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      04-04-2008, 02:34 PM   #1
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We have never lost a war against another enemy, we lost to ourselves

Talking in school about wars/conflicts past Vietnam has made me realize something. The enemies are not defeating us. We're killing more of them then they are killing us. The main( or one of them at least) strategy in war is to maximize the casualties to your enemy and minimize your own. We did that in Vietnam, Somalia, Iraq, etc. The enemies can't defeat our military( as of now).

What caused us to leave Vietnam, Somalia and soon Iraq? Not horrible coalition/American casualties, but the enemy able to defeat the American will power. Since WWII, we have led ourselves to believe we can swoop in kill all the enemies with no casualties on our side. That the U.S is invincible and no one can defeat us. So when something goes wrong which results in an "unusual" amounts of casualties, we just get wimpy and say pull out which then will keep the enemy fighting as they know with American will power gone, the troops will soon leave. We defeat ourselves, the enemy just has to wait it out for the Americans to give up.

I am in no way in support of Iraq or Bush. Iraq was a total mistake as it distracted us from the real person we should be pursuing( Bin Laden) and Bush is a total idiot.
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      04-04-2008, 04:06 PM   #2
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We've never lost a war tbh.
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      04-04-2008, 07:14 PM   #3
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If declaring victory means winning, then we kick ass.
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      04-04-2008, 07:43 PM   #4
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Yes we have lost wars; the strategic goal of any war in order to win is to destroy the enemies' will to fight; positive casualty rate is only a statistic and does not really have any tactical or strategic value. Wars are not decided by body count. Germany had fewer casualties in WW2 compared with the allies, in particular the USSR but very decidedly lost the war. It is not a computer game.
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      04-04-2008, 09:36 PM   #5
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Yes we have lost wars; the strategic goal of any war in order to win is to destroy the enemies' will to fight; positive casualty rate is only a statistic and does not really have any tactical or strategic value. Wars are not decided by body count. Germany had fewer casualties in WW2 compared with the allies, in particular the USSR but very decidedly lost the war. It is not a computer game.
While they had fewer casualties, they did lose many battles. Though I agree with the breaking of the the enemies will. Though is it the public or soldiers will that must be broken? In today's world and events, it will probably be the public's will that must be broken is the more important one( how much longer would Vietnam would of lasted without the media exaggerating how we "lost" the Tet offensive and turned public opinion around).

Frankly though post-WWII, the American will to fight is too fragile. Part of the reason is probably the media being able to show body bags, etc so the reality of how many troops are dying( imagine if the media was able to show similar images that were shown in Vietnam during WWII, would the American will to fight be broken easier?) sets in with the publics mind. We have been fed that our military is the greatest military in the world. It's true, as I said in my first post the enemies we're facing in Iraq today can't defeat our military. We're killing more of them then they are killing us. It's just this superiority has given the mentality to the public that we're invincible. So when something goes wrong and 5 soldiers die instead of the usual 2 lets say, it causes the American public to go into "panic" mode and wants to cut our losses and bring the troops home.
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      04-04-2008, 11:21 PM   #6
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We're killing a lot more than twice of our casualties. Unfortunately, a lot of those are civilians. And on that note, in WWII U.S has had some generally shitty strategy that resulted in massive casualties - D-Day included, and the public rallied behind that cause. Give the American people at least some credit - they may get bullshitted easily, but once aware of the situation, public gets pretty vocal.
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      04-04-2008, 11:51 PM   #7
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Guys and Gals,

First let me just start out by saying that yes I was a member of our U.S. armed forces...

I am also the CEO for an international relocation company so I deal will many and I mean many dif. governments, laws etc...

Second let me say that above and beyond this war there is more going on than just the U.S., this war, and our economy. Over the past 10 years there has been a major shift in economies...The shift has created a global economy...where even our housing/mortgages are disrupting economies in Japan, England, etc...

With that said we also have two primary nations that are going through a boom like the U.S. had say 40 years ago, primarily, China, and India. They are needing oil at a rate at which when combined with the U.S. consuption the world can not keep up with. Thus there is a run on oil...

The President of the United States of America takes an oath to protect the people of the U.S. He is the Master and Chief of the U.S. Military before anything else. National security does not always mean someone invading our borders. It means protecting the way of life of the American People. We all like driving our BMW's, living in our houses, going out to eat, cell phones, cable tv...etc...

We also want to make sure that the United States of America continues to compete as a world power. Unfortunatley this means we must control a portion of the worlds oil...

Those that do will secure our way of life and those that don't better have something to trade. This is what this war is about. We had better hope that at the end of the day we have a unified Iraq...that is a U.S. partner in the gloabal war for control of oil...

If you look at Rusia, China, etc...that's what they are fighting for...

Look at the UN many countries....France etc..where paying off Sadam and trading with him to get control of the oil. This has been going on for over 10 years...it just came to a head in the past few.

Someone will win this fight..it sucks, it's true, and it's our reality. Either we will win or we will find ourselves in another deep very long depression. Our global systems..economy, energy, trade, etc...simply can not adapt fast enough to get out from under our dependance on oil. It's just that simple.

