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      04-19-2008, 06:10 PM   #23
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Hans, you are officially disallowed from buying the IS-F and making the biggest mistake of your life!!!

I just spent 4.5 hours in my M3--a drive up to Maine--and feel great! Not a harsh ride at all. Perfect DD in my book. EDC works wonders here.

If you are tame, the M3 is tame. If you are aggressive, it turns into a beast. Absolutely two cars in one.

Please don't buy the IS-F. Please...What else do you want me to say?

You're just going through a phase. Get on the track and punish your S2000 some more. It might make help you pass the time...

If you buy the IS-F, I'll find you on whatever IS-F forum you end up registering at and haunt you for life!
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      04-19-2008, 06:20 PM   #24
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Hans, what can I say, I am so disappointed...
+1
The interior shares far too much with the Toyota Camry.,,
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      04-19-2008, 10:21 PM   #25
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+1
The interior shares far too much with the Toyota Camry.,,
+plus the Nav graphics looks mickey mouse chessy

and dont get me started with those hideous metal pedals
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      04-19-2008, 10:26 PM   #26
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Your gut must not realize the M3 has free maintenance, while the IS-F doesn't.

Have fun paying for a full IS-F brake job.
I have my in-house guy handle all my brake work....
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      04-19-2008, 10:32 PM   #27
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If you buy the IS-F, I'll find you on whatever IS-F forum you end up registering at and haunt you for life!

ohhhhh shheeeeet!!!!

No problem. I think I'm OK.

I don't really want an IS-F. I just want a new car.

Sayem3, I did commute in a Civic for a little over 3 years... not again!! Life is too short to drive slow cars -- I know you know that! When I got my Evo 8 I told myself "what were you waiting for?!" ... even though I saved a ton of $ driving that Civic.

I think an M3 plus an Evo X should keep me happy. It will cost me a little more than just running off and buying an IS-F, but I love the "X" and the M3.... so that's what I need to do! Until I have a weak moment and change my mind again......

Waiting sucks!!!!

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      04-20-2008, 03:26 PM   #28
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Lexus' first attempt of dethroning the M3 is admirable. However, one frequent complaint that I've read in the magazines when testing it that it's suspension is downright unpleasant for daily use. It seems that Lexus hasn't quite mastered the black art of that perfect balance between handling and ride like BMW has.

The car's exterior has drawn a lot of flack too, but I rather the IS-F be overdone than continue the blandness of the other Lexus models.
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      04-20-2008, 04:22 PM   #29
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dont do it.

the Lexus:

1. fake fender vents
2. fake exhaust pipes
3. cheesy plastic engine cover
4. No Lim Slip Diff
5. engine out of the LS460
6. engine tuned by Yamaha
7. Nav out of the Prius
8. No manual transmission
9. IS-F has lost every track comparison to date
10. peak torque RPM is way to high (the Lexus engine doesn’t deliver according to CandD)
11. Average age of Lexus owner 60-something. Average age of BMW owner 40-something
12. Its still a Toyota, the General Motors of Japan


Motor Trend on the IS-F sept 2008:steering "really loses sensitivity when honking it"
"but the car understeers heavily at the limit" and the "wheel feels disconnected at that point".
and it "plows hard" when pushed.
and inside "the nav screen and buttons come right out of the Prius".
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      04-20-2008, 06:21 PM   #30
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I remember the time "when Made In Japan" was a joke punch line...

I dont see Detriot laughing now, in fact they are begging to have their Toyota Jobs come here to the States.

Is history repeating itself? Watch your Back Munich, in the Internet Age nothing is sacred anymore.

Good Attempt I'd say for it first try, the Toyota Saga continues... pls stay tuned
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      04-20-2008, 06:34 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck View Post
I think you're right on the money... if I only had the IS-F, I'd be looking for something "fun" to go with it....

What did you think of the IS-F? Reviewers say it has touchy brakes... did you notice that?

ps congrats ase2dais on your choice!
Didn't notice the touchy brakes. It's a nice car (better than most want to give it credit for) but very quiet until you get up over 3500 rpms. The 8 speed transmission works well but it's easy to lose track of what gear you are in. I really didn't like the exterior, the aluminum trim or the dials.

