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      03-27-2008, 01:00 PM   #1
mkoesel
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BMW considering cutting the cylinder count on M-models (and using FI) ?

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Of all the things that have hampered performance over the last two decades, vehicle weight is at the top of the list. Automakers have responded by putting more power under the hood to make up for the extra pounds, and BMW is as guilty as the rest – particularly with its M cars. The first (E30) M3 came packing a 2.3-liter four-pot and was able to put out an astonishing (at the time) 212 197 hp. When the E36 came along a few years later, the cylinder count increased by two and stayed that way through the E46 generation until today, where the new E92 M3 is motivated by a 4.0-liter V8 outputting more than double of the original, but also weighing considerably more.

So what's the next step? BMW CEO Norbert Reithofer is at least aware of this fact and mentioned to Auto Motor und Sport that he'd like to see the next batch of M cars lose a few cylinders, while simultaneously dropping the pounds. He points to the twin-turbocharged inline-six in the 135i, 335i and 535i as a good indication of what the future might hold, particularly in the case of the M-badged variants that would make more use of forced induction rather than upgraded displacement and higher cylinder counts (not that they could get much higher). We can only dream, but with emissions standards increasing across the globe, it's the next logical evolution of the performance breed.
Auto Motor Und Sport via Autoblog

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/27/b...t-on-m-models/

Another reference to turbo-charged Ms.
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      03-27-2008, 01:13 PM   #2
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Well, Porsche (911 tt and GT2), AMG (CLK DTM AMG, SLR & their V12tt SLīs) and Audi seem to be doing very, very well with forced induction. Tuners like Ruff, Brabus, Dinan & Kleemann as well!!! So that I do believe that forced induction, if done well, can be fantastic!!!!! And I have no doubt M can do it right!!!!
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      03-27-2008, 02:27 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW-M-Mexico View Post
Well, Porsche (911 tt and GT3), AMG (CLK DTM AMG, SLR & their V12tt SLīs) and Audi seem to be doing very, very well with forced induction. Tuners like Ruff, Brabus, Dinan & Kleemann as well!!! So that I do believe that forced induction, if done well, can be fantastic!!!!! And I have no doubt M can do it right!!!!
I'm sure M could do great job, just like the other vendors you mention. BMW has already proven as much with the turbocharged N54 I6 and N64 V8.

The question is will we still get a 8000RPM+ motor or will it be something... lower? In other words how well will they be able to preserve the feel of today's M powerplants?
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      03-27-2008, 02:33 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Laszlo View Post
It makes sense... it's a good product roadmap. Gas is outrageously expensive and only going to get worse. All cars are going to get smaller and smaller. By BMW introducing the 1-series is a good sign they'll begin to regress back to smaller, more nimble cars... and the smaller they get the less power they'll need. I would like to see the 3-series shrink to the e36 size... IMO.
Well, the 1 series is E36 size, so the 3 will necessarily have to remain bigger.

But I know what you are saying. I think what you really want is for the 1 series to become the new 3 series (in a manner of speaking), complete with sedans in the lineup and of course an M version. That's likely to happen. And its likely to happen soon - next generation IMHO. I suspect that by the end of next decade - probably much sooner, the 1 series will have stolen the sales volume title away from the 3 series within the BMW lineup.

As for the size meaning less power, unfortunately that's only true if it also means less weight, which so far is not necessarily the case. The 1 series is almost as heavy as the 3 series (and for that matter the 3 is almost as heavy as the 5).
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      03-27-2008, 02:50 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW-M-Mexico View Post
Well, Porsche (911 tt and GT3)
The GT3 doesn't have forced induction. I presume you mean the GT2.
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      03-27-2008, 03:04 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by mofomat View Post
The GT3 doesn't have forced induction. I presume you mean the GT2.
Sorry, that is correct, it is the GT2!!!!
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      03-27-2008, 03:16 PM   #7
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Hmmm... the first and last V8 M3.... Sad day as we are probably looking at the 80's again. Cars hampered by heavy safety equipment and underpowered with small fuel efficient engines.... Hopefully exotic material technology and and prices keep up with the demands for smaller lighter cars....

Jason
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      03-27-2008, 03:16 PM   #8
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Interesting. Glad I got my V8!

I had an '05 997 S loaded. I definitely like the M3 better, in terms of the engine.
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      03-27-2008, 03:44 PM   #9
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...i am probably the only one against his FI idea...i hope m stays NA. (high rev NA that is...)
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      03-27-2008, 03:52 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I'm sure M could do great job, just like the other vendors you mention. BMW has already proven as much with the turbocharged N54 I6 and N64 V8.

