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      05-15-2008, 01:47 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by fedinand View Post
He knew full well what he was - Hell, Hagee has been well documented in his craziness and he published a book - McCain Knew..don't even try it. When the general election comes around you will all see how out there he is...and don't forget the other nut job Parsly - he is just as bad.
Tell me, has McCain funded either of these men to the tune of $20K+?
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      05-15-2008, 02:00 PM   #46
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Tell me, has McCain funded either of these men to the tune of $20K+?
I don't know what deals were made - do you? Do you contribute to your church? Obama does, and his church is more than a snippet of Rev. Wright. You try to paint Rev. Wright as the boogy man, but you know nothing about him other than the soundclips you repubs are so fond of. A lifetime of service reduced to a 3 minute clip - that is so republican. But I do hope you and your ilk actually continue this smear because the country is already tired of it and its losing its shock value - there is nothing new here, whereas the country has no idea how crazy McCain's spiritual advisors are.
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      05-15-2008, 02:57 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
He chose to go to a church that preaches racial divisiveness
The Trinity U N I T Y Church is an Afrocentric church. It's message is one of upliftment and empowerment to the community it serves. The church does not espouse or preach racial devisiveness anymore than a synagogue or mosque preaches racial divisiveness.

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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
he chose to associate with unrepentant terrorists
Here you are obviously talking about Bill Ayers and his wife. By your own admission you don't know the nature or extent of Obama's relationship or association with them other than what's already been well publicized, which proves nothing. Yet, you're quick to assume the worst. When you have facts to back up your suspicions you'll have a more credible argument. Still waiting...

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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
he chose to be one of the least bi-partisan members of the US Senate.
Give me an example of Obama's partisanship
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      05-15-2008, 02:57 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Tell me, has McCain funded either of these men to the tune of $20K+?
Big difference pandering to a hateful person and donating money to a church that has helped the community it serves. Donating to the church is not giving money to the pastor.

Rethugs hold such double-standards it's not even funny.
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      05-15-2008, 05:42 PM   #49
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The Trinity U N I T Y Church is an Afrocentric church. It's message is one of upliftment and empowerment to the community it serves. The church does not espouse or preach racial devisiveness anymore than a synagogue or mosque preaches racial divisiveness.
An Afrocentric church is by definition one divided by race.

"Jesus was a poor black man who lived in a country and who lived in a culture, that was controlled by rich white people! The Romans were rich. The Romans were Italians, which means they were European, which means they were white -- and the Romans ran everything in Jesus' country. It just came to me within the past few weeks, y'all, why so many folk are hatin' on Barack Obama. He doesn't fit the model! He ain't white, he ain't rich, and he ain't privileged."

Not only is this historical nonsense, it is extremely racially divisive.



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Here you are obviously talking about Bill Ayers and his wife. By your own admission you don't know the nature or extent of Obama's relationship or association with them other than what's already been well publicized, which proves nothing. Yet, you're quick to assume the worst. When you have facts to back up your suspicions you'll have a more credible argument. Still waiting...
Obama held his political "coming out" at the Ayers' home. He served on panels and a board with Ayers for years. He continued to serve with him after 9/11. I'm no sure what you would expect to be proven. He showed what I believe to be poor judgment in having and retaining any type of relationship with an avowed terrorist.

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Give me an example of Obama's partisanship
Hmmm.... that's tough one. How about voting to filibuster the nomination of Justice Alito and then voting not to confirm him? Being one of only 22 senators to vote against the nomination of Chief Justice Roberts? Being only one of 14 senators to vote against a Iraq/Afghanistan funding bill? Barack Obama has been named the most liberal member of the Senate by the National Journal. You do not reach such a lofty position by regularly crossing the aisle.

Can you give me an example of his bipartisanship?
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      05-15-2008, 06:01 PM   #50
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      05-15-2008, 06:30 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
An Afrocentric church is by definition one divided by race.
You are funny - only the repub could twist it like that. So riddle me this...is a Eurocentric perspective also racist? Because an Afrocentric church exists because American history was/is Eurocentric to the point of the exclusion of people of color. Afrocentric perspective/church merely looks to include the contributions of Africans and to counter the "Africa is backwards" mentality. I could see why you would be so threatened by that.

