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      04-07-2008, 07:16 PM   #1
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The New M3 vs the New RS4/RS5 Question...

Just wanted to get some people's opinions.

The old RS4 was considered a real beast. When the M3 was gone, the RS4 was "the car to beat" Now that the RS4 is gone the M3 is the "car to beat"

When the RS4 or even the RS5 comes back, which one do you think will be best in comparos?

I'm sure Audi has something up their sleeve..
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      04-07-2008, 07:29 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
Just wanted to get some people's opinions.

The old RS4 was considered a real beast. When the M3 was gone, the RS4 was "the car to beat" Now that the RS4 is gone the M3 is the "car to beat"

When the RS4 or even the RS5 comes back, which one do you think will be best in comparos?

I'm sure Audi has something up their sleeve..

Audi is up and coming for sure, but as a 20 year audi driver, I'm now a BMW person. Audi has great cars, but they are heavy and not as well balanced as the BMW's. As long as the engine is ahead of the front axle, the Audi's will suffer. (the R8 is definitely the exception).

I'll probably get the new M3 DCT after driving the new M5 over 70,000 miles. It's all about how the parts work together as a whole.
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      04-07-2008, 08:02 PM   #3
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Audi is up and coming for sure, but as a 20 year audi driver, I'm now a BMW person. Audi has great cars, but they are heavy and not as well balanced as the BMW's. As long as the engine is ahead of the front axle, the Audi's will suffer. (the R8 is definitely the exception).

I'll probably get the new M3 DCT after driving the new M5 over 70,000 miles. It's all about how the parts work together as a whole.
Maybe I'm wrong but I thought the new A/S/4/5 platform has the engine behind the front axle? I definitely know it has been moved back to help the dive-in that was so annoying on the last series.
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      04-07-2008, 08:12 PM   #4
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Maybe I'm wrong but I thought the new A/S/4/5 platform has the engine behind the front axle? I definitely know it has been moved back to help the dive-in that was so annoying on the last series.
it's not behind, maybe moved back a few inches but still ~60% front weight distribution.
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      04-07-2008, 09:44 PM   #5
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Should be a close battle between RS4/5 and M3 - especially if Audi can find a way to put an updated version of a dual-clutch transmission inside. Seems that although the weight distribution is improved with the new A4/S5, still not quite as good of balance as M3. I know that Fifth Gear did a track comparo of the S5 v. 335i and the 335i edged it out just barely, despite a 60 hp deficit. Unless Audi makes a significant number of modifications to the RS5 or new RS4 over the S5, seems the M3 (particularly with M DCT) will still have a slight edge.
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      04-07-2008, 10:10 PM   #6
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The new A4 got such a good review, I was just amazed at how good of a review the A4/S5 got. ADH you said you have been an Audi guy. What makes the difference in the BMW? And what do you think will be the downfall of the new RS model that comes out to compete with the M3?

With the intro of the RS6... Comparo's were going absolutely CRAZY, I'm thinking they'll do the same for the upcoming RS model that will compete and dare I say take down the M3. The M3 has been the benchmark for so many years, I'd hate to see it go down.
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      04-08-2008, 12:14 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
The old RS4 was considered a real beast. When the M3 was gone, the RS4 was "the car to beat" Now that the RS4 is gone the M3 is the "car to beat"
What ????? it is not gone at all. Just got back from the Audi dealer today. He had the 2008 RS4 cabriolet in the showroom. One very very nice car. It had the black leather with edge piping white recaro seats. The attention to detail and built quality is visible everywhere and on any single part under the hood. I testdrove the E92 M3 one week ago but this looks and feels more strongly built. I am not saying the M3 isn't but the RS4 built quality is absolute perfection it is stricking when you see it.

But I do not want the RS4 cabriolet. I discussed details for ordering the RS4 sedan which now has standard bluetooth, standard satellite radio for 2008. DVD based live navigation and SD card insert for MP3 audio are new options. I am about to get it new for almost invoice (dead serious). That should blow your bubble that the RS4 is gone it is still a living beast with a 8250 rpm redline, 90% of peak torque (307 lb.ft) available from 2250 to 7000 RPM.
Compare this with the E92 90% peak of torque (266 lb.ft) available from 2550 to 8200 RPM but take instead 90% of the RS4 max torque and the M3 never gets that much torque. The Audi RS4 curb weight is 1680 Kg the M3 curb weight is 1655Kg. Overal the M3 does not seem to have the advantage. I prefer the RS4 engine sound (that one button makes it even better) and really was not impressed by the M3 premium audio while the RS4 Bose audio sounded better. I should be able to testdrive it next time. The dials do look better on the M3, I like the RS4 car front better than the M3 but then I like the M3 back better than the RS4. They are quite different cars both very good.

