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      03-23-2008, 06:45 PM   #221
mooseman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
mooseman, let me give you a proper introduction to our boards..........:finger:

Well, you are an E46 driver, so you're a poseur anyhow.

LOL.
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      03-23-2008, 06:46 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by mooseman View Post
No one has yet to explain to me the actual loss in this situation. No earnest money was exchanged. They didn't FedEx the guy the signed paperwork, then back out.

So, how did he get screwed? I honestly really am trying to understand what his actual loss is. Someone, please, put it into language I can understand, in small one syllable words, I am from Tennessee.
It has not been stated yet, but if dooma's intention really was to keep this vehicle, he would have paid the $1,000-5,000 required deposit to keep up his end of the "contract."

What I want to know is how the heck did Michael Barrett not notice there was no reserve set, if this really was an honest mistake. As pointed out earlier he consistently checked the ad everyday and made changes to the Buy It Now price twice in two days. Not only that, but if Barrett's intentions were to sell it with BIN and Reserve, he would have noticed that right below the current bid price it did not say "Reserve Not Met."
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      03-23-2008, 06:48 PM   #223
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It's obvious that the dealer was looking to capitalize on the market for these cars. With many dealers price gouging this car with a $30,000 “Market Adjustment” Fee, the dealer’s motives behind this auction are blatantly apparent. Starting the auction at $60,000 implies that price as the reserve amount. As many have pointed out, this car was advertised as the “Lowest Priced” M3 on the Internet.

Dooma, I hope I see you driving around PV in your new M3. Don't give up; you won this auction. Lincoln BMW is in violation of their contract and the policies set forth through eBay. When they listed this item they knowingly accepted these terms. EBay makes the terms of their auction well known for all sellers and buyers; they do not place these terms in fine print. From the looks of the auction page layout, they have been conducting business through eBay for sometime and know how auctions work.

If I were a lawyer I would pick up this case on contingency or even for free, as it would be great publicity for your firm and most likely not a lot of work.

Another option would be to have a news reporter call up the dealership on your behalf letting the dealership know that they are being recorded. I was listening to “This American Life” and some lady had a problem with her phone service provider (MCI) giving her the runaround about charges on her bill totaling almost $1,000 and holding her accountable for these erroneous charges. When Ira Glass called up and let them know he was working on a piece about this lady’s problems, MCI’s tone changed completely.

Here's a link to the episode. It's Act 2. This American Life

As for Mooseman… Are you for real? I really don’t know what to say about you. If you really think this was a mistake on the dealer’s part, your logic is flawed and you are very disconnected from reality.
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      03-23-2008, 06:48 PM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickc View Post
First off, get an eBay for dummies book, throw some popcorn in the microwave and read the chapter on Reserve Price. Sellers are not required to state "NO RESERVE" anywhere in their listings. This is an option the seller toggles either "on" or "off" while setting up the listing. When a buyer views the listing, the buyer can easily tell by looking at the main (top) part of a listing if there is a reserve price or not set by the seller. Once again, it does not need to be stated anywhere in the listing, some buyers choose to state "NO RESERVE" in their listing merely to draw more attention.

Second, he has a strong case because this was an auction. This is not an ad in autotrader or some newspaper classified section. This was eBay. The seller knew exactly what he was getting into and lost. That's the bottom line.

first get a book on manners and common decency...why so hostile and angry?
has 'the man' got you down?

good luck on making the case in court....
you'll spend more than you save, and recovering legal fees in a case like this?
I've discussed this with my cousin, who is a lawyer, and he pulled up this thread and read it...

he said the only chance the OP has is a 'good will' offering from the dealer, the dealer has the law on his side, and has no obligation to sell the car...
the court will not 'force' him to sell the car, or pay damages, when none can be proven...
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      03-23-2008, 06:49 PM   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseman View Post
Well, you are an E46 driver, so you're a poseur anyhow.

LOL.
To the idiots who think booma is the immoral person here, take a gander at this eBay page:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/buy/motors-bidding.html

"Remember that each bid you place enters you into a binding contract. If you win a listing, you’re obligated to complete the transaction. Read the User Agreement for details."