Afrocentric perspective looks at things such as how Jesus is portrayed as a blue eyed straight haired white man when the Bible took place in the Middle East and Upper Africa...funny how that is. Esp. when the bible says he had skin of copper (not like a penny, but like the old copper pots...) and hair like wool....hmm...wonder why they never taught me that in Sunday school. The Afrocentric Church exist because facts like this are never spoken about in America's Eurocentric culture.

And I applaud the hell out of Obama for standing up against Alito...too bad we didn't have more like him. Blind allegiance, again, is not a good thing - and because he has principles and a backbone doesn't make him partisan - it makes him a good man and a great leader.
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      05-15-2008, 07:26 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by fedinand View Post
You are funny - only the repub could twist it like that. So riddle me this...is a Eurocentric perspective also racist? Because an Afrocentric church exists because American history was/is Eurocentric to the point of the exclusion of people of color. Afrocentric perspective/church merely looks to include the contributions of Africans and to counter the "Africa is backwards" mentality. I could see why you would be so threatened by that.
Racially divisive is not necessarily synonymous with racist so lets try to maintain common terminology. To answer your question, if I formed a church and labeled it Euro-centric, it would in fact be racially divisive. I am not threatened by by an Afrocentric church at all but it clearly is not racially unifying entity. It is in fact exactly the opposite.

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Afrocentric perspective looks at things such as how Jesus is portrayed as a blue eyed straight haired white man when the Bible took place in the Middle East and Upper Africa...funny how that is. Esp. when the bible says he had skin of copper (not like a penny, but like the old copper pots...) and hair like wool....hmm...wonder why they never taught me that in Sunday school. The Afrocentric Church exist because facts like this are never spoken about in America's Eurocentric culture.
I think you should have spent a bit more time in Sunday school. Nowhere in the Gospels is there a physical description of Christ. The description you are inaccurately describing is in fact from the most symbolic book in the New Testament, Revelations, Chapter 1. It reads in full (emphasis mine):
13And in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks, one like to the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the feet, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 And his head and his hairs were white as white wool and as snow. And his eyes were as a flame of fire: 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as in a burning furnace. And his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars. And from his mouth came out a sharp two-edged sword. And his face was as the sun shineth in his power.
So, the description is not "hair like wool" but hair as white as wool. Not "skin of cooper" but feet like fine brass. You really should understand what it is you are posting.

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And I applaud the hell out of Obama for standing up against Alito...too bad we didn't have more like him. Blind allegiance, again, is not a good thing - and because he has principles and a backbone doesn't make him partisan - it makes him a good man and a great leader.
But it clearly does not make him a paragon of bipartisanship, does it?

If blind allegiance is not a good thing, what would you say about someone who voted with his party 97% of the time?
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      05-15-2008, 08:39 PM   #53
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Racially divisive is not necessarily synonymous with racist so lets try to maintain common terminology. To answer your question, if I formed a church and labeled it Euro-centric, it would in fact be racially divisive. I am not threatened by by an Afrocentric church at all but it clearly is not racially unifying entity. It is in fact exactly the opposite.
You wouldn't have to form a Eurocentric Church - they already are...think about where they came from, think about the few pics in teh Bible that you remember - do they look like the people were from the Middle East and Upper Africa or does it look like the Bible took place in France or England...nice try, but no.


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I think you should have spent a bit more time in Sunday school. Nowhere in the Gospels is there a physical description of Christ. The description you are inaccurately describing is in fact from the most symbolic book in the New Testament, Revelations, Chapter 1. It reads in full (emphasis mine
Spent a lot of time in Sunday School, my father is a retired pastor.