Last edited by oneginee; 04-08-2008 at 12:34 AM.
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      04-08-2008, 12:56 AM   #8
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On the RS4

I own a 2007 RS4. A service manager confirmed that Audi only produces one RS model at a time. So when the RS6 comes out the RS4 is history.That means the RS5 is a long way from production. So don't expect any serious changes in the RS4.

The RS4 is a very reassuring "beast". I have never really felt that rush being on the edge while pushing it hard. As much as every one wants to compare the RS4 to the M3 they each offer a very different driving experences. If you want a fast car that will keep you safe buy the RS4, if you want to be thrilled by your car buy the M3. I am just not getting what I need from the Audi and I doubt any AWD auto will, except maybe the GT-R R35.
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      04-08-2008, 01:05 AM   #9
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I own a 2007 RS4. A service manager confirmed that Audi only produces one RS model at a time. So when the RS6 comes out the RS4 is history.That means the RS5 is a long way from production. So don't expect any serious changes in the RS4.

i've heard a bunch of people say this that audi only produces one RS at a time. i am pretty sure they are about to break that rule with the TT-RS which is coming in late 2009/2010. if i'm not mistaken, the new A4 has been debuted, so it will be a few years before we see a new RS4. that's my guess anyway.
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      04-08-2008, 01:53 AM   #10
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You are correct that Audi is moving to parallel production on RS cars. The Audi production schedule was leaked recently. A google search will show how the cars will roll out over the next three years and there is definitely overlap on the RS' models.
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      04-08-2008, 02:47 AM   #11
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HKZ786,

Might know more than me but I have heard that next year will see the RS5 debuting after that we will see the TT-RS in the same year with the RS4 some time in 2010. That means we will see a total of five models being produced at the same time.

RS6 Avant and Saloon,
RS5
TT-RS
R8 and R8v10
RS4.

Sounds incredible that Audi can up production by such an amount in such a short space of time but who knows, certainly not me.
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      04-08-2008, 09:11 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oneginee View Post
That should blow your bubble that the RS4 is gone it is still a living beast with a 8250 rpm redline, 90% of peak torque (307 lb.ft) available from 2250 to 7000 RPM.
Compare this with the E92 90% peak of torque (266 lb.ft) available from 2550 to 8200 RPM but take instead 90% of the RS4 max torque and the M3 never gets that much torque.
If you take the 8200 RPM (for 90% peak torque) for the M3 and divide by the 7000 RPM (for 90% peak torque) for the RS4 you get a ratio of 1.17. If you applied a gear with that ratio to the M3 engine the 90% peak torque range from 2550 to 8200 would shift to 2179 to 7008 RPM. But the torque over that range would go from 266 to 311. That's why the M3 and RS4 engines are functionally similar. No matter how you gear it either car can have a wider torque plateau or a higher torque plateau but not both. From a performance standpoint both wider and higher can be equally valuable and it's just a question of applying the "correct" gearing to get what you want.

Quote:
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The Audi RS4 curb weight is 1680 Kg the M3 curb weight is 1655Kg. Overal the M3 does not seem to have the advantage.
Yes, the Audi weights more, that and the similar engine specs is one reason the Audi is at a *slightly* disadvantage. Suspension and weight distribution are the others.

I never did drive the Audi but after looking at it I wasn't impressed. The $4,500 price delta was the first thing I noticed and I never checked to see what sort of deal you could get. I think I'm the only one in the world but the interior didn't feel right for that price. Just two color choices and the center area seems weak with a little cup where the shifter goes and those plastic arms trailing down from the center dash console to the center floor console. The nav way down low also bothered me, if I'm going to have nav I want the display where I can glance at it quickly not where I have to look way down low in the cabin (and take my eyes off the road longer).

Nonetheless performance wise the two cars are very close (for non-professional drivers) and interior design appreciation is very subjective. With steeper price cuts the RS4 is functionally a very similar car. I hope you enjoy yours just don't buy because of the performance advantage, it isn't there.
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      04-08-2008, 09:28 AM   #13
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I did drive an RS4 and frankily, I was not that impressed with it. It felt cumbersome and heavy to me...but keep in mind what I drive. When I drove the E92, I did notice the weight, but it felt much lighter than the RS4 to me.

Although I thought the RS4 was just ok, I bet the next gen of RS cars will be pretty kick ass. Everybody is always up'ing the bar, so you can bet that they will make a car to compete with the M.
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      04-08-2008, 09:44 AM   #14
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I did drive an RS4 and frankily, I was not that impressed with it. It felt cumbersome and heavy to me...but keep in mind what I drive. When I drove the E92, I did notice the weight, but it felt much lighter than the RS4 to me.