The question is will we still get a 8000RPM+ motor or will it be something... lower? In other words how well will they be able to preserve the feel of today's M powerplants?
Uffff, this is very difficult to respond to!!! HP is generated on naturally aspirated engines either though larger displacement (i.e., 2008 Dodge Viper SRT10īs 600 hp 8.4L V10 with red line of 6,250 RPM) or high revs/engine speed (i.e., 2007 BMW M6 500 hp 5.0L V10 red line of 8,250 RPM/or extreme 2008 F1 with a 750hp 2.4L V8īs red line at 19,000 RPM). BMW mainly has gone the smaller displacement high rev root in order to save weight, a more expensive and technologically challenging but IMO more rewarding rout. Now, you can always go even smaller with either more revs and technology or by adding forced induction. In general however, I find other forced induction cars absolutely wonderful to drive despite their lower RPMīs (i.e., Mercedes AMGīs such as the DTM and the 2008 Porsche GT2 red line at around 7,000 RPM or lower and both cars by the way produce power of 580 and 530 hp respectively and torque of 590 lbs/ft and 505 lbs/ft, absolutely fantastic and very flat), so that I do not at all believe that lower RPM will necessarily mean less fun etc… and in fact, a forced induction engine can be much more flexible and will not lose power when it gains altitude as readily as a NA engine will. So hay, Iīm all for it!!! Just look at the brouhaha associated with the tt GT-R!!! Hahaha!!!
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      03-27-2008, 03:53 PM   #11
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i hope they cut down on count of cyl's. FI FTW
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      03-27-2008, 03:57 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mantis View Post
i hope they cut down on count of cyl's. FI FTW
Why?
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      03-27-2008, 04:06 PM   #13
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Been discussed before, not officially of course. FI is only a matter of time. Yes, as for the V8 in the M. In the not near to distant future the government here in the US will regulate for MPG. Say bye-bye to many of these big HP behemoths. Car manufaturers will have to get very creative and use every bit of tech to make future cars interesting. Sooooo get your M3's now while its feasible.
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      03-27-2008, 04:08 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E394KEN View Post
Been discussed before, not officially of course. FI is only a matter of time. Yes, as for the V8 in the M. In the not near to distant future the government here in the US will regulate for MPG. Say bye-bye to many of these big HP behemoths. Car manufaturers will have to get very creative and use every bit of tech to make future cars interesting. Sooooo get your M3's now while its feasible.
F1 will keep the 2.4L V8 until the end of the 2010 season at least!!
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      03-27-2008, 04:13 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW-M-Mexico View Post
Why?
coz what's going on right now is ridiculous. huge engines, a lot of cyl's, a hyundai has over 300 hp! that's like ferrari 10 years ago man.

IMHO all car manufacturers should put more effort in finding alternative energy, weight reduction solutions for cheap, improve efficiency.
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      03-27-2008, 04:14 PM   #16
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what people are assuming is that he was referring to the V8 getting cut down. He is more likely talking about the V10 getting cut down and using forced induction. If my memory serves me right, a new V8 N64 is a twin turbo getting 400hp the same performance as the V10 without pushing the //M button. So software and //M components could essentially do the same when added to the to it. Too much research went into the V8 in the //M3 to kill it, more likely they will use that engine and a twin turbo setup like in the N64 to get even more ponies. The V8 in the M3 weighs less than the previous 6 so that is not the issue with weight, the cars weigh more because of more rigidity and density in materials for performance and occupant safety versus older cars as well as additional safety equipment. People forget that the some of the high strength materials in the safety cage weigh more than in the past, the remainder of the car tends to be lighter. They even shave weight now by making button and levers hollow where in the past they were solid.
I can see the M5/M6 getting and engine update since they have been around since late 04 early 05 and were designed around the SMG, which has been on its way out for years.
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      03-27-2008, 04:21 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mantis View Post
coz what's going on right now is ridiculous. huge engines, a lot of cyl's, a hyundai has over 300 hp! that's like ferrari 10 years ago man.

IMHO all car manufacturers should put more effort in finding alternative energy, weight reduction solutions for cheap, improve efficiency.
Oh yes, I do see your point and share your opinion!! But F1 does have a very, very small 2.4 L engine!! But again, I agree that the hp race has to stop and we ought to go the weight and efficiency rout!!! Ethanol has higher octaine (of about 104) so even our E92 M3 V-8's could be tunned to rev up even higher and yield more power and being greener!!!
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      03-27-2008, 04:22 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
what people are assuming is that he was referring to the V8 getting cut down. He is more likely talking about the V10 getting cut down and using forced induction. If my memory serves me right, a new V8 N64 is a twin turbo getting 400hp the same performance as the V10 without pushing the //M button. So software and //M components could essentially do the same when added to the to it. Too much research went into the V8 in the //M3 to kill it, more likely they will use that engine and a twin turbo setup like in the N64 to get even more ponies. The V8 in the M3 weighs less than the previous 6 so that is not the issue with weight, the cars weigh more because of more rigidity and density in materials for performance and occupant safety versus older cars as well as additional safety equipment. People forget that the some of the high strength materials in the safety cage weigh more than in the past, the remainder of the car tends to be lighter. They even shave weight now by making button and levers hollow where in the past they were solid.
I can see the M5/M6 getting and engine update since they have been around since late 04 early 05 and were designed around the SMG, which has been on its way out for years.
Very good points!!!
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      03-27-2008, 05:31 PM   #19
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keep the cylenders but still add the turbos
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      03-27-2008, 05:39 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by dillon733 View Post
keep the cylenders but still add the turbos
Now that would probably lead well into the 600hp arena!!!! Would be amazing!!!!!!
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      03-27-2008, 06:32 PM   #21
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It would also be nice if they would put real LSD's in non-M cars...
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      03-27-2008, 06:36 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by BMW-M-Mexico View Post
Oh yes, I do see your point and share your opinion!! But F1 does have a very, very small 2.4 L engine!! But again, I agree that the hp race has to stop and we ought to go the weight and efficiency rout!!! Ethanol has higher octaine (of about 104) so even our E92 M3 V-8's could be tunned to rev up even higher and yield more power and being greener!!!

if 335's run ethanol i'd jump in one right away 104 octane
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It would also be nice if they would put real LSD's in non-M cars...
then why buy m cars - says Marketing
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