As Lucid says, the M3 is able to change character better. The ISF is very good but not great.

In your case, sounds like you'll need a refined beast (M3 or ISF or C63) and a raw beast (Evo 8 or X) so the one car theory is not going to work.

Resist the temptation. Resist the temptation. Resist the temptation. (Repeat over and over).

PS: ase2dais also got a great color and made the right choice.
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      04-20-2008, 06:42 PM   #32
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Look, I think the OP ought to wait if he can, but this is silly.

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Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
1. fake fender vents
So the one fake hood vent on the M3 is OK? As far as I am concerned, both cars look good, but the 328/335 and IS250/350 each have a cleaner, better look
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2. fake exhaust pipes
How so? The one I examined at the NY auto show had the stainless tips fastened to the rear cap (nice clean look), with the actual pipes ending about two inches forward of the tips, aimed straight down the center of them. Elegant engineering design, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
3. cheesy plastic engine cover
Perhaps so. Is this actually important?

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Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
4. No Lim Slip Diff
Agreed. This is an actual problem, even with software involvment. It's one of the things that soured me on the 335.

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Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
5. engine out of the LS460
I guess I'd have to say advantage Toyota.

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Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
6. engine tuned by Yamaha
Thumbs up from me. Yamaha has a reputation in the industry similar to Porsche in this regard.

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Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
7. Nav out of the Prius
And a very good one it is.

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Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
8. No manual transmission
Yo! You're buying an automatic, remember? (Sorry Swamp.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
9. IS-F has lost every track comparison to date
It's his everyday street ride, remember? His track ride is a ton better than either Lexus or BMW.

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Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
10. peak torque RPM is way to high (the Lexus engine doesn’t deliver according to CandD)
I'd like it to be lower in the range as well, but it sure doesn't leave one wanting for performance, does it. On the road, the torque converter is a real advantage in everyday driving.

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Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
11. Average age of Lexus owner 60-something. Average age of BMW owner 40-something
And this is somehow applicable? You're spending way too many of your firing neurons worried about image.

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Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
12. Its still a Toyota, the General Motors of Japan
Advantage, Toyota. (Other than your precious image, of course.) You know the IS-F will be bulletproof as a daily driver, and you know you're going to know the name of your service advisor's dog before you're done working the kinks out of that new automatic.

I have to say I'm becoming a fan of the new M3, especially the sedan, but the Lexus is still a hell of a good car, and very competitive.

Bruce
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      04-20-2008, 07:12 PM   #33
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So the one fake hood vent on the M3 is OK?
Bruce you know darn well the one is functional and the other is for aesthetics in terms of symmetry which BMW (and many of us) value fairly highly. In other words, yes it is perfectly OK.

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How so? The one I examined at the NY auto show had the stainless tips fastened to the rear cap (nice clean look), with the actual pipes ending about two inches forward of the tips, aimed straight down the center of them. Elegant engineering design, in my opinion.
I use the term "fake" as well as the tips are not part of the actual exhaust system in that they are not attached to it. I would say not elegant engineering, looks bad, more pieces and reminds way to much of big coffee can fart cannons so loved by many Civic aficionados.

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I guess I'd have to say advantage Toyota.
Are you kidding? With as much praise as you and all the press have given the M3 engine you really think the advantage goes to Toyota? Recall the quote, "the finest V8 outside of Maranello"?

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Yo! You're buying an automatic, remember? (Sorry Swamp.)
Keep confusing folks with terminology that is deceiving and less accuarate than possible. You know it is better to call it what it is: an automated manual.

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On the road, the torque converter is a real advantage in everyday driving.
Certainly not compared to a nice AUTOMATED MANUAL like the M-DCT.

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...the Lexus is still a hell of a good car, and very competitive.
Well at least we can find some common ground.
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      04-20-2008, 07:28 PM   #34
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PS: ase2dais also got a great color and made the right choice.
lets hope I can resist the c63 tempatation now


argghhh
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      04-20-2008, 07:44 PM   #35
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maybe you answered your question on why the ISF is there, Sitting and Waiting..... nobody wants it.
There are plenty of M3's on dealer lots as well. I have an IS-F currently but just ordered an M3 Sedan + DCT a few weeks ago. I'll sell you my IS-F!
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      04-20-2008, 08:27 PM   #36
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Bruce you know darn well the one is functional and the other is for aesthetics in terms of symmetry which BMW (and many of us) value fairly highly. In other words, yes it is perfectly OK.
Hey, fake is fake. I think BMW would've made a far better (and more purposeful) engineering and styling statement if they had the balls to stick with a single asymmetric inlet.

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I use the term "fake" as well as the tips are not part of the actual exhaust system in that they are not attached to it. I would say not elegant engineering, looks bad, more pieces and reminds way to much of big coffee can fart cannons so loved by many Civic aficionados.
Y'know, I don't particularly like the placement, size, etc. (I'm not enamored of the four-bys on M cars, either), but love the engineering idea of snuggling them right into the rear cap without having to worry about heat or exhaust system movement. That really is elegant.

Other than in your mind, I am unaware of any engineering rules dictating that an exhaust system must be contiguous or it's fraudulent.

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Are you kidding? With as much praise as you and all the press have given the M3 engine you really think the advantage goes to Toyota? Recall the quote, "the finest V8 outside of Maranello"?
I personally love the idea of that unbelieveable torque curve, but the damned thing is a half-liter short of greatness, in my opinion - at least when installed in something that weighs as much as the M3. Everybody and his brother Sammy has made mention of the part-throttle, everyday driving phenomenon wherein the car comes up a little lacking. This started way back when early drivers found the 335i to be notably more assertive when not really going after it. You and lucid beat them up a bit, but now lucid understands. It's far from fatal, but it's an issue. I'm personally trying to research an off-the-shelf solution that won't cost $10k.

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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Keep confusing folks with terminology that is deceiving and less accuarate than possible. You know it is better to call it what it is: an automated manual.
The trouble with a fair number of smart people is that they think others are dumb. I'm not confusing anybody.

It's fine with me if you want to extol the virtues of a new design in automatic transmissions that is potentially a real step forward, but everyone including you knows that if it doesn't have a clutch pedal and shifts on its own it's clearly an automatic in whatever shape or form.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Certainly not compared to a nice AUTOMATED MANUAL like the M-DCT.
I don't think you have an appreciation for just how magical a good, torque-convertered automatic can be. They smooth the launch in a way that at least the DSG boxes cannot quite do, they multiply torque for that effortless feel in low speed running, and they allow you an additional option as a driver in that you sometimes don't need to downshift because the torque converter does its job, multiplying torque while allowing you that extra 276.5 rpm you need for a straight pull in the current gear.

Bruce
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      04-20-2008, 08:47 PM   #37
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The question really is -- which car would you want if they were both available today? 3 months is nothing.

Availability is not really a big plus unless you need a car today.
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      04-20-2008, 08:48 PM   #38
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lets hope I can resist the c63 tempatation now


argghhh
Resist the temptation. Resist the temptation. Resist the temptation.
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      04-20-2008, 08:54 PM   #39
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Bruce - I've owned both Lexus and BMWs. They are both excellent cars, well above the majority of cars out there. However, BMWs are more sporty while Lexus' are more luxurious (both by design). The ISF is a tremendous car but falls slightly to the luxury side while the BMW M3 falls on the sporty side.

No doubt you can't go wrong with either. Clearly people will make their own choice as has been debated endlessly.

The thread started with Hans and HER wanderlust. She's a knowledgeable car person who probably tracks more than most here. Given her past posts, I think most are suggesting that she will enjoy the BMW more than the ISF. In particular her original post was whether she could live with the ISF alone vs. a BMW + Evo.
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      04-20-2008, 09:01 PM   #40
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I thought the side vents on the ISF where functional, and the M3's engine cover is made of hard plastic as well, isn't. Either way, i honestly don't think it matters that much for either one.


