BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Suspension | Brakes | Chassis
 
Steve Thomas BMW
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      08-13-2014, 02:50 PM   #1
GTB/ZR-1
Lieutenant
GTB/ZR-1's Avatar
6
Rep
514
Posts

Drives: Pending...
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Central, FL

iTrader: (15)

DE setup (stock ZCP susp/camber plates/front bar/square) DD camber question, too

Getting my car prepped & starting this fall (needs to cool off!)...

I'm looking to run the setup in my title, for now. I believe the front bar will effectively stabilize the rear, so I can run a square tire setup with impunity lol. I'm thinking this setup should perform nicely. Thoughts? Bar suggestions?

The car is my DD, and my main question/concern are the camber plates.

Seeing that I'll be driving (and leaving my truck & trailer home), I'd like to adjust the plates when I get there, then return to street setting before I leave.
Sounds simple enough, but how sensitive is the toe adjustment & will I throw it off completely, every time I adjust?

I really would rather not have to do an alignment @ the shop after every event.

What are those with camber plates doing as a solution?

TIA, all...
__________________
* '11.75 E90/DCT LMB--DE Weapon
* '06 Mitsu Evo MR SCCA Solo Weapon
* '09 Nissan GT-R (Gone)
* '90 ZR-1 (Fast)
Appreciate 0
      08-13-2014, 02:55 PM   #2
slicer
Brigadier General
slicer's Avatar
76
Rep
4,041
Posts

Drives: '13 E92 M3
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (20)

Excerpt from a current thread in track section:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1022360

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebringjetta View Post
kw cs 2.0 front and rear. rear toe .2 . i try and get an alignment one time every other month. i track 2 times a month and with all the other additional cost there is no way to do an alignment for every track day.
In the front I run camber of -2.0 on the street but go up to -2.8 on the track. I still see outside tire wear (but far less than when I kept my camber at -2.0). I would think more camber would help with front end grip thereby reducing under-steer. MRF has set up my suspension to have something like 0 toe at -2.0 and adjusting camber adds some toe... or subtracts; can't remember. I don't perform an alignment when adjusting my camber. Since your car is primarily used on the track, I would consider setting up your suspension with -2.8ish (or more) and just leave it...

FWIW I'm running staggered wheels / tires and was actually experiencing over-steer on my last track day... but I had just added adjustable sways and ran with Euro MDM for the first time. The sway bars introduced another level of suspension tuning which is more than I honestly need...
__________________
'13 M3 - Silverstone II - Sold
'04 M3 - Jet Black - BBS E88, KW Clubsports
Appreciate 0
      08-13-2014, 02:58 PM   #3
slicer
Brigadier General
slicer's Avatar
76
Rep
4,041
Posts

Drives: '13 E92 M3
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (20)

FWIW - most camber plates increase ride height. I would recommend just buying KW Clubsports or one of the other great coilover systems available vs screwing around with your OEM suspension. You will inevitably want to make that upgrade if you track the car. You are kidding yourself if you don't believe that to be true...
__________________
'13 M3 - Silverstone II - Sold
'04 M3 - Jet Black - BBS E88, KW Clubsports
Appreciate 0
      08-13-2014, 03:08 PM   #4
M3 Esq
Colonel
M3 Esq's Avatar
United_States
27
Rep
2,047
Posts

Drives: M3, 335i, X5
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CT

iTrader: (6)

You'll get a lot of different opinions on this. I am running Vorshlag camber plates with a compromised track/street setup -2.4 camber F, -1.9 R and 1/16 toe in all 4 corners. My shop advised against adjusting camber at the track as it with throw off the toe too much.

I've only had the car out for 1 track day since the install and the car felt good with less push than stock on certian turns I would nromally feel it. I still feel like I could use a little more camber up front as I was still getting some understeer, but I just adjusted my turn-in a bit.

