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      04-07-2008, 07:46 PM   #23
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My point precisely, none of us like taxes, but my feeling is that if you can afford a $70K car that eats up gas, then we shouldn’t mind paying a bit more taxes!!!! And, well, the US Government does a generally good job of spending your taxes!!! Unlike some others!!!!
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      04-07-2008, 09:42 PM   #24
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For me the point is not the gas guzzler tax. That is a one time bill that is paid for and done with....good bye and good riddance. The point is, BMWs disingenuous practice of cooking the numbers and false advertising proclaiming to the world their efficient dynamics, blah blah blah. The M3 is dynamic but is frankly one of the most inefficient high performance engines available, especially given the newness of it's motor development.

IMO, BMW made a major mistake in not developing DFI for the M3's 4 litre. I know it is a high revving motor and a difficult engineering achievement, but they could have done it rather than going the cost saving route by basically lopping off 2 cylinders from the V10. I would have been willing to wait 6 more months for DFI development and would have gladly payed a couple thousand more for the R&D to enjoy it's benefits, one of which would of been a nice bump in horsepower. BMW have done a great job with the DFI 335 power plant, which is clearly one of the most powerful, yet fuel efficient motors in it's class. BMW has always been known for their power to efficiency ratio of their engines, that is a major reason why I have been so enamored with their power plants for so long.

This philosophy started to change with the development of the V10. Horsepower and red line were all that mattered at the expense of torque and fuel efficiency.

To make the argument that if one can afford a 70 k car then one can afford the gas is ridiculous on so many levels. It totally misses the point. I may be alone on this but when I compare high performance power plants, I compare horsepower, torque, weight, efficiency and red line. High scores in all areas is what separates great engineering from good engineering.
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      04-07-2008, 11:19 PM   #25
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Ruff,
Agree with your view on BMW taking the short-cut route by using much of the V-10 and avoiding the DFI. It feels to me like a corporate (aka produce the most with the least investment) decision. Certainly fuel efficiency is a bigger deal today than it was a few years ago when the V-10 was being developed, but it had to be compelling to use the V-10 components in developing the V-8.
However, I still believe the new powerplant is a helluva motor. I also am anxiously awaiting to see the fuel comsumption of a broken-in M3 with DKG. My guess is that the car will beat the fuel consumption of its direct competition, as it has been doing with the performance numbers and track times.
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      04-07-2008, 11:26 PM   #26
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Here's the worst part - It's not faster either!
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      04-08-2008, 09:58 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Ther is nothing wrong with wanting:

-less taxes
-spend less on gas
-as much of an environmentally sound car as possible
-true delivery of BMWs "Efficient Dynamics" blending performance with efficiency
-great engineering which CAN lead to Efficient Dynamics

These are not inconsistent with wanting a high performance car.
Exactly SWAMP!!!! I know people are going to flame me but in the perfect world I want performance without killing the environment. In fact the only reason I am still hesitating on pulling the trigger and ordering an M3 is the fact that my 335i gets me really good power and performance but GREAT gas mileage, I'm talking cruising at 75 gets me around 30-31 mpg. SICK!!!

Now this is not meant to be a "the 335 is better than the M3" comment. All I am saying is I don have a conscious, and it would make my purchasing decision easier and less guilt filled if the mpg were better on this car.

Okay, slap and flame away boys.....
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      04-08-2008, 10:03 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
That my friend, is the wave of the future......judos to you
+1 and the reason I am in this business!!!!
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      04-08-2008, 10:05 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by BMW-M-Mexico View Post
No they are not at all inconsistent, and if its the environment you worry about (as I do), then more power to you!!! I work in a firm that produces Hydrogen, BioDiesel and Ethonal (Not from Suger or Corn either). So I can really relate to all this. However, it seems to me that the fuzz is not about the environment but about not paying a gas guslter tax etc!!!
Kudos to you Hydrogen is the wave of the future, and I hope it continues to evolve to get more performance and get people demanding they build hydrogen stations. Everything else is impractical in the long run or just a band-aide to the problem.

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Originally Posted by ruff View Post
For me the point is not the gas guzzler tax. That is a one time bill that is paid for and done with....good bye and good riddance. The point is, BMWs disingenuous practice of cooking the numbers and false advertising proclaiming to the world their efficient dynamics, blah blah blah. The M3 is dynamic but is frankly one of the most inefficient high performance engines available, especially given the newness of it's motor development.

IMO, BMW made a major mistake in not developing DFI for the M3's 4 litre. I know it is a high revving motor and a difficult engineering achievement, but they could have done it rather than going the cost saving route by basically lopping off 2 cylinders from the V10. I would have been willing to wait 6 more months for DFI development and would have gladly payed a couple thousand more for the R&D to enjoy it's benefits, one of which would of been a nice bump in horsepower. BMW have done a great job with the DFI 335 power plant, which is clearly one of the most powerful, yet fuel efficient motors in it's class. BMW has always been known for their power to efficiency ratio of their engines, that is a major reason why I have been so enamored with their power plants for so long.

This philosophy started to change with the development of the V10. Horsepower and red line were all that mattered at the expense of torque and fuel efficiency.