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      04-21-2008, 01:48 AM   #41
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the F fender vents are Fake , as in F= fake, F= Fail. except for the fact that they look ricer like the Fake exhaust tips too.

the M3 engine componant you see in the above pic, for the uneduacated (GGB are you here?) is called an intake plenum and it is functional, it covers 8, yes count them, 8 intake throttles, something you will not see on the IS-Fake. its not a Fake cover like on the Failing ISF.
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      04-21-2008, 01:52 AM   #42
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I'd bet that neither the IS-F not M3 engine covers are "plastic" per se. Well if you call CFRP plastic then I guess you could call these plastic as well. I'd be they are fiber reinforced composites, much like CFRP with much cheaper fibers, chopped/short fibers in random orientations. The best term to use is composite (if my suspucions are correct).
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      04-21-2008, 02:13 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Y'know, I don't particularly like the placement, size, etc. (I'm not enamored of the four-bys on M cars, either), but love the engineering idea of snuggling them right into the rear cap without having to worry about heat or exhaust system movement. That really is elegant.
This design could have more engineering than meets the eye but the significant growth of the system is not subverted by separating the tips out in the bumper cover. It simply moves the problem to another location.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Other than in your mind, I am unaware of any engineering rules dictating that an exhaust system must be contiguous or it's fraudulent.
If you check the definiton of fake you will find many concepts including: deceptive, to make more attractive, etc. In my opinion and in the opinion of countless others who have chimed in on the topic fake is an appropriate word. Sure it does not mean they are not real - they certainly exist. One particularly fake thing about them is the oval shape of the "tips". The actual pipes are round and the tips are oval. The similarities between fake bolt on style tips or other fake body integrated tips available in some hideous body kits and this system are too great to let pass without note.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
I personally love the idea of that unbelieveable torque curve, but the damned thing is a half-liter short of greatness, in my opinion - at least when installed in something that weighs as much as the M3. Everybody and his brother Sammy has made mention of the part-throttle, everyday driving phenomenon wherein the car comes up a little lacking. This started way back when early drivers found the 335i to be notably more assertive when not really going after it. You and lucid beat them up a bit, but now lucid understands. It's far from fatal, but it's an issue. I'm personally trying to research an off-the-shelf solution that won't cost $10k.
This is something voiced by a very small minority (a couple folks at best) rather than "everybody and his brother". Exaggeration much? I would like to ask Lucid if he "understands". Last I heard I thought his conclusion was still that the numbers do not support that conclusion. Do let us know when you re-engineeer this crucial fatal flaw of the M3s engine. The boys in Garching will be watching your every move.

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It's fine with me if you want to extol the virtues of a new design in automatic transmissions that is potentially a real step forward, but everyone including you knows that if it doesn't have a clutch pedal and shifts on its own it's clearly an automatic in whatever shape or form.
Strongly disagree. In fact I'll make a poll on this just to see what folks think. You should also state the whole truth rather than a part truth that supports your already weak case. The M-DCT HAS THE OPTION to shift on its own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
I don't think you have an appreciation for just how magical a good, torque-convertered automatic can be. They smooth the launch in a way that at least the DSG boxes cannot quite do, they multiply torque for that effortless feel in low speed running, and they allow you an additional option as a driver in that you sometimes don't need to downshift because the torque converter does its job, multiplying torque while allowing you that extra 276.5 rpm you need for a straight pull in the current gear.
I don't deny some benefits of torque converter automatics. However, the increase in losses, massive increase in complexity and extra weight are a few of the big down sides.
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      04-21-2008, 05:35 AM   #44
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I thought the side vents on the ISF where functional, and the M3's engine cover is made of hard plastic as well, isn't. Either way, i honestly don't think it matters that much for either one.


they are both functional, the first are pass thru vent for the brake cooling, and rear exhaust are four independent functional tailpipes, theres nothing fake on cars that are in the $60+ price tag
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