"While using the Sites, you will not:

-use the Sites if you are not able to form legally binding contracts, are under the age of 18, or are temporarily or indefinitely suspended from our Sites."


End of story.
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      03-23-2008, 06:49 PM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseman View Post
No one has yet to explain to me the actual loss in this situation. No earnest money was exchanged. They didn't FedEx the guy the signed paperwork, then back out.

So, how did he get screwed? I honestly really am trying to understand what his actual loss is. Someone, please, put it into language I can understand, in small one syllable words, I am from Tennessee.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AML View Post
It has not been stated yet, but if dooma's intention really was to keep this vehicle, he would have paid the $1,000-5,000 required deposit.
He arranged financing before the auction ended, and I think he said they called him 20 mins later to say they weren't selling him the car.

Oh, how was he damaged? Well, what if he had planned to put a deposit on a different car, but once he bid on this one he couldn't in good faith negotiate on another vehicle since he had every intention of following through with this purchase? Not to mention whatever time he has spent attempting to get this honored?
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      03-23-2008, 06:51 PM   #227
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> you are an E46 driver, so you're a poseur anyhow

You diminish your own credibility with such a response. I tried turning-up the
the intelligence of your post, but the knob marked "Brightness", doesn't seem
to accomplish the expected task. Please [re]check you end ... I suspect that
the problem is PEBKAC.
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      03-23-2008, 06:53 PM   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erdoran View Post
A deal is a deal.

Simple enough?
Well, thats true, but I'm trying to figure out the "screwed" part. People back out of deals all the time. That might make you less likely to do business with them in the future, but he hasn't shown a "loss" other than being bummed out by not getting a cheap Bimmer, sweet as that might be.

All I'm saying is that everyone has assumed the dumb-ass salesman knew what the hell he was doing. I can't imagine he did, but that might be the case.

IF he did it intentionally he deserves a sock party for sure.
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      03-23-2008, 06:53 PM   #229
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It’s a business transaction and the dealership should honor the sale. Businesses everywhere make mistakes and they have to pay for their mistakes. Oil companies, like Chevron, Shell and BP makes plenty of mistakes and have paid millions of dollars for it. This situation is not any different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseman View Post
I am fully aware of everything you posted, as I can both read and comprehend. But the simple fact of the matter is if the guy called "nervously" he obviously made a mistake in the post and probably was hoping he wouldn't run into the person he did.

Had it happened to me? I would have said "Hey, I thought that price was kinda low. Oh well, I'm not out anything." And they might have even offered me a discount on the vehicle I was looking for.

But, see, I'm a reasonable individual with the capacity to understand that corporations are big groups of people, people that make mistakes. And I don't try and crucify people every time they make one.

But, whatever. As for being from the dealership, don't kid yourself, I'm really an actual thinking human being, just like the poor bastard thats probably barely holding on to his job right now. But, remember this moment sometime in the future when you make a mistake and the world crashes in on you. Remember this and recall that what goes around comes around. Remember this and recall that you put some poor slob though hell because he screwed up the reserve price.

But, back to being a victim and pitching a fit. Ohh, the humanity!
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      03-23-2008, 06:54 PM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseman View Post
Bitter? Heck no, just the opposite.
I'm not convinced; I do think you come off bitter and jaded. But, I won't argue that point further with you. I simply wish you all the best with the path you've chosen for yourself. And I do mean that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseman View Post
No one has yet to explain to me the actual loss in this situation.
There need be no loss. All that is germane here is that:

a) There are laws against breech of contract. Why those laws are in place is an exercise you can complete on your own. I suspect that you already know that there is a firm moral basis for many laws, and that this one is included therein.

b) This situation was a breech of contract. A reasonably accomplished level of abstract thought and deductive reasoning will allow (ney - will force) you to see this.