BTW my ride height didn't change.
Appreciate 0
      08-13-2014, 03:11 PM   #5
M3 Esq
Colonel
M3 Esq's Avatar
United_States
27
Rep
2,047
Posts

Drives: M3, 335i, X5
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CT

iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by slicer View Post
FWIW - most camber plates increase ride height. I would recommend just buying KW Clubsports or one of the other great coilover systems available vs screwing around with your OEM suspension. You will inevitably want to make that upgrade if you track the car. You are kidding yourself if you don't believe that to be true...
I've already decided to upgrade to Clubsports.
Appreciate 0
      08-13-2014, 03:14 PM   #6
slicer
Brigadier General
slicer's Avatar
76
Rep
4,041
Posts

Drives: '13 E92 M3
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Esq View Post
I've already decided to upgrade to Clubsports.
It was inevitable
__________________
'13 M3 - Silverstone II - Sold
'04 M3 - Jet Black - BBS E88, KW Clubsports
Appreciate 0
      08-13-2014, 03:41 PM   #7
GTB/ZR-1
Lieutenant
GTB/ZR-1's Avatar
6
Rep
514
Posts

Drives: Pending...
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Central, FL

iTrader: (15)

Slicer--informative posts, as usual--thx.

I'd use GC plates. Super-high quality & non-lifting & a hat change away (when) the C/Os magically show up at my door... lol

You mentioned primarily track-focused above, but it's the opposite--probably only 8-10 events/year of use.

Thx to Esquire above, as well. Good stuff--keep it coming!
Appreciate 0
      08-13-2014, 04:15 PM   #8
M3 Esq
Colonel
M3 Esq's Avatar
United_States
27
Rep
2,047
Posts

Drives: M3, 335i, X5
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CT

iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by slicer View Post
It was inevitable
I hate the way the front looks now at stock ride height and all of that negative camber. The fender gap looks terrible and the wheels look pushed in. I want it dumped LOL!
Appreciate 0
      08-13-2014, 04:21 PM   #9
slicer
Brigadier General
slicer's Avatar
76
Rep
4,041
Posts

Drives: '13 E92 M3
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTB/ZR-1 View Post
Slicer--informative posts, as usual--thx.

I'd use GC plates. Super-high quality & non-lifting & a hat change away (when) the C/Os magically show up at my door... lol

You mentioned primarily track-focused above, but it's the opposite--probably only 8-10 events/year of use.

Thx to Esquire above, as well. Good stuff--keep it coming!
You are welcome. One thing to keep in mind is that some coil-over systems (like KW clubsports) come with camber plates. So you may not have a need for your GC plates. Coil-overs are definitely overkill for street use but honestly they work very well on the street (I honestly don't think my car is any more uncomfortable with coil-overs than it was with the OEM suspension). The only challenge I find is driving the car at a reduced ride height / ground clearance.
__________________
'13 M3 - Silverstone II - Sold
'04 M3 - Jet Black - BBS E88, KW Clubsports
Appreciate 0
      08-14-2014, 12:59 AM   #10
PrimeBMW
Captain
PrimeBMW's Avatar
No_Country
14
Rep
828
Posts

Drives: E46 M3+S62, E92 M3
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Portland, OR

iTrader: (0)

I would recommend you set the camber and leave it. My "street" camber is -2.2 in the front. This is as positive as I can go with GC camber plates and comp package. You might be able go to around -2.8 without too much inner tire wear. Just run front pressure up to ~38 cold on the street.
BTW KW club sports are fair to good with some limitations. There are better options.
Appreciate 0
      08-14-2014, 01:34 AM   #11
slicer
Brigadier General
slicer's Avatar
76
Rep
4,041
Posts

Drives: '13 E92 M3
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimeBMW View Post
BTW KW club sports are fair to good with some limitations. There are better options.
What are the limitations, what other options do you recommend(in the same price range), and why?
__________________
'13 M3 - Silverstone II - Sold
'04 M3 - Jet Black - BBS E88, KW Clubsports

Last edited by slicer; 08-14-2014 at 01:44 AM.
Appreciate 0
      08-14-2014, 12:33 PM   #12
PrimeBMW
Captain
PrimeBMW's Avatar
No_Country
14
Rep
828
Posts

Drives: E46 M3+S62, E92 M3
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Portland, OR

