bit of luggage or 5 with more luggage. It is that flexibility that many people appreciate and we require.

Unless those 90% expect you to pay for their vehicles, I do not see how it is any of your business what they buy and drive. The vehicle was intended for whatever they bought it for.

its fine with me ... then dont complain about what shitty gas milage your getting and how it costs you $200 to go the same distance it would cost you $80 to go in a A6 Avant. Its your choice and you there for pay for it.
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      04-29-2008, 12:33 PM   #47
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Oh, here's a fact that EVERYONE should know. I saw this in Nova's program "Car of the Future". You can watch it online on their site here: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/car/program.html

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And don't forget to listen to Car Talk on NPR (cartalk.com)
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      04-29-2008, 12:44 PM   #48
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its fine with me ... then dont complain about what shitty gas milage your getting and how it costs you $200 to go the same distance it would cost you $80 to go in a A6 Avant. Its your choice and you there for pay for it.
I have not complained about how much it costs to fill up. You are way off in your comparison, according to the EPA the cost of driving my Explorer 25 miles is $5.85 and the A6 Avant is $4.66. So your $200 distance in the Ford cost $160 in the Audi.

If people want SUV's that is their call. Live and let live.
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      04-29-2008, 01:27 PM   #49
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don't worry guys at these prices, things will work themselves out. you'll see a lot less "ballers" driving tahoes by themselves. in the end, everything will correct itself. i believe everyone will downsize their next car's engine choice by 2 cylinders. For example those who drove 8 cyl cars will buy a 6 cyl . And those who had a 6cyl car will get a 4cyl car.
that is not the only thing you will see changing, you see alot more bank holdups, burglaries, home invasions, and all sort of theft...



And the recent strike in the oil workforce in scotland did not help either. And the situation in Nigeria where a pipeline was blown up.

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      04-29-2008, 01:37 PM   #50
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I agree with you on the whole supply and demand and economic out look. However I dont agree about talking to our government about subsidizing gas more then they do. China and the Middle East do it since oil if being drilled there and they are profiting for oil sales. Here in the U.S. our government is holding back on drilling in Alaska (its a poker play IMO as when supply gets low we will the the last ones left with oil). I also think subsidizing will allow our arrogance as Americans to continue to go. Anyone that steps out side of our borders and talks with anyone over seas will make you wake up to how arrogant we are.
I wasn't clear - sorry. I meant talk to our government about applying pressure to others to STOP the subsidies. Others have no problem giving us hell when we subsidise one product or another.
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      04-29-2008, 02:54 PM   #51
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$4.19 at shell today for v-power 91. . . . $64 for the full tank.
Damn son!

3.89 here for 93 over at BP, cost me $58 and change for a full tank.
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      04-29-2008, 03:01 PM   #52
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This isnt a supply and demand issue, supply and demand have been relatively stable for the past 5 years. Whats changed in the past 5 years is the value of the US dollar.. It has dropped like a rock. In the next few years the USD should come back and per barrel of oil should decrease.

Gas is what $3.50 a gallon, but our dollar is worth half of what it used to be.. So if you bring our USD back to normal rates gas should be $1.75.
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      04-29-2008, 03:22 PM   #53
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So if you bring our USD back to normal rates gas should be $1.75.
dream on
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      04-29-2008, 03:26 PM   #54
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I don't often wade into this debate...but when I read this, I just had to. This is the most ignorant comment I have ever come across. Soldiers are dying because of the arrogance and ignorance that started a war that should have never been started to begin with. And then you have the gall to say that you deserve cheap oil as result. I have a lot of american friends and co-workers that are great people...but unfortunately there's people like you that give the rest of the world a reason to hate americans.
Yeah... I'm with ya. But I don't think the world needed a lot of "Extra Reasons" to hate Americans though. But that post above was painfully ignorant.
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      04-29-2008, 03:26 PM   #55
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This isnt a supply and demand issue, supply and demand have been relatively stable for the past 5 years. Whats changed in the past 5 years is the value of the US dollar.. It has dropped like a rock. In the next few years the USD should come back and per barrel of oil should decrease.