The reality is Iraq was run by a nasty, dictator that deserved to me killed...the people there (wether they know it or not) deserve better. The U.S. for "National Security" and yes finanacial reasons must maintain our position in the world order. Reality just sucks sometimes.

But if we want to continue to prosper, if we want to maintain our way of life then we must have open trade, control a good portion of the worlds oil supplies, have enough money to continue to fund our military, and continue to spread democracy thoughout the world. The global economy relys on us to do just this. If you don't believe me look at what is happening with our new missle defence systems. Poland etc...is embracing the development of the progam which isolates, Russia and China.

Look at the big picture...it's not as simple as the comments on this thread...it's now a global fight for resources, strategic partnerships, leverage, etc...

All The Best,

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      04-05-2008, 12:16 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by quagmire View Post
Talking in school about wars/conflicts past Vietnam has made me realize something. The enemies are not defeating us. We're killing more of them then they are killing us. The main( or one of them at least) strategy in war is to maximize the casualties to your enemy and minimize your own. We did that in Vietnam, Somalia, Iraq, etc. The enemies can't defeat our military( as of now).

What caused us to leave Vietnam, Somalia and soon Iraq? Not horrible coalition/American casualties, but the enemy able to defeat the American will power. Since WWII, we have led ourselves to believe we can swoop in kill all the enemies with no casualties on our side. That the U.S is invincible and no one can defeat us. So when something goes wrong which results in an "unusual" amounts of casualties, we just get wimpy and say pull out which then will keep the enemy fighting as they know with American will power gone, the troops will soon leave. We defeat ourselves, the enemy just has to wait it out for the Americans to give up.

I am in no way in support of Iraq or Bush. Iraq was a total mistake as it distracted us from the real person we should be pursuing( Bin Laden) and Bush is a total idiot.
Actually Bin Laden is just a blip on the map...and Bush is smarter than you think. He understands what his job is. It's not to be popular...it's to protect our way of life, and our ability to protect this country. Without a resonable control of the worlds oil supply we can not protect either. Look at the big picture...not just what's going on right now. President Bush believe it or not is right in saying history will judge what I have done. If we pull out of Iraq we will loose all...I just met with 6 CEO's of major companies 1 of which was from Japan, and 1 of which was from India. We all agree that the U.S. must continue the world movement towards democracy, and that we must control a reasonable amount of the worlds oil to secure a balanced world economy.
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      04-05-2008, 12:21 AM   #9
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      04-05-2008, 12:58 AM   #10
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Actually Bin Laden is just a blip on the map...and Bush is smarter than you think. He understands what his job is. It's not to be popular...it's to protect our way of life, and our ability to protect this country. Without a resonable control of the worlds oil supply we can not protect either. Look at the big picture...not just what's going on right now. President Bush believe it or not is right in saying history will judge what I have done. If we pull out of Iraq we will loose all...I just met with 6 CEO's of major companies 1 of which was from Japan, and 1 of which was from India. We all agree that the U.S. must continue the world movement towards democracy, and that we must control a reasonable amount of the worlds oil to secure a balanced world economy.

Blip killed 3k Americans in one day on Bush's watch. If he is such a minor issue, how come we can't get him? Saddam killed HIS people and we went after him for "humanitarian" reasons. Bin Laden killed our own and he's NOT important?!?

Iraq war is organized transfer of wealth from Joe Shmo to corporate America. It is a great business model.

Enemy is invented, then personified by a ruthless dictator. This leads to cash cow called war.


Bush is incompetent for the job he's supposed to be doing. He is good for war profiteers, NOT for average Americans.

Scare tactics that you are promoting also work great. Carl Rove style...
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      04-05-2008, 01:26 AM   #11
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      04-05-2008, 07:16 AM   #12
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The problem is the US goes to war for "democracy". Others fight wars to win. We go to war to free people (who often do not want it), others to destroy the enemy. Remember Conan, "crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women." That should be the objectives of war.
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      04-05-2008, 07:18 AM   #13
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Quote:
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Actually Bin Laden is just a blip on the map...and Bush is smarter than you think. He understands what his job is. It's not to be popular...it's to protect our way of life, and our ability to protect this country. Without a resonable control of the worlds oil supply we can not protect either. Look at the big picture...not just what's going on right now. President Bush believe it or not is right in saying history will judge what I have done. If we pull out of Iraq we will loose all...I just met with 6 CEO's of major companies 1 of which was from Japan, and 1 of which was from India. We all agree that the U.S. must continue the world movement towards democracy, and that we must control a reasonable amount of the worlds oil to secure a balanced world economy.
Democracy is a myth.
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      04-05-2008, 09:38 AM   #14
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Actually Bin Laden is just a blip on the map...and Bush is smarter than you think. He understands what his job is. It's not to be popular...it's to protect our way of life, and our ability to protect this country. Without a resonable control of the worlds oil supply we can not protect either. Look at the big picture...not just what's going on right now. President Bush believe it or not is right in saying history will judge what I have done. If we pull out of Iraq we will loose all...I just met with 6 CEO's of major companies 1 of which was from Japan, and 1 of which was from India. We all agree that the U.S. must continue the world movement towards democracy, and that we must control a reasonable amount of the worlds oil to secure a balanced world economy.
I just believe in America's tradition of we will not attack others until we're attacked. So going after a guy that had nothing to do with 9/11( though Bush spun it that he did to use our fear against us) goes against the American way which you say Bush is trying to preserve.

