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      03-30-2008, 12:36 PM   #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
...
TB is someone who feels a need to argue for no other reason than the fact I currently drive an Audi and still rate them very highly indeed. Like most things he says he's usually wrong, the current argument being one of them as anyone with a decent amount of track experience will know.
...
Footie, saying that TB is "usually" wrong is categorically incorrect. And this comes from someone who does argue/debate with him as well.

Although I haven't seen TB on the track it is abundantly clear he has significant track time.

As well I know nothing about your racing resume. But it SOUNDS from most of your posts that your money is not where your mouth is.
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      03-30-2008, 04:40 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
It looks better here. It looks more like the begining of the shift is recognizable as beginning much closer at the same point in time on both curves. The acceleration trace looks like sampling right around 10 Hz. The velocity trace still has a lot of smoothing.

My estimation of the shift time, again based on the acceleration curve only is 0.8s +/- .2s (+/- .1 on each end). You can see this estimate does not yey even overlap with your initial estimate of .5 s (.48 s, as you said).

For M-DCT, especially under aggressive shifts under aggressive throttle we will need much better than 10 Hz resolution to time these particular shifts.

Thanks again! Really appreciate the input.
No problem but whats wrong with taking the flat spot in the acceleration curve as the shift time? the acceleration will drop off when pushing in the clutch and the curve will only rise again when the next gear is engaged.....

Unfortunately I think it will be a while before anyone here will be able to test the DCT with any accuracy..... 100Hz sampling won't pick up a claimed sub 8 millisecond shift, I don't think even the industy standard VBOXIII could resolve that (the measuring gear I use is made by the same company and is within -/+ 1% as accurate according to their own testing)
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      03-30-2008, 04:53 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Wads View Post
No problem but whats wrong with taking the flat spot in the acceleration curve as the shift time? the acceleration will drop off when pushing in the clutch and the curve will only rise again when the next gear is engaged.....

Unfortunately I think it will be a while before anyone here will be able to test the DCT with any accuracy..... 100Hz sampling won't pick up a claimed sub 8 millisecond shift, I don't think even the industy standard VBOXIII could resolve that (the measuring gear I use is made by the same company and is within -/+ 1% as accurate according to their own testing)

Out of curiousity, were you Wide-Open-Throttle in your graphics? Also, did you back off after 70 mph?

Finally, SMG shifts are fastest from 3rd to 4th or 4th to 5th.....
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      03-30-2008, 10:23 PM   #246
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No problem but whats wrong with taking the flat spot in the acceleration curve as the shift time? the acceleration will drop off when pushing in the clutch and the curve will only rise again when the next gear is engaged.....

Unfortunately I think it will be a while before anyone here will be able to test the DCT with any accuracy..... 100Hz sampling won't pick up a claimed sub 8 millisecond shift, I don't think even the industy standard VBOXIII could resolve that (the measuring gear I use is made by the same company and is within -/+ 1% as accurate according to their own testing)
Do you mean the flat spot in the velocity vs. time curve (as it seems you used originally). The problem is that acceleration is the directly measured parameter, velocity is then derived numerically introducing inaccuracy. Furthemore there is simply a larger and more clear change to work with when using acceleration directly. Reading the knee of the velocity curve accurately is a lot harder than finding the drop in the acceleration curve.

On top of this you clearly must agree that the time estimated from both curves disagree fairly dramatically. That is the biggest problem I see with this data and that was about the first point I made. Two conflicting curves, they give totally different estimates and do not match in the time domain. Who knows what the best conclusion is.

Myself as well as most folks "in the know" seem to agree that 8ms shift times are not possible. There is a lot of claims about VW/Audi DSG accomplishing this, but more cerdible sources claim about 30ms. I think M-DCT will surely be in this same general neighborhood of times.

Lastly on the accuracy of the VBOX. You have to be careful on your very definition of "accuracy". Sure I bet the system is 1% accurate for some measurements but similarly there is no way it is 1% accurate for all measurements. As far as requirements go 200Hz should get us to withing 10 ms (don't forget Nyquist) accuracy and that should be about the minimum. 500 Hz - 2 kHz would be much better for really figuring out the differences down to 1 - 5 ms which would be required to see differences between individual drivelogic modes.
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      03-31-2008, 04:19 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Do you mean the flat spot in the velocity vs. time curve (as it seems you used originally). The problem is that acceleration is the directly measured parameter, velocity is then derived numerically introducing inaccuracy. Furthemore there is simply a larger and more clear change to work with when using acceleration directly. Reading the knee of the velocity curve accurately is a lot harder than finding the drop in the acceleration curve.

