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      05-16-2008, 08:33 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post

Again, what evidence do you have to support Obama's contention that he is bipartisan? Give me something, anything.
Mathematical/Scientific approach to show this is very simple. Every measuse is relative to something. So, relative to today's bi-partisan approach (current admin) -- everything else will be super-bi-partisan.
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      05-16-2008, 08:36 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by fedinand View Post
Yes, I can be - as you are. Pot...kettle...black anyone?

I said Obama was more bipartisan than Hillary - don't twist what I say to fit your argument.
I applaud and value partisanship. I make no claim to want a president who is bipartisan. In fact one of the (many) things I dislike about John McCain is his long record of actually working across party lines and compromising conservative values. If you do value bipartisanship as you claim, John McCain has shown himself to be a better example of it than Obama.

Hillary Clinton is a divisive candidate in a partisan sense but her record in the Senate is actually a bit less partisan than Obama's.
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      05-16-2008, 08:52 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post

Again, what evidence do you have to support Obama's contention that he is bipartisan? Give me something, anything.
Just a couple for starters:
http://www.grist.org/news/muck/2006/07/26/fuel-econ/
http://obama.senate.gov/press/071204-obama_bipartisa/
and even when he pisses of democrats:
http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/2/11/18843/1786
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      05-16-2008, 08:59 AM   #70
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Oh and since this is about team McCain here is his what Hagee is about - this is the man McCain sought out to get his endorsement:
http://news.google.com/news?q=Rev.+H...num=1&ct=title
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      05-16-2008, 09:36 AM   #71
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"Afrocentric" Christian churches but Jesus first, but they do put an emphasis in helping ones community. I dont know why thats such a bad thing. You should attend a black church, its not as scary as you may think. its really easy for the media and those who are ignorant of the culture within those churches to discredit them. I'm also willing to bet that Trinity has several white members who are welcomed as equal members. And if the church was sooo scary and anti-white, why did Bill Clinton seek the help of J. Wright when he got in trouble with Monica L? Another thing that must be mentioned is that Wright is apparently highly regarded by the large majority of pastors who know him, black or white. Also Hillary Clinton's pastor was one that came to the aid of Wright.
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      05-16-2008, 09:43 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by fedinand View Post
Fuel economy and heating oil??

Those are the great instances of bipartisanship? Boy he really went out on a limb on those didn't he?

Maybe next he'll sponsor a bipartisan resolution honoring Abraham Lincoln! That would be a good one because old Abe was a Republican you know.
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      05-16-2008, 09:51 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by lyndon_h View Post
"Afrocentric" Christian churches but Jesus first, but they do put an emphasis in helping ones community. I dont know why thats such a bad thing. You should attend a black church, its not as scary as you may think. its really easy for the media and those who are ignorant of the culture within those churches to discredit them. I'm also willing to bet that Trinity has several white members who are welcomed as equal members. And if the church was sooo scary and anti-white, why did Bill Clinton seek the help of J. Wright when he got in trouble with Monica L? Another thing that must be mentioned is that Wright is apparently highly regarded by the large majority of pastors who know him, black or white. Also Hillary Clinton's pastor was one that came to the aid of Wright.
Do you know of a church that does NOT put an emphasis on helping the community? That is what churches do.

I have no fear at all of Afrocentric churches but the fact remains that by their self-designated nature, they are not inclusive.
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      05-16-2008, 10:02 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Fuel economy and heating oil??

Those are the great instances of bipartisanship? Boy he really went out on a limb on those didn't he?

Maybe next he'll sponsor a bipartisan resolution honoring Abraham Lincoln! That would be a good one because old Abe was a Republican you know.
Now you want expamples that you deem worthy...classic...keep changing the question and criteria..oh thanks for the history lesson and love your condescending attitude - you are the classic Repub that America is so tired of.
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      05-16-2008, 10:03 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Do you know of a church that does NOT put an emphasis on helping the community? That is what churches do.

I have no fear at all of Afrocentric churches but the fact remains that by their self-designated nature, they are not inclusive.
I bet you could walk into one and be welcomed with open arms (in fact whites, gays, et.al. are in Obama's church). I wonder if an openly gay person could walk into Hagees's church and be welcomed with such openness?