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his head and his hairs were white as white wool and as snow. And his eyes were as a flame of fire: 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as in a burning furnace
Lets think about this...Jesus died young - he most certainly did not have white hair..if you actually know the Bible you would know white describe wisdom. His hair being described as wool would mean like an afro..don't forget that part...and like Brass means it was smooth and clear like Brass..the burned in a furnace is the color descriptor...and what color is that to you?

Even if you take your description literally (which it shouldn't be)- why are there no pictures of Jesus looking like this..a dark skinned man with a snowy white afro? Why does he look like Ted Nugent in most every picture I see? Again nice try, but no.


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If blind allegiance is not a good thing, what would you say about someone who voted with his party 97% of the time?
Umm...because he was voting against Bush and the Repubs - He was doing what the people wanted.
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      05-15-2008, 09:13 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by fedinand View Post
And I applaud the hell out of Obama for standing up against Alito...too bad we didn't have more like him. Blind allegiance, again, is not a good thing - and because he has principles and a backbone doesn't make him partisan - it makes him a good man and a great leader.
Applaud him for not confirming a perfectly fine Justice because he doesn't agree with his views? It doesn't get much more partisan than that.
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      05-15-2008, 09:17 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by fedinand View Post
You wouldn't have to form a Eurocentric Church - they already are...think about where they came from, think about the few pics in teh Bible that you remember - do they look like the people were from the Middle East and Upper Africa or does it look like the Bible took place in France or England...nice try, but no.
Pictures in the Bible? I must have missed those.

The Nicene Creed I recite every week as a profession of faith speaks of a universal, apostolic Church. Very little room there for an anything-centric church there.

The bottom line is as I have said repeatedly, it is NOT a unifying church by any means.


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Spent a lot of time in Sunday School, my father is a retired pastor.
Then you should have paid more attention.

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Lets think about this...Jesus died young - he most certainly did not have white hair..if you actually know the Bible you would know white describe wisdom. His hair being described as wool would mean like an afro..don't forget that part...and like Brass means it was smooth and clear like Brass..the burned in a furnace is the color descriptor...and what color is that to you?

Even if you take your description literally (which it shouldn't be)- why are there no pictures of Jesus looking like this..a dark skinned man with a snowy white afro? Why does he look like Ted Nugent in most every picture I see? Again nice try, but no.
This is a ridiculous discussion. The Book of Revelations is full of symbology and your use of it to state that Christ was black is absurd but lets examine your argument, shall we? You wish to say that, "head and his hairs were white as white wool and as snow," means Christ had black nappy hair. What was the reference to snow? Was His hair cold and wet as well?

As for feet of brass, that would best describe a tanned semitic skin tone.


Quote:
Umm...because he was voting against Bush and the Repubs - He was doing what the people wanted.
So is he a leader or a slave to public opinion?

I guess you have given up on the bipartisan argument?

It is actually quite amusing to watch you tie yourself into these knots of irrationality to justify your support for this empty suit.
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      05-15-2008, 09:18 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by fedinand View Post
Even if you take your description literally (which it shouldn't be)- why are there no pictures of Jesus looking like this..a dark skinned man with a snowy white afro? Why does he look like Ted Nugent in most every picture I see? Again nice try, but no.
It's Revelations, it has nothing to do with what he looked like in human form. Sorry, you fail. ganeil was pointing out that you claimed it as an accurate description of what Christ looked like, you you just contradicted that yourself saying it shouldn't be taken literally.
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Originally Posted by fedinand View Post
the bible says he had skin of copper (not like a penny, but like the old copper pots...) and hair like wool
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Originally Posted by fedinand View Post
Even if you take your description literally (which it shouldn't be)
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Originally Posted by fedinand View Post
Umm...because he was voting against Bush and the Repubs - He was doing what the people wanted.
Was he really? Because his Congress has an even lower approval rating than Bush does.
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      05-15-2008, 09:19 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Hmmm.... that's tough one. How about voting to filibuster the nomination of Justice Alito and then voting not to confirm him? Being one of only 22 senators to vote against the nomination of Chief Justice Roberts? Being only one of 14 senators to vote against a Iraq/Afghanistan funding bill? Barack Obama has been named the most liberal member of the Senate by the National Journal. You do not reach such a lofty position by regularly crossing the aisle.