On top of this you clearly must agree that the time estimated from both curves disagree fairly dramatically. That is the biggest problem I see with this data and that was about the first point I made. Two conflicting curves, they give totally different estimates and do not match in the time domain. Who knows what the best conclusion is.

Myself as well as most folks "in the know" seem to agree that 8ms shift times are not possible. There is a lot of claims about VW/Audi DSG accomplishing this, but more cerdible sources claim about 30ms. I think M-DCT will surely be in this same general neighborhood of times.

Lastly on the accuracy of the VBOX. You have to be careful on your very definition of "accuracy". Sure I bet the system is 1% accurate for some measurements but similarly there is no way it is 1% accurate for all measurements. As far as requirements go 200Hz should get us to withing 10 ms (don't forget Nyquist) accuracy and that should be about the minimum. 500 Hz - 2 kHz would be much better for really figuring out the differences down to 1 - 5 ms which would be required to see differences between individual drivelogic modes.
The $600 Racelogic Performance Box is accurate to within +/- 0.1kph which is good enough for me (and most of the car magazines that use it) considering the Racelogic VBOXIII (100Hz) costs (as far as I know) around $60000..... and its just a little more accurate than my mate with his stopwatch

T Bone was I WOT? Yes up to the point of shifting then off the gas and back on again ie. I didn't keep the throttle down during the shift (is that you you guys call a power shift????)
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      03-31-2008, 10:40 AM   #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
As I noted, I was being a bit harsh calling people idiots for shifting in a corner, as I will do it too in low g corners.
Unless you're feeling your way around an unfamiliar track for a couple of laps, there is no such thing as a low g corner. You obviously meant to say something else here.

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Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
If my car is at the limit in the middle of a corner, I will keep steady throttle until I have some margin for the car to unsettle during any shift, manual or otherwise. The corners I listed where I won't shift, I absolutely do not want to upset the car's balance. The one corner where there is a high G load, and where I will shift is a slower corner and there is more room for correction.
Y'know, I've read some of your stuff in this string, and it has made absolutely no sense to me, including the above paragraph. Then, I chanced to look at your vehicle description, and suddenly it's clear. Your track experience is in an SMG car, and as footie has pointed out, SMG is stupid enough so that it doesn't care about lateral g loading, and does full-boogie shifts if that's what the driver has selected.

Is that true? If so, that's just one more reason why SMG was and is a completely bad idea by BMW.

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Having a high torque car multiples the effects of loading and unloading the rear end for shifts.
I disagree completely. You're giving me the SMG answer. Humans (and computer-controlled automatic transmissions with decent software) can manage gentle shifts in corners so as to stay shiny side up with no weeds tucked up under the tire beads.

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      03-31-2008, 11:31 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Unless you're feeling your way around an unfamiliar track for a couple of laps, there is no such thing as a low g corner. You obviously meant to say something else here.



Y'know, I've read some of your stuff in this string, and it has made absolutely no sense to me, including the above paragraph. Then, I chanced to look at your vehicle description, and suddenly it's clear. Your track experience is in an SMG car, and as footie has pointed out, SMG is stupid enough so that it doesn't care about lateral g loading, and does full-boogie shifts if that's what the driver has selected.

Is that true? If so, that's just one more reason why SMG was and is a completely bad idea by BMW.



I disagree completely. You're giving me the SMG answer. Humans (and computer-controlled automatic transmissions with decent software) can manage gentle shifts in corners so as to stay shiny side up with no weeds tucked up under the tire beads.

Bruce
Actually almost all my experience on the track with a MT. I think you answered your own questions, if you are 9/10ths or 10/10ths, your car's tires are at the limit of adhesion and any shifting will cause the rear to unload (and oversteer). I would hope that if you are not on the brakes, you are using the throttle to balance the car.If you are at the limit of adhesion in an SMG car, DSC will actually kick in on an upshift for this reason. If you maintain throttle in an SMG car, and shift when the loading is off, no problems.If a human were to shift at 9/10th or 10/10ths, either the DSC will kick in or you will need to make a correction as you lose adhesion. You just have a bit more control as to how quickly you unload the rear.It is OK to disagree....but I would try a car with a bit more torque as the unloading is a bit more pronounced.
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      03-31-2008, 12:13 PM   #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
I disagree completely. You're giving me the SMG answer. Humans (and computer-controlled automatic transmissions with decent software) can manage gentle shifts in corners so as to stay shiny side up with no weeds tucked up under the tire beads.