Good work mooseman - you are growing.
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      03-23-2008, 06:55 PM   #231
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Dooma350,

I also saw this at Autoblog and wanted to join in. Besides the good advice about contacting the AG of Nebraska, Nebraska's DOT and BMW, I'd also go along with contacting the AG of California. eBay, along with other sellers over the Internet, has attracted the attention of not only state legislators attempting to recover loss tax $ but also Congress.

Somewhere in the back of my mind is the fact that eBay, along with others, is considered as interstate commerce and thus falls under the federal government's venue. Either you were going to travel to Nebraska and get the car (registering it where?) to drive it back or Husker was going to truck it to you.

Wonder if the multi-billion dollar corporation wants to take this sort of heat? I sort of doubt it and would be almost sure somebody's head will be on the chopping block over this. At the very least, that person will have to make restitution to the company for the $$ difference.

But don't take this lying down. At this point, you should also be reimbursed for all the aggravation you've had to put up with. If they do come back at you with the offer of the car at the price you've bid, they should also ship it to you for free, pay for whatever taxes are due or, if you travel to the dealership (to inspect it and pick it up), pay all your time and travel expenses. Something tells me you don' want it serviced there so make sure they give you all the perks such as tire warranty, etc. for the trip back.

best of luck,
Bill

Last edited by prrbill; 03-23-2008 at 06:57 PM. Reason: left out word
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      03-23-2008, 06:55 PM   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erdoran View Post
He arranged financing before the auction ended, and I think he said they called him 20 mins later to say they weren't selling him the car.

Oh, how was he damaged? Well, what if he had planned to put a deposit on a different car, but once he bid on this one he couldn't in good faith negotiate on another vehicle since he had every intention of following through with this purchase? Not to mention whatever time he has spent attempting to get this honored?
those are not recoverable damages...he lost nothing, you can't sue for lost opportunity...plus there are other cars out there, this was not the last...

contracts can and are voided if a mistake was made in negotiating them...

his time is no different than a lawyers, can't be recovered, even if he spent time and missed work, that his choice...

I'm involved in a lot of contract law...I'm going to check the law...BOTH parties may have a cancellation period after inking a contract...
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      03-23-2008, 06:55 PM   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseman View Post
Except that if you sell a car on Barrett-Jackson there are signed copies of legally binding contracts. I can't say for 100% sure, but I fairly certain that clicking "accept" on a web page has been less than a solid form of making a legal declaration, hence the need for actual signed contracts even today.

It is no different if a buyer clicks "Buy It Now" then backs out. The only recourse is with eBay, not legal. But, it doesn't detract from the issue that it was very likely an honest mistake, and now everyone wants to crucify the poor bastards.
then why did they choose not to remove the auction or even edit it,i have never sold on ebay but i have bought and even that is a long process at times,so i find it hard to beleive this was a mistake as you put it.i also find it hard to beleive that ebay does not give the option to edit or in fact immediatley end an auction at the buyers discretion especially since the seller was definetly aware of what was going on with the auction,the only mistake he made was calling the guy 15 min after it ended and telling him no
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      03-23-2008, 06:56 PM   #234
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Am I the only one who sees that it doesnt really matter if they are legally obligated or not...bottom line is the last m3 story to be big news, was a dealership asking for 100k.
This is our big 'ol FU to dealerships.
They made a mistake, yes, they risked no reserve in hopes of yeilding big profit...in business mistakes cost money. I'm only glad to see a dealership pay for their mistake that, had it gone the other way, would of cost a consumer a premium for a car available without one.
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      03-23-2008, 06:56 PM   #235
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(I'm another who saw this thread and just signed up!)

1) don't forget that no dealer -- much less a large dealer group -- pays invoice for their vehicles. There are three basic sources of additional discounts from invoice:

* standard discount for payment (typically 3%). Yes, basically, if you pay the bill, you get 3 percent off.

* volume discounts for reaching goals. Yep, additional discounts based on reaching certain volume goals

* dealer "holdbacks" which are effectively payments back to the dealer after the vehicle is sold to help pay for advertising, etc.

This is very simplified, so please don't waste time dissecting this breakdown, just know that every dealer in the US can sell cars at invoice all day long and not be losing money on them. BMW might have a slightly different setup than described, as I don't have exposure to BMW dealer operations specifically, but broadly speaking, the above will apply.

As for our friend the Moose, talk is cheap in a forum and it's easy to say "yes, I would hold the buyer to the same standards if the buyer had made a mistake in bidding" -- but would he in real life?

The truth is that the dealership is wrong, and just because they don't fully understand how to use ebay isn't an excuse.

Best of luck in this quest!

Steve
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      03-23-2008, 06:57 PM   #236
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The mere fact that there is a winning bidder in this auction -after all, eBay is investigating and the dealer offered a new price deal after the fact- is enough to put this "RESERVE/NO RESERVE" to rest, guys.

The dealer "game" did not work out. It backfired. Nothing else to see here.

Now, I still believe that eBay is the one that will decide this and that the OP will win this just by principle and as long as he play under eBay rules. Outside of that eBay domain, it could become a nasty legal fight if the dealership stick to their guns. They already have shown that they are stupid by playing the game of "Jesus Toast/Indiana Corn Flake" with an M3 that could have been sold at MSRP or even slightly under without any problem and could have generated many more sales to this dealership while keeping the catchphrase of the "08 M3 LOWEST PRICE ON EBAY" accurate. The gamble did not work, that they are dragging this instead of just write this off as a stupid move prove to me that in fact they are stupid...

So the OP is dealing with very stupid people that could drag this until the next generation M3 shows up if eBay doesn't enforce their own rules, IMO.
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      03-23-2008, 06:57 PM   #237
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Who Thinks Mooseman Should Shut The F**k Up?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseman View Post
Except that if you sell a car on Barrett-Jackson there are signed copies of legally binding contracts. I can't say for 100% sure, but I fairly certain that clicking "accept" on a web page has been less than a solid form of making a legal declaration, hence the need for actual signed contracts even today.

It is no different if a buyer clicks "Buy It Now" then backs out. The only recourse is with eBay, not legal. But, it doesn't detract from the issue that it was very likely an honest mistake, and now everyone wants to crucify the poor bastards.
ok moosef**k.... i just read that you're from Tennessee so maybe that should explain a lot. we are in the 21st century so wake up! virtually everything is done online these days, online banking, online shopping, online get-your-ass-wiped.... EVERYTHING!! A signature was originally required to ensure that Mr. B was actually Mr. B. But if you turn your little pea sized brain on for one second you'll realize that having someone's personal information is a lot more secure than having a signature. Thats how ALL online shopping and banking outfits run today. Welcome to 2008. It makes VERY CLEAR that when you commit to buying something on ebay that you enter into a legal binding contract between you and the seller or buyer, whichever the case may be. And the nice thing about technology is that you can TRACE everything so it is MORE SECURE than a signature. I really would like to smash this into your head because I'm not sure you really get anything that anybody on this forum is saying.

And you say it was a "mistake" and you should let him off cause he was a nice guy and called you. Well thats very sweet, but get into reality. Have you ever had to take responsibility for your actions? You don't appear to have, otherwise you would know that if you screw up you have to take responsibility for your actions. Also, the dealer can't play the thing that "we didn't know" or anything like that. They changed the buy it now TWICE. It is the company's fault for this, not an individuals. If they assigned a new salesman to put it up on ebay, a site where he didn't have any knowledge of, how should he have to pay? IT IS THE DEALER'S RESPONSIBILITY!!!!! Please educate yourself in the real world and sign up for Intro to the 21st Century. I believe they only offer it in Tennessee.....
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      03-23-2008, 06:59 PM   #238
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[quote=ArtPE;2352307]
good luck on making the case in court....
you'll spend more than you save, and recovering legal fees in a case like this?
QUOTE]

I initially felt the same way in the beginning, but not anymore. Say I spend an additional 5K, its been worth it considering the amount of nagative publicity the dealership has gotten. Even if I dont get the car 60K thru BMW of Lincoln, I will have brought enough attention to this slimshady unethical dealer that they will think twice in the future before pulling this type of BS. And that dude Michael who was laughing being part of the big bad husker auto group? Im sure he isnt laughing anymore!

Oh, And I'll still be getting my M3 so its cool.
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      03-23-2008, 07:01 PM   #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveLevin View Post
* dealer "holdbacks" which are effectively payments back to the dealer after the vehicle is sold to help pay for advertising, etc.
BMW doesn't have any.
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      03-23-2008, 07:01 PM   #240
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Quote:
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then why did they choose not to remove the auction or even edit it,i have never sold on ebay but i have bought and even that is a long process at times,so i find it hard to beleive this was a mistake as you put it.i also find it hard to beleive that ebay does not give the option to edit or in fact immediatley end an auction at the buyers discretion especially since the seller was definetly aware of what was going on with the auction,the only mistake he made was calling the guy 15 min after it ended and telling him no

You can absolutely take down an auction at any time. I have listed items and realized I made a mistake on the price, and had to take it down because I couldn't change the price on a live auction.

I don't remember whether you can do that if you have bids, but I think you can cancel all bids and take down the auction (not 100% sure). Regardless, the instant I realized I made a mistake, NOT AFTER THE AUCTION ENDED, I would personally email the highest bidder, apologize, tell them I made a mistake and then relist the item and send them the link.

If you are responsible for listing a $60K+ item you check and recheck, you don't make this kind of mistake. Within the dealership there should be a paper trail where whoever does the typing was given all the listing info, description, etc INCLUDING RESERVE PRICE if there was to be one. For this kind of money it is beyond irresponsible if it was truly a mistake.
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      03-23-2008, 07:03 PM   #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtPE View Post
first get a book on manners and common decency...why so hostile and angry?
has 'the man' got you down?

good luck on making the case in court....
you'll spend more than you save, and recovering legal fees in a case like this?
I've discussed this with my cousin, who is a lawyer, and he pulled up this thread and read it...

he said the only chance the OP has is a 'good will' offering from the dealer, the dealer has the law on his side, and has no obligation to sell the car...
the court will not 'force' him to sell the car, or pay damages, when none can be proven...
Where's the anger and hostility?? Please elaborate..

In your world it seems like anyone can get on eBay and purchase items without expecting to ever follow through with payment... or vice versa. Are you an anarchist? You are forgetting that this was a documented auction. Now the seller must deal with the consequences of failure to follow through with auction terms. eBay is synonymous with Sothebys in this regard. As someone mentioned earlier in plain English.. a deal is a deal. Man-up and accept it.
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      03-23-2008, 07:07 PM   #242
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I'm not convinced; I do think you come off bitter and jaded. But, I won't argue that point further with you. I simply wish you all the best with the path you've chosen for yourself. And I do mean that.



There need be no loss. All that is germane here is that:

a) There are laws against breech of contract. Why those laws are in place is an exercise you can complete on your own. I suspect that you already know that there is a firm moral basis for many laws, and that this one is included therein.

b) This situation was a breech of contract. A reasonably accomplished level of abstract thought and deductive reasoning will allow (ney - will force) you to see this.

Good work mooseman - you are growing.

To the first part, ok, I don't care. If you're good enough to make a deep judgment on a person from 9 posts, gratz. But honestly the only reason I posted was to play the devil's advocate and raise the idea that maybe mob mentality doesn't always produce justice. A lot of assumptions.

As for the second, a contract requires both parties to fully understand what they are agreeing to, hence why most States allow "back out" periods for "buyers remorse" and similar for sellers, contractors. In fact, in most States I'm aware, in contracting there is an allowable time period when/if one spouse agrees to a contract the other can back out.

So, yes, there are moral basis to laws, and they allow distinctions to be drawn when one party or another may be in misunderstanding about what is being offered or purchased.

It is possible the salesman used the "NO RESERVE" as a gimmick to try and boost bids. But we don't know. So why don't we set our "jaded" natures aside that allow us to assume the dealer is trying to "screw" the little man and find out more before we lynch the salesman.

I promise to grow if you will.
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