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by slicer
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimeBMW View Post
BTW KW club sports are fair to good with some limitations. There are better options.
What are the limitations, what other options do you recommend(in the same price range), and why?
Sure. I didn't realize the KW club sports were camber challenged till just recently. We have seen a few examples here on the forum and just asked my race shop about max camber they got on a well know forum car. The ride height was low and only got -2.5 in the front. That might be fine for a dual duty car and or beginner/intermediate driver but not enough for my needs.
Then there is the front wheel/tire clearance that makes it difficult to run a square set up. The above car moved to MCS doubles in part to get passed these limitations.
I would rather run a MCS single adj. than KW cs. You would have none of the above issues and a race quality product. If I was in the market I would also look into JRZ but my knowledge is limited with regards to their products.
Disclaimer: I have the first MCS triples put out for an e46 m3.
Appreciate 0
      08-14-2014, 12:40 PM   #13
GTB/ZR-1
Lieutenant
GTB/ZR-1's Avatar
6
Rep
514
Posts

Drives: Pending...
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Central, FL

iTrader: (15)

I had MCS Singles on my former Solo-prepped FR-S--FANTASTIC quality damper...
Anybody have some used ones for sale, yet? lol
Appreciate 0
      08-14-2014, 01:00 PM   #14
slicer
Brigadier General
slicer's Avatar
76
Rep
4,041
Posts

Drives: '13 E92 M3
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimeBMW View Post
Sure. I didn't realize the KW club sports were camber challenged till just recently. We have seen a few examples here on the forum and just asked my race shop about max camber they got on a well know forum car. The ride height was low and only got -2.5 in the front. That might be fine for a dual duty car and or beginner/intermediate driver but not enough for my needs.
Then there is the front wheel/tire clearance that makes it difficult to run a square set up. The above car moved to MCS doubles in part to get passed these limitations.
I would rather run a MCS single adj. than KW cs. You would have none of the above issues and a race quality product. If I was in the market I would also look into JRZ but my knowledge is limited with regards to their products.
Disclaimer: I have the first MCS triples put out for an e46 m3.
Thanks for the info!

I wouldn't say KW's are camber challenged. I'm getting -2.8 which is limited by the shock tower opening. I could get well into the -3.5 range (or more) if I dropped the top hat down to adjust. MCS single adjustable are still going to be more expensive than KW's (by the time you add in camber plates, spring perches, etc.). As far as tire clearance... I agree that is a PIA. I ended up solving that problem by swapping in 30mm shorter Eibach springs; problem solved but it cost an extra $200 to achieve. Lastly my experience on "race quality" dampers is that they need to be refirbished relatively often. Is that the case with the MCS? I'm not saying KW's are the best, but I am saying they are a very cost effective plug and play solution (all parts including camber plates included) that seems to be very durable. Well with the exception of the adjustable spring perch set screws which like to strip out... I would definitely run MCS and/or JRZ as I know they are great products. KW Clubsport 2-way's are just tough to beat in the $3k price point.

I have the 3-way version which retails for $5600.... that put me into a higher price realm where JRZ and MCS plays. I have been happy with my suspension but would definitely be open to the other more race oriented options. That being said, I would also consider the KW competition products which are more directly comparable.
__________________
'13 M3 - Silverstone II - Sold
'04 M3 - Jet Black - BBS E88, KW Clubsports

Last edited by slicer; 08-15-2014 at 12:34 PM.
Appreciate 0
      08-14-2014, 02:32 PM   #15
M3SQRD
Colonel
M3SQRD's Avatar
United_States
27
Rep
2,497
Posts

Drives: E92 M3s,R56 CooperS,F22 228iX
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: EC

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by slicer View Post
Lastly my experience on "race quality" dampers is that they need to be refirbished relatively often. Is that the case with the MCS?
No, MCS dampers are very durable and do not need to be rebuilt frequently. Unlike Ohlins R&T dampers which do not contain any of their race damper internals and need to be rebuilt after only 15k street miles, MCS dampers will give you >> 15k street AND track miles. I'm running Ohlins R&T dampers on my Mini Cooper S and after only 10k street miles there was a significant drop off in performance. Sad.
Appreciate 0
      08-14-2014, 04:12 PM   #16
Richbot
Colonel
50
Rep
2,267
Posts