Bruce
I cannot agree with this. SMG or MT you have to lift the throttle to shift. That alone can put some cars rright off the track. Don't try this in a tail happy MR car.
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      03-31-2008, 12:58 PM   #251
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Maybe slightly off topic here, but experiencing how quickly the revs build in this car in the lower gears, DCT will be instrumental in shifting close to redline. This will be much harder to do with the 6MT although I personally don't care about shifting at the latest possible moment since I am not going to race this car. In the manual modes, does DCT automatically shift up at redline under acceleration?
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      03-31-2008, 01:06 PM   #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
I cannot agree with this. SMG or MT you have to lift the throttle to shift. That alone can put some cars rright off the track. Don't try this in a tail happy MR car.
If you think a Mid engined rwd is twitchy then try a 996 or 997 (though the 997 is better), either of these two will swap ends in a heart beat. I believe your comments are directed at the Elise/Exige, I don't have any real track experience of either. I have experience in both the F360 and F430 and found the latter a much better mannered car in every way, it electronics are truly amazing and I would defy anyone to better the lap time by turning everything off.

But again it's a car which I wouldn't want to shift during a corner, that's the difference between SMG and DSG, dual clutch is really that good, when you watch the FifthGear comparison test of DSG vs Manual you will see that poor old Vicki wasn't tuned into the DSG car in the same way she would with the manual but it was still quicker. And that's with a car which automatically shifts up at the limit regardless if you want or not, DCT will improve on this because of the fact it gives you the option, but only if the shift is smooth when cornering.

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      03-31-2008, 01:14 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Maybe slightly off topic here, but experiencing how quickly the revs build in this car in the lower gears, DCT will be instrumental in shifting close to redline. This will be much harder to do with the 6MT although I personally don't care about shifting at the latest possible moment since I am not going to race this car. In the manual modes, does DCT automatically shift up at redline under acceleration?

Even with SMG or DCT, the BMW V8s and V10s build the revs so quickly near the redline that I upshift when the needle hits 8000 rpm. By the time my finger and SMG reacts, I am shifting at redline.

My Dinan software gives a redline of 8400 rpm but after 8000 rpm, you don't get more power anyway on either the V8 or V10.

Shift at 8000 rpm.

On a related note, in auto mode, SMG / MDCT will use the optimal upshift programs. If you get a shorter rear end, WOT upshift at redline in auto mode won't work anymore....since the tranny computer reads the speeds sensors before shifting.
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      03-31-2008, 01:24 PM   #254
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My Dinan software gives a redline of 8400 rpm but after 8000 rpm, you don't get more power anyway on either the V8 or V10.

Shift at 8000 rpm.
But that depends on where you would end up on the power curve after the shift. You should keep on going until you reach a point where power in the current gear is about to be less than the power in the next gear or are about to destroy your drivetrain. For the V8, that seems to indicate shifting at the redline.
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      03-31-2008, 01:35 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by lucid View Post
But that depends on where you would end up on the power curve after the shift. You should keep on going until you reach a point where power in the current gear is about to be less than the power in the next gear or are about to destroy your drivetrain. For the V8, that seems to be at the redline.

But this is precisely what BMW has figured out. You shift at redline to be in the meat of the powerband for the next gear.

Where I felt BMW made the wrong compromise with the V8 is that they chose a flat torque curve below 5500 rpm instead of giving more torque in the last 2000-2500 rpm like the M5 / M6's V10.

When you are accelerating, tracking, racing, you are really playing around with a 3000 rpm powerband.....if you can deliver power in this narrow band, you will be happy. The rest of the power band is for the street and unimportant.
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      03-31-2008, 01:41 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
But this is precisely what BMW has figured out. You shift at redline to be in the meat of the powerband for the next gear.

Where I felt BMW made the wrong compromise with the V8 is that they chose a flat torque curve below 5500 rpm instead of giving more torque in the last 2000-2500 rpm like the M5 / M6's V10.

When you are accelerating, tracking, racing, you are really playing around with a 3000 rpm powerband.....if you can deliver power in this narrow band, you will be happy. The rest of the power band is for the street and unimportant.
Sure, for someone who will consistently push this car, I see what you are saying. But the question is more around making the best out of what we've been delivered unless you want to mess with your engine.
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      03-31-2008, 01:46 PM   #257
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Sure, for someone who will consistently push this car, I see what you are saying. But the question is more around making the best out of what we've been delivered unless you want to mess with your engine.

Sorry, I don't understand what you are asking?? Can you please restate what you mean and the scenario?
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      03-31-2008, 01:50 PM   #258
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Sorry, I don't understand what you are asking?? Can you please restate what you mean and the scenario?
I was just saying the optimal shift point for fastest acceleration in the M3 seems to be at the redline, and DCT will allow one to do that more precisely compared to 6MT, that's all. I think you are saying the same thing, just that one should click at 8000 to get the redline shift timed right?
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      03-31-2008, 02:11 PM   #259
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I was just saying the optimal shift point for fastest acceleration in the M3 seems to be at the redline, and DCT will allow one to do that more precisely compared to 6MT, that's all. I think you are saying the same thing, just that one should click at 8000 to get the redline shift timed right?