Gas is what $3.50 a gallon, but our dollar is worth half of what it used to be.. So if you bring our USD back to normal rates gas should be $1.75.
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      04-29-2008, 03:30 PM   #56
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Screw those big SUV owners that bitch and moan about gas prices. Most big SUVs that I see are driven by one and sometimes two persons on board and most are driven by women (dumb bitches). Does it really take a mini-bus to carry one of those women around town? and they have their sons and daughters fighting in Iraq and the middle east for our (or theirs) oil dependence. I say if you play, you pay. Stop bitching...............
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      04-29-2008, 06:04 PM   #57
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This isnt a supply and demand issue, supply and demand have been relatively stable for the past 5 years. Whats changed in the past 5 years is the value of the US dollar.. It has dropped like a rock. In the next few years the USD should come back and per barrel of oil should decrease.

Gas is what $3.50 a gallon, but our dollar is worth half of what it used to be.. So if you bring our USD back to normal rates gas should be $1.75.

You are correct that the value of the dollar is playing a part. But the demand on the world stage is up significantly, and the supply is not.
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      04-29-2008, 07:13 PM   #58
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You are correct that the value of the dollar is playing a part. But the demand on the world stage is up significantly, and the supply is not.
Do you have the demand data to back it up for the last 5 years?
Did the demand go up 300%, 100%, 20%?
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      04-29-2008, 07:21 PM   #59
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You are correct that the value of the dollar is playing a part. But the demand on the world stage is up significantly, and the supply is not.
Demand has not really played a major factor.. If you look at the facts China is the only one growing in demand at a very quick rate. But its still fractions of what the US uses. And US demand has been near flat for the past 5 years. And supply has been relatively flat but increase at near the rate of China..


The main issue with supply is not the lack of barrels of oil, but the refining capacity. Thats where supply and demand issues happen. And this is party cause by no new refineries being built in what the past 30 years?


As I keep saying all we need to do is cut oil consumption by 25% and that eliminates all the oil we get from the middle east. That will take out the $20-30 a barrel terrorist tax as I call it, aka fear of terrorism disrupting future supply.

We need nuclear power, renewable sources only count for 11% of our energy, the rest comes from coal and gas. Again democrats and environmentalists have blocked building new nuclear power plants. Yet they spew on about global warming an C02 and are ignorant to the fact that nuclear is the only way to provide the power we need.

Just by doing that we can cut oil and coal usage by a heck of a lot.

And do we honestly need SUV's? I used to have one and it was just stupid. I went off roading like 5-6 times in the 2 years I had it. And even then I wish I had a pick up or an ATV. I had maybe once a month with a SUV full of people but still my BMW can hold 5 same as my old Benz SUV.


And we still need diesel cars.
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      04-29-2008, 08:48 PM   #60
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World demand has grown by about 10% over the last 5 years. The problem is not just the demand but an absence of excess production capacity. There is very little cushion to compensate for minor disruptions in production and fear of such disruptions is moving the market price up.

Conservation would help but increasing production is just as important. We cannot continue to close off domestic production and complain when the price of oil keeps escalating.

While I am all for increasing our domestic refining capacity, I do not see how our lack of refineries is increasing the world price of oil. If anything it is limiting our demand and that should create negative pressure on price. It does limit our supply of gasoline and does contribute to the increase in the price of gasoline but its effect is minor compared to the cost of crude.

And yes many people do need SUV's. SUV's and minivans fill a niche for people who you regularly have to transport more than 5 people. People do still have kids and one SUV is more efficient that two cars for those times a
family travels together.

As for diesels, we plan to replace our Explorer with an X5d as soon as they are available.
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      04-29-2008, 09:14 PM   #61
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Do you have the demand data to back it up for the last 5 years?
Did the demand go up 300%, 100%, 20%?
Here, this is 12 hours old. Try Google.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/20...nt_8075648.htm

BEIJING, April 29 (Xinhua) -- Soaring oil prices have not slowed China's consumption of oil as statistics show that China's apparent consumption of crude oil and refined oil products both hit record highs in the first quarter of the year.

According to statistics released Tuesday by the China Petroleum and Chemical Industry Association (CPCIA), China's apparent consumption of oil products composed of gasoline, diesel and kerosene rose by 16.5 percent year on year to 52.73 million tonnes in the first three months, and crude oil, rose by eight percent to91.8 million tonnes.