Now I think we should stay in Iraq until it is stable. We went in and fucked it up, we better stay in and fix it. The cut and run strategy for the U.S has failed. Look at Vietnam. South Vietnam got taken over easily since we left. A dictator will rise again in Iraq if we can't create stability in that country. It's the only issue I disagree with the Democrats. We shouldn't pull out ASAP. We should reduce our forces to slap the Iraqi people into reality that we're not going to be there forever so they will start doing something to help themselves. But, just pulling out will potentially cause us to back to Iraq in the future.
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      04-05-2008, 09:48 AM   #15
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Democracy is a myth.
I'm glad you think so. I'll let my buddies over there they are dying and fighting for a myth.
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      04-05-2008, 10:03 AM   #16
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I'm glad you think so. I'll let my buddies over there they are dying and fighting for a myth.
It is. If we want to fight, fight for land, power, dominance. Those are good things to fight and die for, real things. Do not delude ourselves into thinking we fight for an abstract idea such as democracy. How many people vote? How much influence does the voter or the public really have? Nil. The two political parties carry on with their own agendas to sustain their existence buoyed by corporate money. It is one big inefficient bureaucracy, not democracy. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

And did anyone ask the Islamic people if they wanted democracy? If it will work with an extremely religious populace that naturally elects a theocracy?
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      04-05-2008, 10:45 AM   #17
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It is. If we want to fight, fight for land, power, dominance. Those are good things to fight and die for, real things. Do not delude ourselves into thinking we fight for an abstract idea such as democracy. How many people vote? How much influence does the voter or the public really have? Nil. The two political parties carry on with their own agendas to sustain their existence buoyed by corporate money. It is one big inefficient bureaucracy, not democracy. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

And did anyone ask the Islamic people if they wanted democracy? If it will work with an extremely religious populace that naturally elects a theocracy?
That explains our dominance of France, Germany, Japan, South Korea, etc... When De Gaulle demanded US troops leave France, what happened? We left.

Never in the history of the world has a nation had such overwhelming economic and military dominance and not used it for its own expansion.
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      04-05-2008, 10:45 AM   #18
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Blip killed 3k Americans in one day on Bush's watch. If he is such a minor issue, how come we can't get him? Saddam killed HIS people and we went after him for "humanitarian" reasons. Bin Laden killed our own and he's NOT important?!?

Iraq war is organized transfer of wealth from Joe Shmo to corporate America. It is a great business model.

Enemy is invented, then personified by a ruthless dictator. This leads to cash cow called war.


Bush is incompetent for the job he's supposed to be doing. He is good for war profiteers, NOT for average Americans.

Scare tactics that you are promoting also work great. Carl Rove style...
Your missing the point...I am not saying that Bin Laden isn't important. The reality is that he shouldn't have been a free man when Bush became president. Clinton had multiple chances to arrest, kill, etc...and did nothing he was too busy being popular to do his job. But that's another story. He's just a blip on the map in a much, much larger story.

To stay on topic the point I was making is that we now live in a world economy. A world that is very interconnected. As we speak the majority of civilized nations are or have already moved toward Democracy. Democracy is not a myth...by the way. I have lived and worked in other countries and I have seen the dif. in governments. We have it good, very good.

It's not to say the details of the war, how much it is costing, the loss of life, etc...isn't important. It is very important. But with that said America as we know it, depends on us winning it. I think Bush made some serious mistakes going in to this war, but we are there now. And the reasons for the war reach far beyond the latest news, which is also driven by special int. groups.

And as far as scare tactics, that's a joke...The issues I pose are very real. Look at the Soviet Union...once one of the largest most powerful nations in the world...broken appart, sent into financial turmoil, etc... in a matter of a few years. Think about it. Our way of life here in America is not as concrete as 90% of Americans would like to believe.
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      04-05-2008, 12:32 PM   #19
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That explains our dominance of France, Germany, Japan, South Korea, etc... When De Gaulle demanded US troops leave France, what happened? We left.

Never in the history of the world has a nation had such overwhelming economic and military dominance and not used it for its own expansion.
Actually, they programmed you wrong, soldier...
Without Russian (and other Alies) dominance in Europe in the WW2 that paved the way for us, US would have had no chance to claim it for itself... If the enemy was not stretched three different ways, Normandy would have never happened...

As for the second comment -- true, but no Power lasted forever, neither will this one... And it is more and more obvious...daily...
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      04-05-2008, 03:11 PM   #20
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We've never lost a war tbh.
War of 1812
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      04-05-2008, 03:22 PM   #21
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War of 1812
That was a draw.
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      04-06-2008, 11:12 AM   #22
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Clearly we left Europe because we are awesome, and not because there were 2 million troops sitting on the other side of Berlin, waiting for a reason to steamroll West... Fact remains that United States has done good things, and some really bad things in the past. I don't know about you, but I'd rather adhere to the legacy of the former.
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