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      03-23-2008, 07:11 PM   #243
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This is a NATIONAL case.

I guarantee the press would run with this. The is a case of fraud. This is a dream story for a news organization. A company defrauding a consumer, and even better, just telling them to go f-off. Anyone across the country would come to his defense. By the end of this this dealership should be banned from ebay have some sort of punishment from the commerce department of Nebraska and give this guy the car!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtPE View Post
may, or may not help...

if the dealership spends big ad $$$, they won't touch this, they know who butters their bread...

especially after their legal tells them this is a non-case, only a mistake...
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      03-23-2008, 07:13 PM   #244
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Moose, you sir are clueless.

I couldn't make it past the 9th page.

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But the simple fact of the matter is if the guy called "nervously" he obviously made a mistake in the post and probably was hoping he wouldn't run into the person he did.
Um, the guy called immediatly after the auction ended. In other words, he was watching the auction and was nervous at the outcome.

This was no mistake. He knowlingly placed the auction with no reserve and at a pricepoint for which he would never sell the car. This is illegal.
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      03-23-2008, 07:13 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by mooseman View Post
So why don't we set our "jaded" natures aside that allow us to assume the dealer is trying to "screw" the little man and find out more before we lynch the salesman.
No one is lynching the salesman. They took a shot and lost. When a customer realizes that they didn't have to pay $30k over MSRP for an m3, but did, does the customer get the 30k back?
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      03-23-2008, 07:14 PM   #246
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I saw this on Autoblog and felt obliged to come here and post. Sorry to hear about your problems and I hope they honor their agreement.

I guess one lesson can be learned from this: anyone would be a fool to buy from BMW of Lincoln, Nebraska.
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      03-23-2008, 07:17 PM   #247
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wow I leave a day and the thread jumps from 4 to 12... Seems like theres a few e-thugs joining the boards to spark BS...

Just let it go and support dooma, if not then just gtfo, simple as that. The facts has already been said, no need for anymore shit from people that have no clue whats going on...

Keep on keeping on Dooma!
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      03-23-2008, 07:19 PM   #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickc View Post
Where's the anger and hostility?? Please elaborate..

In your world it seems like anyone can get on eBay and purchase items without expecting to ever follow through with payment... or vice versa. Are you an anarchist? You are forgetting that this was a documented auction. Now the seller must deal with the consequences of failure to follow through with auction terms. eBay is synonymous with Sothebys in this regard. As someone mentioned earlier in plain English.. a deal is a deal. Man-up and accept it.
the anger is in your words...

a bid price on a million dollar project can be rescinded with no more than a fax stating that you have made an error...period...no proof required...

so even if you took a chance and 'lowballed' the bid, you can claim 'error' and rescind your bid...it's the LAW...

the same will apply here....
so I guess a deal is a deal is not as simple as you make it, that's why we have laws and lawyers, to sort it out....
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      03-23-2008, 07:20 PM   #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseman View Post
As for the second, a contract requires both parties to fully understand what they are agreeing to, hence why most States allow "back out" periods for "buyers remorse" and similar for sellers, contractors. In fact, in most States I'm aware, in contracting there is an allowable time period when/if one spouse agrees to a contract the other can back out.
They entered into a bilateral contract not a unilateral contract; there was no misunderstanding. The intent, was to start at a price and let market inflate the asking price; which unfortunately did not happen. Furthermore, many states (California is one) follow the Uniform Commercial Code, for which merchants are held to a different tier of verbal/written requirements over what determines and triggers a contract to become binding. Sorry, but negotiations between a consumer and merchant are much different than your example of a civil contract between spouses.
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Last edited by DJ9; 03-23-2008 at 07:42 PM.
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      03-23-2008, 07:23 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by italy430 View Post
ok moosef**k.... i just read that you're from Tennessee so maybe that should explain a lot. we are in the 21st century so wake up! virtually everything is done online these days, online banking, online shopping, online get-your-ass-wiped.... EVERYTHING!! A signature was originally required to ensure that Mr. B was actually Mr. B. But if you turn your little pea sized brain on for one second you'll realize that having someone's personal information is a lot more secure than having a signature. Thats how ALL online shopping and banking outfits run today. Welcome to 2008. It makes VERY CLEAR that when you commit to buying something on ebay that you enter into a legal binding contract between you and the seller or buyer, whichever the case may be. And the nice thing about technology is that you can TRACE everything so it is MORE SECURE than a signature. I really would like to smash this into your head because I'm not sure you really get anything that anybody on this forum is saying.