To make the argument that if one can afford a 70 k car then one can afford the gas is ridiculous on so many levels. It totally misses the point. I may be alone on this but when I compare high performance power plants, I compare horsepower, torque, weight, efficiency and red line. High scores in all areas is what separates great engineering from good engineering.
Perfectly said ruff. P-R-F-E-C-T-L-Y S-A-I-D
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      04-08-2008, 10:06 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW-M-Mexico View Post
+1 and the reason I am in this business!!!!
You an engineer at a energy company or something?
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      04-08-2008, 10:07 AM   #31
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You an engineer at a energy company or something?
I am the CFO of an Energy company!! Although clearly I do get involved in the engineering aspect!!! Its really amazing stuff!!!!
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      04-08-2008, 10:08 AM   #32
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I do have engineering background though!! Before my Masters etc...
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      04-08-2008, 10:54 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by gasman View Post
My CA sent pics of my car at the dealership and the window sticker confirms the $1300 gas guzzler tax. A reduction would have been nice but it's definitely not a deal breaker.
Congratulations. Please post pics of the interior when you get the car so we can see the anthracite wood trim up close. Thanks.
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      04-08-2008, 11:07 AM   #34
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No matter how much cash you have one effect of poor MPG is you spend a lot more time at the pump, a chipped 335D can get 500 to a tank with 90% of straight line performance of a M3 that can get 250 (based on uk gallons)

In cold, wet, miserable scotland the one thing I'm going to hate when I get my new M3 is filling up twice as much as I did in my old car
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      04-08-2008, 11:35 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
Exactly SWAMP!!!! I know people are going to flame me but in the perfect world I want performance without killing the environment. In fact the only reason I am still hesitating on pulling the trigger and ordering an M3 is the fact that my 335i gets me really good power and performance but GREAT gas mileage, I'm talking cruising at 75 gets me around 30-31 mpg. SICK!!!

Now this is not meant to be a "the 335 is better than the M3" comment. All I am saying is I don have a conscious, and it would make my purchasing decision easier and less guilt filled if the mpg were better on this car.

Okay, slap and flame away boys.....
I'm also driving a '07 335i coupe but looking forward to drive the new M3. In fact I've got an appointment with my dealer this coming Friday. For this past couple of weeks, I am doing some research and building my first M3. My only concern is the fuel consumption this beast is guzzling. My first impression is that, this is supposed to be a car not an SUV. But to put it in perspective, I am buying a performance (sports?) car and I should expect some (but no a lot) fuel consumption degradation.
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      04-08-2008, 11:44 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
Perfectly said ruff. P-R-F-E-C-T-L-Y S-A-I-D
+1
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      04-08-2008, 11:49 AM   #37
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Nothing that revs to 8400 is going to get very good gas mileage, most likely. Look at the GT3 and F430 engines.
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      04-08-2008, 12:06 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
Exactly SWAMP!!!! I know people are going to flame me but in the perfect world I want performance without killing the environment. In fact the only reason I am still hesitating on pulling the trigger and ordering an M3 is the fact that my 335i gets me really good power and performance but GREAT gas mileage, I'm talking cruising at 75 gets me around 30-31 mpg. SICK!!!

Now this is not meant to be a "the 335 is better than the M3" comment. All I am saying is I don have a conscious, and it would make my purchasing decision easier and less guilt filled if the mpg were better on this car.

Okay, slap and flame away boys.....
The whole point of the gas guzzler tax is to provide money for bettering the environment. So you are making a significant contribution to cleaning up our environment by purchasing an M3.

Feel better?
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      04-08-2008, 12:15 PM   #39
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I agree with the vast majority of posters here about efficiency. There is another thread currently on the first page talking about the theoretical future RS4/RS5 and how it will "be faster for sure." To me the great question is when will somebody get serious about weight and efficiency rather than just slapping bigger turbos or displacement on the engine. A 30-35 mpg car that has M3 level performance would be a huge seller imho. If the Tesla ever really comes to fruition, watch out. A $70k M3ish 4 seat car with a performance electric engine would have me sell my future M3 in a heartbeat.
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      04-09-2008, 12:27 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW-M-Mexico View Post
I am the CFO of an Energy company!! Although clearly I do get involved in the engineering aspect!!! Its really amazing stuff!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW-M-Mexico View Post
I do have engineering background though!! Before my Masters etc...
SO in other words, you are a really smart big wig
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      04-09-2008, 12:30 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by mdh View Post
The whole point of the gas guzzler tax is to provide money for bettering the environment. So you are making a significant contribution to cleaning up our environment by purchasing an M3.

Feel better?
Much, thanks mom. Do I still have to go to school
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      04-09-2008, 01:00 AM   #42
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Quote:
What is the Gas Guzzler Tax?

The Energy Tax Act of 1978 established a Gas Guzzler Tax on the sale of new model year vehicles whose fuel economy fails to meet certain statutory levels. The gas guzzler tax applies only to cars (not trucks) and is collected by the IRS.

The fuel economy figures used to determine the Gas Guzzler Tax are different from the fuel economy values provided on this web site and in the Fuel Economy Guide. The tax does not depend on your actual on-the-road mpg, which may be more or less than the EPA published value. The purpose of the Gas Guzzler Tax is to discourage the production and purchase of fuel inefficient vehicles. The amount of any applicable Gas Guzzler Tax paid by the manufacturer will be disclosed on the automobile's fuel economy label (the window sticker on new cars).
The GGT is calculated and based on projections, not just by the EPA, but by BMW as well. That is probably why the GGT is the same for both transmissions.

Anyway, if you want to read more than you ever wanted to know about GGT: http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/guzzler/index.htm
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      04-09-2008, 10:12 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skierman64 View Post
For me at least, it wasn't about the gas savings as it was about the Gas Guzzler Tax. I'd just prefer not to send any more money to the Gov't than I have to. I'd rather have that $1300 to spend on other things for my M3.
+1 hate giving the government anymore money than we already have.
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      04-09-2008, 10:13 AM   #44
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SO in other words, you are a really smart big wig
Hahaha!!! Just lucky a guess and enjoy what I do!!!
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