Yes.... You just need to anticipate the shift or else you bounce off the limiter and it cuts power for what seems forever....

Also you lose less revs with MDCT....since the shift with 6MT takes longer your engine revs drop more and you lose more power (remember power is a function of torque multiple by RPM).
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      03-31-2008, 05:37 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by enigma View Post
I cannot agree with this. SMG or MT you have to lift the throttle to shift. That alone can put some cars rright off the track. Don't try this in a tail happy MR car.
BTW, one concrete example of the effect of unloading the rear end by lifting or shifting is the earlier Porsche 911s.

I drove my friends 964 variant of the 911 many years ago and I spun it a couple of times because I lifted mid corner.

Earlier 911s are reknowned as widow-makers because of this phenomena, aka, lift-throttle oversteer. It is induced as easily as lifting the throttle (let along trying to shift).

People like Hurley Haywood have been able to actual use this to their advantage (along with turbo lag).....they would go into a corner hot, understeer and then lift, inducing oversteer thus allowing the car to rotate....during the rotation, they would mash the throttle and by the time the car was pointed the right way, the turbo would be back on full boost....

But very few have Hurley's skills to pull this off.
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      03-31-2008, 05:47 PM   #261
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Have had enough experience of most modern 911 to know exactly what you are on about. They are getting better but it's still a different skill required to drive one quickly and you are correct you can use the lift off oversteer to your advantage but even the best don't always get it right. Out of all the cars being discussed the 911 will benefit most from dual clutch.
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      03-31-2008, 06:48 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by footie View Post
Have had enough experience of most modern 911 to know exactly what you are on about. They are getting better but it's still a different skill required to drive one quickly and you are correct you can use the lift off oversteer to your advantage but even the best don't always get it right. Out of all the cars being discussed the 911 will benefit most from dual clutch.
Porsche has promised DKG for so long and still nothing. It looks like I'll be leaving the p-car camp for bmw now.
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      03-31-2008, 11:20 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Actually almost all my experience on the track with a MT. I think you answered your own questions, if you are 9/10ths or 10/10ths, your car's tires are at the limit of adhesion and any shifting will cause the rear to unload (and oversteer). I would hope that if you are not on the brakes, you are using the throttle to balance the car.If you are at the limit of adhesion in an SMG car, DSC will actually kick in on an upshift for this reason. If you maintain throttle in an SMG car, and shift when the loading is off, no problems.If a human were to shift at 9/10th or 10/10ths, either the DSC will kick in or you will need to make a correction as you lose adhesion. You just have a bit more control as to how quickly you unload the rear.It is OK to disagree....but I would try a car with a bit more torque as the unloading is a bit more pronounced.
At 10/10ths, shifting means loss of control, perhaps temporarily. At 9/10ths, it's a piece of cake.

I'd like to remind you that, if you'd like to be fast, you're generally not cornering at 10/10ths - particularly if it's a corner that demands a shift. No, it's not self preservation at work. It's just that if you're going through there at 9/10ths, you can get on the gas earlier so as to make it down to the end of the next straight faster than the other guy.

The first corner of a series of bends? Maybe ten tenths. The last corner? Nine tenths.

Slow in, fast out. In my experience so far, any corner where I upshift is one where exit speed is paramount for good lap times. Exit speeds suffer if you're on the ragged edge through any given corner, for obvious reasons. It doesn't matter if that corner flows into the next one, but it sure as hell does matter if you're heading out onto a straight.

At NHIS, I had to upshift in three (THREE!) corners in order to get the best out of my SRT4. When done right, however, that car would eat E36 M3s for breakfast and not even burp.

Bruce

PS - I have yet to experience a vehicle where stability control doesn't kill lap times, so I always disable it.

Last edited by bruce.augenstein@comcast.; 03-31-2008 at 11:53 PM. Reason: Spelling
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      04-01-2008, 01:21 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
PS - I have yet to experience a vehicle where stability control doesn't kill lap times, so I always disable it.
You do realize that the "company line" from both BMW and Ferrari is that their high end cars such as the M3 and 599 will be faster around most circuits with most of the "fancy electronics" turned on? As well the M3 should probably be in EDC = normal rather than sport for the best lap times. The point is that the systems now have such a fast response time, offer enough slip/yaw to be useful and can actually help the car and driver by controlling brakes individually. Again just to be clear this is all my understanding based on listening/interviews/etc. not personal experience with these cars.

I wholeheartedly agree that more crude/slow/primitive systems hamper serious performance driving rather than help and this I know from both direct and indirect evidence.
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