Although I thought the RS4 was just ok, I bet the next gen of RS cars will be pretty kick ass. Everybody is always up'ing the bar, so you can bet that they will make a car to compete with the M.
pretty sure it will be a faster car ... the Audi that is ...
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      04-08-2008, 09:58 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GT3 Tim View Post
I did drive an RS4 and frankily, I was not that impressed with it. It felt cumbersome and heavy to me...but keep in mind what I drive. When I drove the E92, I did notice the weight, but it felt much lighter than the RS4 to me.

Although I thought the RS4 was just ok, I bet the next gen of RS cars will be pretty kick ass. Everybody is always up'ing the bar, so you can bet that they will make a car to compete with the M.
I know exactly what you mean by this, it's partly the awd setup and partly the extra weight over the nose, things have improved which I can vouch for with the S5. If you had ever driven a S4 then you would know that the RS4 was a world of difference, my opinion is the S5 is very close in feel and grip at the front to that of the RS4, proving things are getting better if not quite as good as the current M3. Though I do reckon that the next RS4 and RS5 will be at least as good in the areas of nimbleness and feel as the M3 is but with bags more poke and the added security of awd.

But will we ever see an M car supporting awd, that is the question. Some members may turn their nose up at such an idea but there has been talk of this very thing being offered along side the standard rwd version.
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      04-08-2008, 12:29 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdh View Post
Audi is up and coming for sure, but as a 20 year audi driver, I'm now a BMW person. Audi has great cars, but they are heavy and not as well balanced as the BMW's. As long as the engine is ahead of the front axle, the Audi's will suffer. (the R8 is definitely the exception).

I'll probably get the new M3 DCT after driving the new M5 over 70,000 miles. It's all about how the parts work together as a whole.
This is a very interesting comment coming from an experienced Audi driver. I have never owned an Audi but from comments I have heard the quality is not on the same level as BMW. It has improved but still you hear complaints about malfunctions.
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      04-08-2008, 12:54 PM   #17
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the RS5 should be a hoot... but many enthusiasts and track drivers would go for the rear wheel drive m3 over the all wheel drive audi which would probably show more understeer in hard cornering.
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      04-08-2008, 01:16 PM   #18
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Audi are raising there game (who isnt..porsche?).

Considering how well the RS4 and R8 were recieved i'd say the RS5 will have colossal performance.

The only question is pricing. If they choose to equip it with a V8 then its main competitor (and price range) will be the M3. If they choose a V10 then its in that weird limbo area between M3 and M6.

Im not sure which i'd prefer. In some respects im glad UK dealers still dont have MDCT models to test drive. I'd like to wait for more info regarding the RS5 before i commit either way.

Waiting for the perfect V8 (or maybe V10
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      04-08-2008, 01:31 PM   #19
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This is a very interesting comment coming from an experienced Audi driver. I have never owned an Audi but from comments I have heard the quality is not on the same level as BMW. It has improved but still you hear complaints about malfunctions.
Come on, don't be a twat. Audi's quality is not in question, maybe their dynamics isn't up to that of BMW's not you are totally wrong to think their quality isn't there.

I have also owned Audis off and on for almost 20 years and they have always performed as expected.
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      04-08-2008, 04:34 PM   #20
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Come on, don't be a twat. Audi's quality is not in question, maybe their dynamics isn't up to that of BMW's not you are totally wrong to think their quality isn't there.

I have also owned Audis off and on for almost 20 years and they have always performed as expected.
A friend of mine bought the R8 and he's very pissed because after only 2 weeks of delivery the A/C was not cooling and then one day he could'nt start the car, so to the Dealer for 2 weeks. COME ON!!
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      04-08-2008, 04:43 PM   #21
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pancho,

Myself and my brother both had Traction Control failure on our 535i BMWs within three weeks of each other. Does that mean all BMWs are crap, no it just means we had bad luck or a batch of faulty parts.

As you can see it hasn't stopped me buying another BMW, nor did it stop the brother who has had 5 since then.

As the man says 'shit happens'.
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      04-08-2008, 04:48 PM   #22
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pancho,

Myself and my brother both had Traction Control failure on our 535i BMWs within three weeks of each other. Does that mean all BMWs are crap, no it just means we had bad luck or a batch of faulty parts.

As you can see it hasn't stopped me buying another BMW, nor did it stop the brother who has had 5 since then.

As the man says 'shit happens'.
I agree Footie but in general I have heard more negative comments from Audi owners than BMW owners.
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