The "apparent consumption" represents the sum of net imports and output and could be taken as an index for the real oil consumption excluding inventory.

The growth of oil products consumption was a record high and much higher than the same period of last year, which was only 3.6 percent, said Shu Zhaoxia, professor of the Economics and Development Research Institute of China Petrochemical Corporation (Sinopec Group). Sinopec Group is China's top oil refiner.

The growth of crude oil consumption was 2.5 percentage points higher than a year ago.

State ceilings on prices of domestic oil products was the major reason contributing to China's surging oil consumption in the first quarter.

Below-cost fuel prices did not restrain China's demand for oil but rather boosted it, said Shu.

China's gross domestic product (GDP) rose by 10.6 percent in the first quarter, 1.1 percentage points down from a year ago but still at a high level.

Deng Yusong, a researcher with the Development Research Center of the State Council, said that abnormal needs boosted by below-cost prices of refined oil products controlled by the central government over concerns of the country's rising CPI is another major reason contributing to the country's surging oil consumption.

State ceiling on domestic oil products prices has led to both smuggling and cornering of oil products, said Shu.

According to Shu, reconstruction of the country's snow-hit south also increased the real demand for oil products.

China's crude oil output rose by 2.2 percent to 46.85 million tonnes in the first quarter.

The output of gasoline went up 7.0 percent from a year ago to 15.7 million tonnes, diesel, up 11.2 percent to 32.4 million tonnes, and kerosene, up 17.5 percent to 3.03 million tonnes, according to the National Bureau of Statistics.

China processed 84.6 million tonnes of crude oil in the first quarter, up 7.6 percent from a year ago. The growth rate was two percentage points higher than the first three months of last year.

China's net imports of crude oil was 44.95 million tonnes in the first quarter, up 14.9 percent, and net imports of oil products rose by 31.8 percent from a year ago to 5.47 million tonnes, according to General Administration of Customs.

China's imports of diesel in the first quarter surged over 600 percent to 1.66 million tonnes and the imports of gasoline, rose by nearly twice to 76,654 tonnes.



****************

and from the LA times

Unquestionably, there's some truth to this. China's consumption of oil rose from about 4.2 million barrels a day in 1997 to 7.8 million barrels in 2007, an increase of 86%, the U.S. Department of Energy reported earlier this year. More to the point, the percentage of this oil that had to be imported grew even more. In 1997, China supplied all but 1 million barrels of the oil it consumed each day from domestic fields; by 2007, the shortfall between domestic output and consumption had jumped to 4 million barrels, all of which had to be imported.
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      04-29-2008, 09:22 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by TurboFan View Post
Here, this is 12 hours old. Try Google.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/20...nt_8075648.htm

BEIJING, April 29 (Xinhua) -- Soaring oil prices have not slowed China's consumption of oil as statistics show that China's apparent consumption of crude oil and refined oil products both hit record highs in the first quarter of the year.

According to statistics released Tuesday by the China Petroleum and Chemical Industry Association (CPCIA), China's apparent consumption of oil products composed of gasoline, diesel and kerosene rose by 16.5 percent year on year to 52.73 million tonnes in the first three months, and crude oil, rose by eight percent to91.8 million tonnes.

The "apparent consumption" represents the sum of net imports and output and could be taken as an index for the real oil consumption excluding inventory.

The growth of oil products consumption was a record high and much higher than the same period of last year, which was only 3.6 percent, said Shu Zhaoxia, professor of the Economics and Development Research Institute of China Petrochemical Corporation (Sinopec Group). Sinopec Group is China's top oil refiner.

The growth of crude oil consumption was 2.5 percentage points higher than a year ago.

State ceilings on prices of domestic oil products was the major reason contributing to China's surging oil consumption in the first quarter.

Below-cost fuel prices did not restrain China's demand for oil but rather boosted it, said Shu.

China's gross domestic product (GDP) rose by 10.6 percent in the first quarter, 1.1 percentage points down from a year ago but still at a high level.