First of all how do you vote for a filibuster? Do you even know what a filibuster is?

Third and most importantly...You said Barack was one of 14 Senators that voted against the Iraq/Afghanistan bill. Crazy you mention that. Maybe you didn't hear whar the Republicans did today?

How about blocking the Iraq/Afghanistan funding bill! That's right see below.

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/...008-05-15.html

Thank you come again.
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      05-15-2008, 09:21 PM   #58
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Applaud him for not confirming a perfectly fine Justice because he doesn't agree with his views? It doesn't get much more partisan than that.
He was doing what his constituents wanted him to do. The Bush administration is not one where being bipartison helps this country...and Alito is not perfectly fine to most of us.
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      05-15-2008, 09:21 PM   #59
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Second, being one of only 22 Senators? that's 44% of the Senate.
Actually that's 22% of the Senate, do you even know what the Senate is?
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shit, if i had that kind of money id buy a gtstreet for monday, an ascari a10 for tuesday, a DBS for wednesday and id just ride jessica alba the rest of the week.
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      05-15-2008, 09:24 PM   #60
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Actually that's 22% of the Senate, do you even know what the Senate is?
good catch. I'll slow down when I make a post next time
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      05-15-2008, 09:33 PM   #61
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It's Revelations, it has nothing to do with what he looked like in human form. Sorry, you fail. ganeil was pointing out that you claimed it as an accurate description of what Christ looked like, you you just contradicted that yourself saying it shouldn't be taken literally.



Was he really? Because his Congress has an even lower approval rating than Bush does.
My description was in laymen's terms..simply that he had hair similar to wool and dark skin. It is accurate - even when he tries to twist it, it still comes out right. Nice try, but no.

"His congress" just strengthened their majority by picking up two formerly republican strongholds (MS and LA) in the deep south..its not democrats in congress who should be worried...but I'm sure you already know that.
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      05-15-2008, 09:33 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by TMNT View Post
First of all how do you vote for a filibuster? Do you even know what a filibuster is?

Third and most importantly...You said Barack was one of 14 Senators that voted against the Iraq/Afghanistan bill. Crazy you mention that. Maybe you didn't hear whar the Republicans did today?

How about blocking the Iraq/Afghanistan funding bill! That's right see below.

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/...008-05-15.html

Thank you come again.
You vote for a filibuster by voting against cloture.

I used the Iraq/Afghanistan funding bill as an example of his extreme partisanship as he voted against a bill with broad bipartisan support.

The vote today really has no bearing on the matter as it was not the subject matter of the vote that was indicative of Obama's partisanship.

What the Republicans in the House did today was clearly a partisan response to the actions of the Democrat leaderships parliamentary tactics. I have no problem with it because I do not find partisanship to be a bad thing.
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      05-15-2008, 09:40 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by fedinand View Post
My description was in laymen's terms..simply that he had hair similar to wool and dark skin. It is accurate - even when he tries to twist it, it still comes out right. Nice try, but no.

"His congress" just strengthened their majority by picking up two formerly republican strongholds (MS and LA) in the deep south..its not democrats in congress who should be worried...but I'm sure you already know that.
Your description was misleading. "... white as white wool," does not use "wool" as a descriptor of texture but of color. Have you ever actually seen hot brass? It is actually close to golden in color.

You really need to give up on this because you are just digging the hole deeper.

For a guy who claims to value non-partisanship, you seem awfully partisan.
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      05-15-2008, 10:10 PM   #64
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Pictures in the Bible? I must have missed those.

The Nicene Creed I recite every week as a profession of faith speaks of a universal, apostolic Church. Very little room there for an anything-centric church there.

The bottom line is as I have said repeatedly, it is NOT a unifying church by any means.
Actually my first couple of Bibles had pictures - they came with catechism class - it isn't unusual and don't dodge the question, I'm sure you have pictures of Jesus in your church - does he look like someone who lived in the Middle East or Upper Africa...didn't think so.