And you say it was a "mistake" and you should let him off cause he was a nice guy and called you. Well thats very sweet, but get into reality. Have you ever had to take responsibility for your actions? You don't appear to have, otherwise you would know that if you screw up you have to take responsibility for your actions. Also, the dealer can't play the thing that "we didn't know" or anything like that. They changed the buy it now TWICE. It is the company's fault for this, not an individuals. If they assigned a new salesman to put it up on ebay, a site where he didn't have any knowledge of, how should he have to pay? IT IS THE DEALER'S RESPONSIBILITY!!!!! Please educate yourself in the real world and sign up for Intro to the 21st Century. I believe they only offer it in Tennessee.....
Wow. That was some tirade. I think you'll find I'm likely right on the technical side of this. There is a reason why credit card companies charge higher rates for online CC purchases than hand swiped signed copies. The main reason is that it is much easier to dispute an online purchase if there isn't a signed copy of the contract somewhere. Signed swiped copies have more secure records because you have proof of agreement. Its also why they give you the copy and they keep the original with your signature.

CC companies have tried to mitigate the problem by putting the 3 number security code on the back to make sure you have actual physical ownership of the card, but it isn't a guarantee.

But seriously, they just recently allowed electronic check transmittal from bank to bank and did away with the big clearing houses that used to physically handle bank to bank check transfers, and that was a HUUUUGE legal deal that requires a bunch of secure terminals and custom software (Carreker-Antinori was a big player in that, used to be partially owned subsidiary of SAIC).

Anyhow, physical signatures are generally still the only iron-clad form of contractual agreements, although maybe in the future they'll find a way to make electronic agreements less susceptible to fraud.

Anyhow, thats AFAIK, but of course at leeest thaz wut I red on sum fansee innertubes wayub site.
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      03-23-2008, 07:23 PM   #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M308CAH View Post
This is a NATIONAL case.

I guarantee the press would run with this. The is a case of fraud. This is a dream story for a news organization. A company defrauding a consumer, and even better, just telling them to go f-off. Anyone across the country would come to his defense. By the end of this this dealership should be banned from ebay have some sort of punishment from the commerce department of Nebraska and give this guy the car!
they are spending 12 bil/wk in Iraq, 1/2 of it can't be accounted for, and this ebay car deal is a national case?

pharma companies sell drugs that kill you, and they know it, and yet they continue to so, and this ebay case trumps that?

the best he can do it quietly negotiate with the dealer...the more PR, the more they will dig their heels in...mistakes are common, and they will not allow a precedence to be set...

who do you think ebay will side with? the consumer who pays nothing, or the seller who pays fees and a % ?

do the math
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      03-23-2008, 07:25 PM   #252
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Just saw this on autoblog. I hope it ends well!
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      03-23-2008, 07:29 PM   #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyBeemer View Post
No one is lynching the salesman. They took a shot and lost. When a customer realizes that they didn't have to pay $30k over MSRP for an m3, but did, does the customer get the 30k back?
If he did it through eBay and did it before he signed any documents and transferred money, then yes he also could not be forced to continue with the purchase. The dealer might have a suit to seek recompense for the $1.75 (or whatever it costs) to re-list the auction, but I don't think they'd seek it out.

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      03-23-2008, 07:29 PM   #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseman View Post
...As for the second, a contract requires both parties to fully understand what they are agreeing to, hence why most States allow "back out" periods for "buyers remorse" and similar for sellers, contractors. In fact, in most States I'm aware, in contracting there is an allowable time period when/if one spouse agrees to a contract the other can back out...
In California, there is no "Cooling Off Period" on auto sales. In every dealership i have ever been to this has always been posted in plain view of customers. I'm not sure on the legality of this, but i'm assuming that since this auction was not limited to certain states, the no cooling off period for the buyer would still apply, as he is from California.
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      03-23-2008, 07:31 PM   #255
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Minor Update: Email response from Fil, GM at dealer.

So I sent an email to the dealer, linking m3post.com and autoblog this afternoon so he could get a feel for how big this has gotten. Coincidentally, this is when the moosman showed up too. My email to Fil:
(Note, nothing has been edited)
Fil,

As I mentioned, many people are outraged at this situation. Autoblog.com, a major automotive site has just now picked this story up.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/23/b...-hon/#comments
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127993

I am absolutely determined to follow-up on this to the end, to get the deal I am entitled to.
I hope we can get this resolved monday.

Fils response?

As repeated...I will converse with our corporate office. It feels like your harassing me. I now have people harassing me also. Easter is a special day for my religious beliefs, please let my family enjoy. Do not email anymore threats. Fil


I have never threatened Fil in anyway, but I think he is perceiving this situation as a threat to him. Granted the Easter thing, I can appreciate but I dont expect him to reply to emails written today. As for people harassing him, well thats beyond my control as I don't know why they are calling Fil. It could be for other transgressions commited by the dealership.That said, please dont threaten Fil at the dealership
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      03-23-2008, 07:33 PM   #256
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I am also an engineer. I work for a large medical company.

I agree with what you are saying about the scope of this issue.

I disagree that you are saying that this is a mistake. It is obvious that
the dealership retracted their offer. The spotlight needs to be put on this in order for any resolution to take place. Quiet negotiating does not work with a company who is pulling the rug out from a guy who won a bidding on ebay. They need to have outside pressure put on them, legally or otherwise.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtPE View Post
they are spending 12 bil/wk in Iraq, 1/2 of it can't be accounted for, and this ebay car deal is a national case?

pharma companies sell drugs that kill you, and they know it, and yet they continue to so, and this ebay case trumps that?

the best he can do it quietly negotiate with the dealer...the more PR, the more they will dig their heels in...mistakes are common, and they will not allow a precedence to be set...

who do you think ebay will side with? the consumer who pays nothing, or the seller who pays fees and a % ?

do the math
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      03-23-2008, 07:34 PM   #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseman View Post
A lot of assumptions.
I am primarily making assumptions that the words you post with are at least vaguely rooted in truth. For example (and this is just one particular one) these:

"No wonder I never get anywhere in this world. I'm too worried about morals, ethics, principles, empathy and the other useless traits that tend to keep good guys down."

Of course if you are just fabricating a persona entirely in an attempt to add validity to your stance, then ironically you've only accomplished throwing any integrity you may have had out the window. Such a situation will not be detectable here, so rather than dwell on that, I have chosen to treat you as a genuine entity and replied accordingly. But even if I am wrong, at least we don't end up with your bizarre reverse-straw-man argument clouding up and otherwise productive show of support and posterity for the OP.

So then, on with the discussion, dear down-trodden mooseman.

Quote:
It is possible the salesman used the "NO RESERVE" as a gimmick to try and boost bids. But we don't know. So why don't we set our "jaded" natures aside that allow us to assume the dealer is trying to "screw" the little man and find out more before we lynch the salesman.
I have not accused the dealership of trying to screw anyone. I am merely maintaining that there is no moral high ground that can be taken which will leave the dispute on the side of dealership since they have already precluded such consideration by attempting deception before and by treating dooma with disrespect on the phone.

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      03-23-2008, 07:39 PM   #258
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It's clear that mooseman knows very little about contract law and the mechanics of how an ebay auction functions. We've all provided him with countless examples of why the dealership (and he) are wrong. He chooses not to retort when the facts are staring him in the face. He is just sending this conversation in circles.

Don't feed the troll anymore and he will go away...
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      03-23-2008, 07:41 PM   #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dooma350 View Post
Minor Update: Email response from Fil, GM at dealer.

So I sent an email to the dealer, linking m3post.com and autoblog this afternoon so he could get a feel for how big this has gotten. Coincidentally, this is when the moosman showed up too. My email to Fil:
(Note, nothing has been edited)
Fil,

As I mentioned, many people are outraged at this situation. Autoblog.com, a major automotive site has just now picked this story up.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/23/b...-hon/#comments
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127993

I am absolutely determined to follow-up on this to the end, to get the deal I am entitled to.
I hope we can get this resolved monday.

Fils response?

As repeated...I will converse with our corporate office. It feels like your harassing me. I now have people harassing me also. Easter is a special day for my religious beliefs, please let my family enjoy. Do not email anymore threats. Fil


I have never threatened Fil in anyway, but I think he is perceiving this situation as a threat to him. Granted the Easter thing, I can appreciate but I dont expect him to reply to emails written today. As for people harassing him, well thats beyond my control as I don't know why they are calling Fil. It could be for other transgressions commited by the dealership.That said, please dont threaten Fil at the dealership
It's odd how Fil decided to work today with this being such a sacred holiday for him and his family.
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      03-23-2008, 07:42 PM   #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseman View Post
If he did it through eBay and did it before he signed any documents and transferred money, then yes he also could not be forced to continue with the purchase. The dealer might have a suit to seek recompense for the $1.75 (or whatever it costs) to re-list the auction, but I don't think they'd seek it out.


So now you have moved onto what the legal obligations are? I thought you were the one saying that the reason not to go after the dealership was because it was wrong to expect them to take a loss on this deal (recall your original post)...not because contract law was on their side.

The lawyers on the board have given their opinion about that, I'll go with their opinions on the law. Debating the ethics was kinda interesting though.
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      03-23-2008, 07:42 PM   #261
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Go for it mate. Take them to court! Its been done before!

[quote=dooma350;2352345]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtPE View Post
good luck on making the case in court....
you'll spend more than you save, and recovering legal fees in a case like this?
QUOTE]

I initially felt the same way in the beginning, but not anymore. Say I spend an additional 5K, its been worth it considering the amount of nagative publicity the dealership has gotten. Even if I dont get the car 60K thru BMW of Lincoln, I will have brought enough attention to this slimshady unethical dealer that they will think twice in the future before pulling this type of BS. And that dude Michael who was laughing being part of the big bad husker auto group? Im sure he isnt laughing anymore!

Oh, And I'll still be getting my M3 so its cool.
Hey mate!

Not sure if anyone else has pointed this out but in Australia. We had a similar case not too long ago in regards to a World War 2 vintage plane being sold on ebay.

Stories:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/web/ebay-...648121130.html
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news...648124637.html

I bet there is someone out there that would be more than happy to hit this dealership up, not only for the car but also for the trouble.

Good luck mate and start ringing.
- Marcin
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      03-23-2008, 07:43 PM   #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dooma350 View Post
Minor Update: Email response from Fil, GM at dealer.

So I sent an email to the dealer, linking m3post.com and autoblog this afternoon so he could get a feel for how big this has gotten. Coincidentally, this is when the moosman showed up too. My email to Fil:
(Note, nothing has been edited)
Fil,

As I mentioned, many people are outraged at this situation. Autoblog.com, a major automotive site has just now picked this story up.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/23/b...-hon/#comments
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127993

I am absolutely determined to follow-up on this to the end, to get the deal I am entitled to.
I hope we can get this resolved monday.

Fils response?

As repeated...I will converse with our corporate office. It feels like your harassing me. I now have people harassing me also. Easter is a special day for my religious beliefs, please let my family enjoy. Do not email anymore threats. Fil


I have never threatened Fil in anyway, but I think he is perceiving this situation as a threat to him. Granted the Easter thing, I can appreciate but I dont expect him to reply to emails written today. As for people harassing him, well thats beyond my control as I don't know why they are calling Fil. It could be for other transgressions commited by the dealership.That said, please dont threaten Fil at the dealership
Since when are people in the car business religious?

Maybe only when it comes to money
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      03-23-2008, 07:44 PM   #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dooma350 View Post
As repeated...I will converse with our corporate office. It feels like your harassing me. I now have people harassing me also. Easter is a special day for my religious beliefs, please let my family enjoy. Do not email anymore threats. Fil
Well look at what we have here. It almost appears as if someone is actually laying early groundwork for a potential counter civil suit. Suddenly now Fil is somehow the victim here?

It should be emphasized here that Fil just could honor the deal that his dealership made instead. That would solve the whole thing.

Quote:
I have never threatened Fil in anyway, but I think he is perceiving this situation as a threat to him. Granted the Easter thing, I can appreciate but I dont expect him to reply to emails written today.
Emailing someone an update is not threatening them - its keeping them in the loop so they can make an informed decision. And yes - if Fil wants more time with his family well then - Fil if you are reading - here's a suggestion: shut the computer down for the evening and pick back up tomorrow morning.

I do agree with you that if anyone really has threatened Fil in some way, that's totally not cool.
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      03-23-2008, 07:46 PM   #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ9 View Post
They entered into a bilateral contract not a unilateral contract; there was no misunderstanding. The intent, was to start at a price and let market inflate the asking price; which unfortunately did not happen. Furthermore, many states follow the Uniform Commercial Code, for which merchants are held to a different tier of verbal/written requirements over what determines and triggers a contract to become binding. Sorry, but negotiations between a consumer and merchant are much different than your example of a civil contract between spouses.
Sure, no doubt that is often the case. But I'm fairly certain that requirements for binding don't include ones over the internet with no good faith exchanges. I think you'll find that even if the dealer was being purposely sleazy, there is little legal recourse.

And I think you misunderstood my post regarding spouses. One spouse can break a contract that the other signed regarding contracting. So, you might with full knowledge hire someone to put in windows in your house, but your wife could nullify the contract even though she isn't a signatory, and that would be JUST LIKE HER, ALWAYS MEDDLING! But it was an example as proof of laws looking to protect those involved or even affected by the contract.

Our argument was regarding the "moral basis" of laws. And those are there to protect both buyer and seller.
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