Deng Yusong, a researcher with the Development Research Center of the State Council, said that abnormal needs boosted by below-cost prices of refined oil products controlled by the central government over concerns of the country's rising CPI is another major reason contributing to the country's surging oil consumption.

State ceiling on domestic oil products prices has led to both smuggling and cornering of oil products, said Shu.

According to Shu, reconstruction of the country's snow-hit south also increased the real demand for oil products.

China's crude oil output rose by 2.2 percent to 46.85 million tonnes in the first quarter.

The output of gasoline went up 7.0 percent from a year ago to 15.7 million tonnes, diesel, up 11.2 percent to 32.4 million tonnes, and kerosene, up 17.5 percent to 3.03 million tonnes, according to the National Bureau of Statistics.

China processed 84.6 million tonnes of crude oil in the first quarter, up 7.6 percent from a year ago. The growth rate was two percentage points higher than the first three months of last year.

China's net imports of crude oil was 44.95 million tonnes in the first quarter, up 14.9 percent, and net imports of oil products rose by 31.8 percent from a year ago to 5.47 million tonnes, according to General Administration of Customs.

China's imports of diesel in the first quarter surged over 600 percent to 1.66 million tonnes and the imports of gasoline, rose by nearly twice to 76,654 tonnes.



****************

and from the LA times

Unquestionably, there's some truth to this. China's consumption of oil rose from about 4.2 million barrels a day in 1997 to 7.8 million barrels in 2007, an increase of 86%, the U.S. Department of Energy reported earlier this year. More to the point, the percentage of this oil that had to be imported grew even more. In 1997, China supplied all but 1 million barrels of the oil it consumed each day from domestic fields; by 2007, the shortfall between domestic output and consumption had jumped to 4 million barrels, all of which had to be imported.
Thanks,

So, to your claim above, the demand grew FAR from "significant" as the prices of gas (at least here) grew significantly...

Also, the World supply still outruns the demand at this point...
"the latest projections from the International Energy Agency showing supply at 87.3 million barrels a day and demand at 87.2 million barrels. Tight, but supply is still ahead of demand."

Source: http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com...anePrices.aspx
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      04-29-2008, 11:29 PM   #63
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China needs to stop reproducing.
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      04-30-2008, 10:24 AM   #64
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Thanks,

So, to your claim above, the demand grew FAR from "significant" as the prices of gas (at least here) grew significantly...

Also, the World supply still outruns the demand at this point...
"the latest projections from the International Energy Agency showing supply at 87.3 million barrels a day and demand at 87.2 million barrels. Tight, but supply is still ahead of demand."

Source: http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com...anePrices.aspx
What is the margin of error? Is that barrels of gasoloine or crude? That tight of supply is more than enough to induce panic in the mercantile markets, which is what we now see.

That growth of consumption is not significant? 86% is not significant? You must be kiding me. Any growth like that is significant, and anytime demand goes up, and supply can not match it, in a normal market, prices will increase. What's your theory, Bush is hoarding it at his ranch in Texas???
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      04-30-2008, 10:35 AM   #65
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What is the margin of error? Is that barrels of gasoloine or crude? That tight of supply is more than enough to induce panic in the mercantile markets, which is what we now see.

That growth of consumption is not significant? 86% is not significant? You must be kiding me. Any growth like that is significant, and anytime demand goes up, and supply can not match it, in a normal market, prices will increase. What's your theory, Bush is hoarding it at his ranch in Texas???
Do not expect logic or reason from dr325i. In any matter that he believes remotely involves George W. Bush, he is incapable of either.
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      04-30-2008, 11:31 AM   #66
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That growth of consumption is not significant? 86% is not significant? You must be kiding me. Any growth like that is significant, and anytime demand goes up, and supply can not match it, in a normal market, prices will increase. What's your theory, Bush is hoarding it at his ranch in Texas???
First of all -- the growth you keep mentioning is over 10 years, not 5 as you were asked to post.
Second, the growth of 86% is still nothing as compared to 400% more we're paying at the gas station as compared to 1997...

I did not mention Bush name at all. But since you did -- it is still strange how the gas prices only exploded on his watch (last 7 years, and not before that) since the China industrial revolution started 20 years ago. We all know he and his family loves oil...
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