Afrocentric Churches are not anti-white - just like the civil rights movement was/is not anti-white.


Quote:
This is a ridiculous discussion. The Book of Revelations is full of symbology and your use of it to state that Christ was black is absurd but lets examine your argument, shall we? You wish to say that, "head and his hairs were white as white wool and as snow," means Christ had black nappy hair. What was the reference to snow? Was His hair cold and wet as well?

As for feet of brass, that would best describe a tanned semitic skin tone.
White as snow is often a metaphor for wisdom and pureness....wool well...like a lamb - take it how you want. My intent is not to say Jesus was black, but to point out he definitely doesn't look like he is portrayed in mainstream "white churches" Unless your church has no art - you know what I am talking about - you seem like a smart guy so don't play dumb...and the semitic skin..as burned in a furnace is tan...umm OK

Also mainstream white churches are inherently Eurocentric - no doubt. You don't have to call them Eurocentric any more than saying the US is Eurocentric. So if you say Afrocentric Churches are not unifying, then Eurocentric Churches are also not unifying (please tell me if you have experienced this divisiveness at a Black Afro-Centric Church).

Quote:
So is he a leader or a slave to public opinion?

I guess you have given up on the bipartisan argument?
Not at all - when he is president you will see how he reaches out to the other side..he might even have a job for McCain. A leader stands up to ignorance - like the Bush Administration.

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It is actually quite amusing to watch you tie yourself into these knots of irrationality to justify your support for this empty suit.
I look forward to giving you much more amusement...I can hardly wait
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      05-15-2008, 10:19 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
For a guy who claims to value non-partisanship, you seem awfully partisan.
Yes, I can be - as you are. Pot...kettle...black anyone?

I said Obama was more bipartisan than Hillary - don't twist what I say to fit your argument.
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      05-16-2008, 08:26 AM   #66
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Actually my first couple of Bibles had pictures - they came with catechism class - it isn't unusual and don't dodge the question, I'm sure you have pictures of Jesus in your church - does he look like someone who lived in the Middle East or Upper Africa...didn't think so.

Afrocentric Churches are not anti-white - just like the civil rights movement was/is not anti-white.
The depictions of Christ in my Church and the vast majority of churches I have attended reflect an image consistent with that of a Mizrahi Jew. if you really want to get into this, there is a contemporaneous but unverifiable description of Christ in a letter to Emperor Tiberius from a Roman Consul named Lentulus. He describes Jesus of Nazareth as having:
a noble and lively face, with fair and slightly wavy hair; black and strongly curving eyebrows, intense penetrating blue eyes and an expression of wondrous grace. His nose is rather long. His beard is almost blonde, although not very long. His hair is quite long, and has never seen a pair of scissors…..His neck is slightly inclined, so that he never appears to be bitter or arrogant. His tanned face is the color of ripe corn and well proportioned. It gives the impression of gravity and wisdom, sweetness and good, and is completely lacking in any sign of anger.
This is a fine conversation and an interesting subject but it is completely irrelevant to your assertion that an Afrocentric church is not by definition racially divisive. Since it defines itself in terms of race/ethnicity, how can it also be inclusive?

I will grant you that an Afrocentric church is not necessarily anti-white. It just so happens that the specific one led by Reverend Wright and attended and financed by Barack Obama was and is.

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Also mainstream white churches are inherently Eurocentric - no doubt. You don't have to call them Eurocentric any more than saying the US is Eurocentric. So if you say Afrocentric Churches are not unifying, then Eurocentric Churches are also not unifying (please tell me if you have experienced this divisiveness at a Black Afro-Centric Church).
The Church I attend is Christ-centric. It is a universal church that welcomes every race and creed. It does not define itself as for or against one specific race. The same cannot be said the Afrocentric church in question.

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Not at all - when he is president you will see how he reaches out to the other side..he might even have a job for McCain. A leader stands up to ignorance - like the Bush Administration.
Again, what evidence do you have to support Obama's contention that he is bipartisan? Give me something, anything.
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