You cannot pigeonhole all "afrocentric" churches based on the actions of some. That's akin to saying "white" churches all act like Hagees'
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      05-16-2008, 10:08 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lem144 View Post
I bet you could walk into one and be welcomed with open arms (in fact they do in Obama's church). I wonder if an openly gay person could walk into Hagees's church and be welcomed with such openness?
Hell to the no! - Don't you know gay people are the ruin of society..and thats why Katrina blew away NewOrleans (must be why God's wrath buried all those conservative small towns in Katrina's way also). The dude is a staight up freak and the media has barely touched on this...but it will all come to light when it becomes a one on one general election. Get the popcorn ready..its going to be a good show!
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      05-16-2008, 10:16 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by lem144 View Post
You cannot pigeonhole all "afrocentric" churches based on the actions of some. That's akin to saying "white" churches all act like Hagees'
His vast knowledge on the subject comes from Youtube - its the republican way.
I think you can safely say from his postings that he has never encountered an afrocentric church personally - otherwise he wouldn't cling (sorry Barack, I said cling ) to his theory that it is a divisive and scary thing - although we know in the internets that you can claim whatever you want so he will probaly tell us of the horrible times when those black churches ran him out of the service. He doesn't want an Afrocentric church to anything other than devisive - otherwise the Wright issue would be mute..and he is banking on the anger of the uninformed to translate to voting against their interests.

Last edited by fedinand; 05-16-2008 at 12:34 PM. Reason: spelling
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      05-16-2008, 10:33 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by fedinand View Post
Now you want expamples that you deem worthy...classic...keep changing the question and criteria..oh thanks for the history lesson and love your condescending attitude - you are the classic Repub that America is so tired of.
I want examples that show an actual level of bipartisanship. An example of where Obama stepped across the aisle to work with a large percentage of Republicans on a subject that generally divides Democrats from Republicans.

Working with a handful of Republicans on a couple of virtually non-contentious
issues hardly qualifies.

I disagreed with Mc-Cain on everyone of these issues but McCain-Feingold Campaign Finance, McCain-Kennedy Immigration Reform, and the Gang of 14 are examples of actual bipartisanship.
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      05-16-2008, 10:40 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by fedinand View Post
"His congress" just strengthened their majority by picking up two formerly republican strongholds (MS and LA) in the deep south..its not democrats in congress who should be worried...but I'm sure you already know that.
Ah, you mean those two "democratic" congressmen who are both pro-life, support the second amendment and ran on generally republican principles?
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shit, if i had that kind of money id buy a gtstreet for monday, an ascari a10 for tuesday, a DBS for wednesday and id just ride jessica alba the rest of the week.
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      05-16-2008, 10:44 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fedinand View Post
His vast knowledge on the subject comes from Youtube - its the republican way.
I think you can safely say from his postings that he has never encountered an afrocentric church personally - otherwise he wouldn't cling (sorry Barack, I said cling ) to his theory that it is a divisive and scary thing - althoug we know in the internets that you can claim whatever you want so he will probaly tell us of the horrible times when those black churches ran him out of the service. He doesn't want an Afrocentric church to anything other than devisive - otherwise the Wright issue would be mute..and he is banking on the anger of the uninformed to translate to voting against their interests.
You really should try to stay on topic. I have never expressed a fear or disdain for Afrocentric churches. I do not give them enough thought to be either afraid or concerned about them. This issue is whether or not the specific church that Obama attends is an inclusive or divisive community. There is sufficient evidence in the public record to show that Trinity United was and remains an extremely racially divisive community.

I have never felt anything but warmly welcomed in black churches whether there for a wedding or a funeral but then the Pastor never ranted against "whitey" to the best of my knowledge. The same could not be said regarding Rev Wright.
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      05-16-2008, 10:46 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
An Afrocentric church is by definition one divided by race.
This is only your OPINION not the true definition of Afrocentric. You are entitled to your opinion, however opinions are not facts. Let's look at the facts. See below for the true definition of Afrocentric from Webster's.

Af·ro·cen·tric Pronunciation[af-roh-sen-trik]
–adjective
centered on Africa or on African-derived cultures, as those of Brazil, Cuba, and Haiti: Afrocentric art.

There is no mention of race, only of continent and culture. Last I checked there are many whites as well as many other races living in South Africa on the continent of Africa, as well as in the countries of Brazil and Cuba who share an Afrocentric way of life.


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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
"Jesus was a poor black man who lived in a country and who lived in a culture, that was controlled by rich white people! The Romans were rich. The Romans were Italians, which means they were European, which means they were white -- and the Romans ran everything in Jesus' country. It just came to me within the past few weeks, y'all, why so many folk are hatin' on Barack Obama. He doesn't fit the model! He ain't white, he ain't rich, and he ain't privileged."

Not only is this historical nonsense, it is extremely racially divisive.
The quote above are the unfortunate words of an angry EX PASTOR who felt personally attacked after unwittingly and unwillingly being drawn into a media circus smear campaign on Barack Obama. Those words have nothing to do with the mission statement of the Trinity Unity church which is one of upliftment and empowerment of the community it serves.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Obama held his political "coming out" at the Ayers' home. He served on panels and a board with Ayers for years. He continued to serve with him after 9/11. I'm no sure what you would expect to be proven. He showed what I believe to be poor judgment in having and retaining any type of relationship with an avowed terrorist.
Again let's stick to the facts. Obama served on the board of the Woods Fund of Chicago which is an anti-poverty foundation founded in 1941 during a 3 year period when Ayers served on the board for the same foundation. In 1995, State Senator Alice Palmer introduced Obama as her chosen successor at a meeting at Ayer's house. Ayers, who lived in the same Chicago neighborhood Obama did, had donated $200 to Obama's 2001 state senate campaign. There is currently no proof or evidence that their relationship extends beyond the philanthropy/political arena. Ayer's questionable past occured 30 years before ever meeting Obama. Let's also not forget that Ayers, who is now an accomplished, well respected educator in Chicago, was never convicted of a crime.

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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Hmmm.... that's tough one. How about voting to filibuster the nomination of Justice Alito and then voting not to confirm him? Being one of only 22 senators to vote against the nomination of Chief Justice Roberts? Being only one of 14 senators to vote against a Iraq/Afghanistan funding bill? Barack Obama has been named the most liberal member of the Senate by the National Journal. You do not reach such a lofty position by regularly crossing the aisle.

Can you give me an example of his bipartisanship?
Here's 2:

Obama and republican senator Coburn worked together on a major bill providing for much greater transparency in spending bills.

Obama and republican senator Richard Lugar worked together on a nuclear non-proliferation initiative which enhances U.S. efforts to destroy conventional weapons stockpiles and to detect and interdict weapons and materials of mass destruction throughout the world.

I've red that Obama tries to find people, both Democrats and Republicans, who actually care about a particular issue enough to try to get the policy right, and then he works with them. This does not involve compromising on principle. It does, however, involve preferring getting legislation passed to having a spectacular battle.

1180 of your Republican friends seem to agree: http://republicansforobama.org/?q=og/all
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      05-16-2008, 10:50 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
I want examples that show an actual level of bipartisanship. An example of where Obama stepped across the aisle to work with a large percentage of Republicans on a subject that generally divides Democrats from Republicans.

Working with a handful of Republicans on a couple of virtually non-contentious
issues hardly qualifies.

I disagreed with Mc-Cain on everyone of these issues but McCain-Feingold Campaign Finance, McCain-Kennedy Immigration Reform, and the Gang of 14 are examples of actual bipartisanship.
I copied the following, and if you read Obama's book, this is the crux of the argument:

"Because to make real policy changes requires convincing people that you're right, not just getting 50% + 1, and ramming through your legislation. Obama's attempt to garner broad support doesn't mean he'll sell out his ideals to the right wing, and move towards the center politically—the way Bill Clinton did after his first couple years in office—but rather that he'll explain to the electorate, particularly moderate Republicans and moderate Democrats, why a liberal policy agenda is good for them too.

This means standing up in 2002 against the bogus Halliburton-driven foreign policy which many Democrats were happy to go along with as long as it was convenient. This means explaining that our economic woes are not caused by undocumented immigration, and stating straight-up that we should reject policy based on scapegoating, and give out drivers licenses to undocumented workers because it makes sense, not because it polls well. This means making an energy policy that greens can be proud of and labor policy that unions can get behind and education policy that teachers will support and technology policy that tech-freedom fighters will rally around, and then taking those policies and selling them to the majority of the country."

http://www.harvarddems.com/node/3317

Now, you might not agree, and you might actually like partisanship and fighting that gets us nowhere, but in his book, I've read it, Obama approaches a subject first from the other side. He explains and understands all sides of an issue. Then, he considers and explains how this rationale is flawed, or how it does not help the arguers' position, and then explains how his side of the issue is more beneficial, even if it is at odds with the person or group he is referring to. It's very compelling, and isn't the type of "caving in" that is the type of "bi-partisanship" you speak of. Obama, unlike Clinton, will not give up his beliefs. Obama, unlike W, will however talk to people he does not agree with, try to understand their position and be open with his administration. In this weeks news it's related to foreign policy, but it's the type of foreign policy we need and that neoconservatives just don't get it.

It's a thoughtfulness and honesty which we have never seen (I'm 29), which I think is why so many people are skeptical.
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      05-16-2008, 10:56 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post

Hmmm.... that's tough one. How about voting to filibuster the nomination of Justice Alito and then voting not to confirm him? Being one of only 22 senators to vote against the nomination of Chief Justice Roberts? Being only one of 14 senators to vote against a Iraq/Afghanistan funding bill?
Unfortunately both of them got on the court - they should never have been confirmed. We'll have to live with their backwards votes for decades now.

What do you say of the Republicans who have killed the latest war funding bill? You and I both know there are reasons they did it...
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      05-16-2008, 11:00 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by FirstClass View Post
Ah, you mean those two "democratic" congressmen who are both pro-life, support the second amendment and ran on generally republican principles?
Say it with me now... Democrats just increased their majority - Democrats truly have a diverse range of opinions unlike the Repubs. We have a big tent in reality whereas you have one just as a term and nothring else.
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      05-16-2008, 11:04 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lem144 View Post
I copied the following, and if you read Obama's book, this is the crux of the argument:

"Because to make real policy changes requires convincing people that you're right, not just getting 50% + 1, and ramming through your legislation. Obama's attempt to garner broad support doesn't mean he'll sell out his ideals to the right wing, and move towards the center politically—the way Bill Clinton did after his first couple years in office—but rather that he'll explain to the electorate, particularly moderate Republicans and moderate Democrats, why a liberal policy agenda is good for them too.

This means standing up in 2002 against the bogus Halliburton-driven foreign policy which many Democrats were happy to go along with as long as it was convenient. This means explaining that our economic woes are not caused by undocumented immigration, and stating straight-up that we should reject policy based on scapegoating, and give out drivers licenses to undocumented workers because it makes sense, not because it polls well. This means making an energy policy that greens can be proud of and labor policy that unions can get behind and education policy that teachers will support and technology policy that tech-freedom fighters will rally around, and then taking those policies and selling them to the majority of the country."

http://www.harvarddems.com/node/3317

Now, you might not agree, and you might actually like partisanship and fighting that gets us nowhere, but in his book, I've read it, Obama approaches a subject first from the other side. He explains and understands all sides of an issue. Then, he considers and explains how this rationale is flawed, or how it does not help the arguers' position, and then explains how his side of the issue is more beneficial, even if it is at odds with the person or group he is referring to. It's very compelling, and isn't the type of "caving in" that is the type of "bi-partisanship" you speak of. Obama, unlike Clinton, will not give up his beliefs. Obama, unlike W, will however talk to people he does not agree with, try to understand their position and be open with his administration. In this weeks news it's related to foreign policy, but it's the type of foreign policy we need and that neoconservatives just don't get it.

It's a thoughtfulness and honesty which we have never seen (I'm 29), which I think is why so many people are skeptical.

Very good post. And this way of thinking seems to expand beyond just his views in legislation. He has said to be very willing to listen to all sides of an argument during meetings (which is VERY different from the current administration, which uses intimidation to curtail any viewpoints different from their own). I'm not here to say that Obama shits rainbows, but he does seem to be on a different level than any of the other presidential campaigns.

Another note: His campaign has been making a strong effort over the last couple of weeks to tell his major donors not to donate money to 527s that will run smear campaigns against McCain. Of course, there will be smearing, but you can bet that the McCain smear machine will be much more active (and some Republicans have already run ads against Obamas wife, which is low and cowardly ).
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      05-16-2008, 11:16 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by BKsBimmer View Post
This is only your OPINION not the true definition of Afrocentric. You are entitled to your opinion, however opinions are not facts. Let's look at the facts. See below for the true definition of Afrocentric from Webster's.

Af·ro·cen·tric Pronunciation[af-roh-sen-trik]
–adjective
centered on Africa or on African-derived cultures, as those of Brazil, Cuba, and Haiti: Afrocentric art.

There is no mention of race, only of continent and culture. Last I checked there are many whites as well as many other races living in South Africa on the continent of Africa, as well as in the countries of Brazil and Cuba who share an Afrocentric way of life.
So you would say that the blond haired, blue eyed children of my childhood friend and his blond haired, blue eyed, South African wife are properly to be regarded as African-Americans?

Your "no mention of race" argument does not apply to the Trinity United Church though, does it? That would be the church that in its own words, is "Unashamedly Black" with "roots in the Black religious experience," with a "cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community."

Quote:
The quote above are the unfortunate words of an angry EX PASTOR who felt personally attacked after unwittingly and unwillingly being drawn into a media circus smear campaign on Barack Obama. Those words have nothing to do with the mission statement of the Trinity Unity church which is one of upliftment and empowerment of the community it serves.
They are not isolated comments that were markedly different than what he was saying for the 20 years prior to the Obama campaign. Those are the words of the man who Barack Obama chose as his pastor, who he chose to perform his wedding, who he chose to baptize his children. He is an ex pastor only because he recently retired, not because of anything Obama did.

Quote:
Again let's stick to the facts. Obama served on the board of the Woods Fund of Chicago which is an anti-poverty foundation founded in 1941 during a 3 year period when Ayers served on the board for the same foundation. In 1995, State Senator Alice Palmer introduced Obama as her chosen successor at a meeting at Ayer's house. Ayers, who lived in the same Chicago neighborhood Obama did, had donated $200 to Obama's 2001 state senate campaign. There is currently no proof or evidence that their relationship extends beyond the philanthropy/political arena. Let's also not forget that Ayers, who is now an accomplished, well respected educator in Chicago, was never convicted of a crime.
The fact that the government screwed up the prosecution does not morally change what the man admits to doing. He admits he set bombs and wishes he had set more of them.

It does not matter if the relationship extends beyond the philanthropy/political arena because he is running for political office.

Ayers is well respected by whom? Other radicals? Che Guevara may also be well respected but that would not change the fact that he was a murderous monster.

Quote:
Here's 2:

Obama and republican senator Coburn worked together on a major bill providing for much greater transparency in spending bills.

Obama and republican senator Richard Lugar worked together on a nuclear non-proliferation initiative which enhances U.S. efforts to destroy conventional weapons stockpiles and to detect and interdict weapons and materials of mass destruction throughout the world.
Again, not exactly issues that cut across the partisan divide are they?

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I've red that Obama tries to find people, both Democrats and Republicans, who actually care about a particular issue enough to try to get the policy right, and then he works with them. This does not involve compromising on principle. It does, however, involve preferring getting legislation passed to having a spectacular battle.
You've read that, have you? Let me know when you find an example where it is put into practice.
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      05-16-2008, 11:28 AM   #87
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...but rather that he'll explain to the electorate, particularly moderate Republicans and moderate Democrats, why a liberal policy agenda is good for them too.
Oh, now I see. Bipartisanship is when he gets to tell others what is good for them.

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Now, you might not agree, and you might actually like partisanship and fighting that gets us nowhere, but in his book, I've read it, Obama approaches a subject first from the other side. He explains and understands all sides of an issue. Then, he considers and explains how this rationale is flawed, or how it does not help the arguers' position, and then explains how his side of the issue is more beneficial, even if it is at odds with the person or group he is referring to. It's very compelling, and isn't the type of "caving in" that is the type of "bi-partisanship" you speak of. Obama, unlike Clinton, will not give up his beliefs. Obama, unlike W, will however talk to people he does not agree with, try to understand their position and be open with his administration. In this weeks news it's related to foreign policy, but it's the type of foreign policy we need and that neoconservatives just don't get it.

It's a thoughtfulness and honesty which we have never seen (I'm 29), which I think is why so many people are skeptical.
Tell me one instance where Obama has stood in front of a crowd and told them something that they did not want to hear.
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      05-16-2008, 11:32 AM   #88
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Unfortunately both of them got on the court - they should never have been confirmed. We'll have to live with their backwards votes for decades now.

What do you say of the Republicans who have killed the latest war funding bill? You and I both know there are reasons they did it...
What is a backward vote?
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