Drives: Jerez Black E90
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: STL

iTrader: (2)

My MCS remote doubles have nearly 30,000 street miles on them. No signs of any problems. Haven't had to change adjustments for street use etc. Hold nitrogen pressure very well too, I have yet to need to top one off.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      08-14-2014, 04:56 PM   #17
M3SQRD
Colonel
M3SQRD's Avatar
United_States
27
Rep
2,497
Posts

Drives: E92 M3s,R56 CooperS,F22 228iX
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: EC

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
My MCS remote doubles have nearly 30,000 street miles on them. No signs of any problems. Haven't had to change adjustments for street use etc. Hold nitrogen pressure very well too, I have yet to need to top one off.
Awesome I'm about to install a set of MCS 2-way-remote dampers on my e92 M3.

Another advantage to MCS dampers is you can upgrade a MCS 1-way internal-reservoir damper to a 2- or 3-way remote-reservoir damper.
Appreciate 0
      08-14-2014, 07:06 PM   #18
slicer
Brigadier General
slicer's Avatar
76
Rep
4,041
Posts

Drives: '13 E92 M3
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3SQRD View Post
Another advantage to MCS dampers is you can upgrade a MCS 1-way internal-reservoir damper to a 2- or 3-way remote-reservoir damper.
Really? That's awesome. I love when companies make their products upgradable.
__________________
'13 M3 - Silverstone II - Sold
'04 M3 - Jet Black - BBS E88, KW Clubsports
Appreciate 0
      08-15-2014, 10:16 AM   #19
M3SQRD
Colonel
M3SQRD's Avatar
United_States
27
Rep
2,497
Posts

Drives: E92 M3s,R56 CooperS,F22 228iX
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: EC

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by slicer View Post
Really? That's awesome. I love when companies make their products upgradable.
Yep. They also give you full credit for the dampers you've already purchased so the price to upgrade is the difference between the price of the dampers you're upgrading to and the original price you paid for the current dampers.
Appreciate 0
      08-15-2014, 11:24 AM   #20
Richbot
Colonel
50
Rep
2,267
Posts

Drives: Jerez Black E90
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: STL

iTrader: (2)

Which is also a good deal for them because the price to upgrade in t&m is way lower the the cost delta. But nice they credit you I agree.

One more note on MCS. I bought these things 2.5 years ago and service after the sale is as good today as the day I bought them. The upside of a small nimble US company selling an expensive specialty product to a small and interconnected market. Downside is if they don't stick around you have very expensive custom stuff with no support from the OEM. But so far they seem to have staying power. Jrz and kW seem to have a little more provenance f that's important to you but the proof in the pudding is in the tasting and mines pretty tasty
__________________
Appreciate 0
      08-15-2014, 01:04 PM   #21
PrimeBMW
Captain
PrimeBMW's Avatar
No_Country
14
Rep
828
Posts

Drives: E46 M3+S62, E92 M3
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Portland, OR

iTrader: (0)

I almost feel like I should shut up because everyone is doing such a great job of supporting MCS. But I have a few points that are also relevant:
MCS singles are the spec suspension for the new spec e46 racing class.
IMSA has opened up and allowed MCS. I have heard that a large percentage are switching out their AST for MCS. I don’t know if this is just ST and GS or all classes.

Like others I have had zero issues with my MCS triples (track only). But bottom line they perform! They allow you to do things others can't.
Appreciate 0
      08-15-2014, 01:07 PM   #22
PrimeBMW
Captain
PrimeBMW's Avatar
No_Country
14
Rep
828
Posts

Drives: E46 M3+S62, E92 M3
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Portland, OR

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTB/ZR-1 View Post
I had MCS Singles on my former Solo-prepped FR-S--FANTASTIC quality damper...
Anybody have some used ones for sale, yet? lol
Used for sale! That would be the ticket! I would gladly pay for new if my e92 m3 was my primary track car but for me it doesn't make much since to spend money on a second car.......but I would buy used!
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:32 PM.




m3post
m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST