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      03-21-2008, 02:59 PM   #23
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I find it interesting that those with such obvious dislike for the UN continue to roll out the sanction argument as a reason for war.
I do not believe I "rolled out" a sanctions argument for war. If anything I argued against the idea that the sanctions made Saddam "contained and benign."

I do find it interesting that those with such obvious faith in the UN continue to excuse a nation that willfully defied multiple Chapter 7 Security Council Resolutions over a period of 12 years.

If the UN is to be in any way effective, Chapter 7 resolutions have to be enforced by member states. If not, what are the consequences of defying a "mandatory compliance" resolution?
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      03-21-2008, 03:35 PM   #24
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We ARE succeeding in Iraq. Where once there was a fascist dictatorship which was an avowed enemy of the US, regularly fired on US forces, attempted to assassinate former US Presidents, supported and sheltered terrorists, invaded its neighbors, and slaughtered its own people; there is now a democratically elected government which is allied with the US in the fight against the terrorists. That is a good thing!

Where once in Iraq there was great support for al Qaeda in the Sunni areas of Iraq, where the people joined with al Qaeda and took up arms against the US, there is now hatred for al Qaeda and the people have joined forces with the US and the Iraqi security forces to drive al Qaeda from al Anbar. That is a good thing!

Where once in Iraq there were Shi'ite militias such as the Mahdi Army that controlled vast portions of the country, intimidated the population, and attacked US and Iraqi government forces; today 'al Sadr and his Mahdi Army have been marginalized to near irrelevance. That also is a good thing!
Rhetoric, rhetoric, and once again rhetoric. That is all one needs to bullshit the American People who, unfortunately, like to believe in fairy tales, enjoy heroic epic stories, and generally get excited each time there is a proclaimed battle betweeen "good and evil." What a fucking kindegarted and how easy it is to manipulated with it!

1. "Fascist regime" -- first time I hear such a reference to Saddam.
2. "Supported and sheltered therorist" -- new "hingsight" theory to camouflage the failure of the "weapons of mass destruction" pitch, which ws the main one to justify the war before it had started.
3. "Slaughtered its own people" -- every counrty with the exception of a few does that from time to time, but they haven't been invaded so far.
4. Every other recited "evils" occurred after the war had started and as a result of it. Before the war, Iraq was a secular state with no radical Islamic propaganda. Now it's a safe haven for all kinds of terrorists.

And lastly, how many civilians in Iraq have died since the war started as compared to "slaughtered by Saddam" more than 25 years ago. Huh? How may social infrastructural units were destroyed in the last 5 years? How many kids have died if not of bombings than of hunger and diseases? How many people have lost their jobs? Iraq is crippled for decades now.
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      03-21-2008, 03:56 PM   #25
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We can go over the whole WMD thing again and again. The bottom line is Saddam bet his country and his regime on a bluff and lost. He was more worried about Iran than he was about complying with his ceasefire agreement with the US. He did not think we would go beyond a Desert Fox type action so he maintained the deception that he retained stockpiles of WMD to deter Iran. He was wrong. He miscalculated and he and his country paid the price. It is important to note that the Kaye Report estimated that Iraq could have a CW program up and running in 6 months and Saddam made clear he intended to restart as soon as the sanctions were lifted.
Well, for once, this is an honest admission. The country was punished for its leader's "cocky" behavior towards the Empire of Ultimate Freedom.

So, if the police comes to my house WITHOUT A SEARCH WARRANT and say, "hey you punk, we know you have illegal explosives in your house, open up or else", and I say "fuck off," and they break in, find no explosives, set the house on fire, beat my kids and wife, destroy my personal property, and put me in jail because I allegedly committed domestic violence a few years ago, can they then claim that they have no lialbility for the illegal break-in, search, destruction, etc., and in fact our society is better of if people like me are punished for an offence unrelated to the explosives? Can they also say that our family will be better off after all of that nightmare?
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      03-21-2008, 04:07 PM   #26
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I don't get all the "We are safer" bullshit.

Al Quaeda stronger=we are not safer.
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      03-21-2008, 04:16 PM   #27
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1. If this was the first time you heard Saddam regime and Ba'athism in general referred to as fascist then you just haven't been listening. If Ba'athism is a blend of pan-Arabism and socialism, I am not sure what else to call it other than fascism.

2. Ending Iraq's support for terror groups was a condition of the 1992 ceasefire resolutions, the continuing existence of that support was cited in follow on UNSCR's, by the President in his Oct 2002 speech in Cincinnatti, and by the Congressional Resolution authorizing the use of force in Iraq. It is also important to note that the Clinton Administration cited Bin Laden's ties to Iraq in the indictment they filed in 1998 as well as in their justification for the Sudan bombing that same year. To suggest this is a "hindsight" theory simply illuminates your ignorance.

3. Do you mean to argue that an inability to end all suffering relieves you of relieving some?

4. If an evil is a consequence (intended or unintended) of your actions, is it not your obligation to do everything you can to end it?

Lastly, we may never know how many Iraqis were killed by Saddam nor are the estimates consistent regarding civilian deaths since the invasion. What I do know is that every Iraqi I spoke to, whether Sunni, Shia, Kurd, or Arab expressed to me how much safer they feel when they see US forces patrolling their neighborhood.

As for their infrastructure the vast majority of the damage it currently suffers from pre-dates the invasion.
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      03-21-2008, 04:17 PM   #28
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We are safer in Iraq because we shifted a lot of our troops from Afghanistan, leaving plenty of opportunities for terrorist groups to go use the place as their training camp...
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      03-21-2008, 04:21 PM   #29
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Who exactly appointed US military and government as the world police? You keep talking about how we liberated this and that, and how we end evils, but at the end of the day, we secure economical and strategic interests, and sugarcoat.
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      03-21-2008, 04:26 PM   #30
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Well, for once, this is an honest admission. The country was punished for its leader's "cocky" behavior towards the Empire of Ultimate Freedom.

So, if the police comes to my house WITHOUT A SEARCH WARRANT and say, "hey you punk, we know you have illegal explosives in your house, open up or else", and I say "fuck off," and they break in, find no explosives, set the house on fire, beat my kids and wife, destroy my personal property, and put me in jail because I allegedly committed domestic violence a few years ago, can they then claim that they have no lialbility for the illegal break-in, search, destruction, etc., and in fact our society is better of if people like me are punished for an offence unrelated to the explosives? Can they also say that our family will be better off after all of that nightmare?
Who said anything about "cocky?" I said deceptive and I do not believe it mattered whether the deception was done in a confident or contrite manner.

You analogy is flawed in any number of ways, the first of which is that Saddam agreed to "keep his door open" as a condition of the 1992 ceasefire. Do you believe he should not have been bound by that agreement? What should have been the price for non-compliance?
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      03-21-2008, 04:30 PM   #31
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Who exactly appointed US military and government as the world police? You keep talking about how we liberated this and that, and how we end evils, but at the end of the day, we secure economical and strategic interests, and sugarcoat.
Does the US use its power (economic, military, etc...) to further its own interests? I would sure hope so. Does that mean that others cannot and do benefit as well? I would have to say yes.
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      03-21-2008, 04:43 PM   #32
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Who said anything about "cocky?" I said deceptive and I do not believe it mattered whether the deception was done in a confident or contrite manner.

You analogy is flawed in any number of ways, the first of which is that Saddam agreed to "keep his door open" as a condition of the 1992 ceasefire. Do you believe he should not have been bound by that agreement? What should have been the price for non-compliance?
Deceptive meaning that he "misrepresented" that the Iraq military force was stronger than it was in fact? That's an interesting type of deception.

Well, he did keep his door relatively open, but the country was still set on fire. And the only fair price was of course should have been DEATH -- for him personally and the people in his country.

What comes to mind is:

DON'T MESS WITH TEXAS!
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      03-21-2008, 04:45 PM   #33
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Deceptive meaning that he "misrepresented" that the Iraq military force was stronger than it was in fact? That's an interesting type of deception.

Well, he did keep his door relatively open, but the country was still set on fire. And the only fair price was of course should have been DEATH -- for him personally and the people in his country.

What comes to mind is:

DON'T MESS WITH TEXAS!
Traditionally, the consequence of violating a ceasefire or armistice agreement is the resumption of hostilities, is it not?
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      03-21-2008, 05:00 PM   #34
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That's right. But calling those hostilities a "liberation" is disingenuous. Here is how Bush should have reported on the war:

"We invaded Iraq becuase they violated a ceasefire agreement. A war is a war so we did a lot of collateral damage, including killing innocent civilians. Iraq was our enemy during the Saddam regime and now it's our enemy because there is a bunch of terrorists operating in and from Iraq. We don't know how to end that mess because the initial goals of the war were not very clear. But we won in defeating Saddam, whatever value that had. Now we want to make Iraq our sphere of economic inlfuence so we would expand export of our products, get oil at discounted prices, and furhter attempt to reap econimic benefits in middle East. Period."

That would have been honest. But all this BS about the "world is better off" just makes me nauseated. Who among great corporate interests represented by this administration cares about "the world?" And which part of the world exactly is better of: Europe, Latin America, Africa, Australia? Who did Saddam's regime threaten except countries in the Persian Gulf?

Stop sugarcoating!!! It feels like I'm back in the 1970-80s USSR, where communist leaders used exactly the same rhetoric to justify Afgan war and the like.
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      03-21-2008, 09:08 PM   #35
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I was there as a contractor, I have been retired from active duty for a few years now.

We can go over the whole WMD thing again and again. The bottom line is Saddam bet his country and his regime on a bluff and lost. He was more worried about Iran than he was about complying with his ceasefire agreement with the US. He did not think we would go beyond a Desert Fox type action so he maintained the deception that he retained stockpiles of WMD to deter Iran. He was wrong. He miscalculated and he and his country paid the price. It is important to note that the Kaye Report estimated that Iraq could have a CW program up and running in 6 months and Saddam made clear he intended to restart as soon as the sanctions were lifted.

You are wrong though to suggest that WMD was the only reason for the invasion. I suggest you read the President's speech in Cincinnati and the Congressional Resolution authorizing the use of military force. They lay out the case for war clearly.

It is pointless to concentrate solely on the past though. We are there now and we cannot go back in time so the question is what do we do now and what are the consequences for our actions.

If we stay and allow the Iraqis time to develop their security forces and their government, we may well end up with a real alternative to the authoritarian regimes that currently dominate the area (except Israel and Turkey). Would such a state in the heart of the Arab world be in the best interest of the US? I believe it would be and is something worth fighting for.

What do you believe would happen if we surrendered as you suggest?
Contractor, eh? It figures. It’s all about the Benjamins…You came back loaded, which is OK, you risked your butt out there.

It’ is NOT about Saddam dude, it’s about 4k US soldiers that died, their families and tens of thousands of dead Iraqis.

It’s about $4 gas, half a trillion cost and recession. It’s about decision making. Bluff? Are we playing OK coral now?

You start every sentence with “He”?!?!?! WTF? Media brainwash.

Personification. Find the “bad guy” that justifies the cause. Viva la Halliburton.
Such a state in the Arab world will be a disaster. Do you really think 9-11 happened because they are evildoers that hate our freedom?

Surrender? I never said that. Excuse me Gen. Patton; let’s not start measuring our dicks quite yet. If we can spin the invasion of sovereign country into “Iraqi freedom”, I’m sure we’ll spin withdrawal as “Iraqi independence”.
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      03-21-2008, 09:57 PM   #36
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Contractor, eh? It figures. It’s all about the Benjamins…You came back loaded, which is OK, you risked your butt out there.

It’ is NOT about Saddam dude, it’s about 4k US soldiers that died, their families and tens of thousands of dead Iraqis.

It’s about $4 gas, half a trillion cost and recession. It’s about decision making. Bluff? Are we playing OK coral now?

You start every sentence with “He”?!?!?! WTF? Media brainwash.

Personification. Find the “bad guy” that justifies the cause. Viva la Halliburton.
Such a state in the Arab world will be a disaster. Do you really think 9-11 happened because they are evildoers that hate our freedom?

Surrender? I never said that. Excuse me Gen. Patton; let’s not start measuring our dicks quite yet. If we can spin the invasion of sovereign country into “Iraqi freedom”, I’m sure we’ll spin withdrawal as “Iraqi independence”.
No point arguing with him...
Though, intelligent and well thought how to surf web/libraries...
He is heavily brainwashed to start with -- can't teach an old dog new tricks...
He will put you on "ignore" list once he cannot reply to you...
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      03-21-2008, 11:00 PM   #37
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I do find it interesting that those with such obvious faith in the UN continue to excuse a nation that willfully defied multiple Chapter 7 Security Council Resolutions over a period of 12 years.

If the UN is to be in any way effective, Chapter 7 resolutions have to be enforced by member states. If not, what are the consequences of defying a "mandatory compliance" resolution?
I agree, sanctions should be enforced, but this is a case of selective enforcement used as a crutch for an ill-conceived, poorly executed and grossly expensive war. Meanwhile Afghanistan is still as unstable as it was 5 years ago. Classic case of taking your eye off the ball.

I'm sure you would fully support a military under total control of the UN to enforce sanctions....
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      03-22-2008, 11:15 AM   #38
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That's right. But calling those hostilities a "liberation" is disingenuous. Here is how Bush should have reported on the war:

"We invaded Iraq becuase they violated a ceasefire agreement. A war is a war so we did a lot of collateral damage, including killing innocent civilians. Iraq was our enemy during the Saddam regime and now it's our enemy because there is a bunch of terrorists operating in and from Iraq. We don't know how to end that mess because the initial goals of the war were not very clear. But we won in defeating Saddam, whatever value that had. Now we want to make Iraq our sphere of economic inlfuence so we would expand export of our products, get oil at discounted prices, and furhter attempt to reap econimic benefits in middle East. Period."

That would have been honest. But all this BS about the "world is better off" just makes me nauseated. Who among great corporate interests represented by this administration cares about "the world?" And which part of the world exactly is better of: Europe, Latin America, Africa, Australia? Who did Saddam's regime threaten except countries in the Persian Gulf?

Stop sugarcoating!!! It feels like I'm back in the 1970-80s USSR, where communist leaders used exactly the same rhetoric to justify Afgan war and the like.
I find nothing disingenuous about calling a transition from a brutal dictatorship to a representative government a liberation.

Wow! You really did soak up all that Marxist economic determinist pablum spewed in higher education didn't you? "Sphere of economic interest???", "Reap economic benefits", "Great corporate interests???"

Did it ever occur to you that people and nations act for reasons outside of economics? We liberated Kuwait in 1992, did we get cheap oil from them afterwards? No we didn't.
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      03-22-2008, 11:24 AM   #39
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Contractor, eh? It figures. It’s all about the Benjamins…You came back loaded, which is OK, you risked your butt out there.

It’ is NOT about Saddam dude, it’s about 4k US soldiers that died, their families and tens of thousands of dead Iraqis.

It’s about $4 gas, half a trillion cost and recession. It’s about decision making. Bluff? Are we playing OK coral now?

You start every sentence with “He”?!?!?! WTF? Media brainwash.

Personification. Find the “bad guy” that justifies the cause. Viva la Halliburton.
Such a state in the Arab world will be a disaster. Do you really think 9-11 happened because they are evildoers that hate our freedom?

Surrender? I never said that. Excuse me Gen. Patton; let’s not start measuring our dicks quite yet. If we can spin the invasion of sovereign country into “Iraqi freedom”, I’m sure we’ll spin withdrawal as “Iraqi independence”.
Other than some per diem, I made the same $$ over there as I do here. It is part of the job. Believe me, if I could I would be on active duty again tomorrow.

Those service members who have lost their lives did so fighting for a cause they believe in. if you can't comprehend that then you are a very sad individual. Do not use their loss to rationalize your inability to distinguish good from evil or right from wrong.

Saddam ruled Iraq as his personal fiefdom, speaking of "He" is merely accurate.

I honestly do not give rat's tail about why those lunatics did what they did on 9-11. I merely want to kill those responsible and anyone who contemplates doing something similar.

What you are proposing is surrender, pure and simple. If you want to surrender, it is incumbent on you to state what will happen when we do.
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      03-22-2008, 12:05 PM   #40
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I agree, sanctions should be enforced, but this is a case of selective enforcement used as a crutch for an ill-conceived, poorly executed and grossly expensive war. Meanwhile Afghanistan is still as unstable as it was 5 years ago. Classic case of taking your eye off the ball.

I'm sure you would fully support a military under total control of the UN to enforce sanctions....
The sanctions were a method of enforcement that failed for 12 years. Saddam did not care about the sanctions because he had sufficiently corrupted the Oil for Food program to get what he wanted, the needs of the people of Iraq be damned.

No, I do not support UN control over military forces as they have proven themselves to be incapable countless times.
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      03-22-2008, 12:46 PM   #41
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The sanctions were a method of enforcement that failed for 12 years. Saddam did not care about the sanctions because he had sufficiently corrupted the Oil for Food program to get what he wanted, the needs of the people of Iraq be damned.

No, I do not support UN control over military forces as they have proven themselves to be incapable countless times.
HE??? Hahaha, others did not benefit from it, including the USA???!!! You're so naive sometimes...
I guess you fully support what we did to Cuba after getting spanked in the Bay of Pigs, or fully support us turning our backs on the situation Darfur, or Ruwanda...or where worse dictators kill millions, much more than Saddam did over 40 years... Too bad they have no oil in Ruwanda...
I guess you fully support that we let go of Afghanistan where situation is worse today than 5 years ago, and Taliban controls more land than any time since 2003...

Finally, I guess you support us destroying Iraq and getting rid of Saddam just because he did not obay our rules, since he NEVER hurt us, never caused ANY harm to the US and obviously did not have plans for his huge WMD show...

I guess, you also agree that we cannot just leave without "winning a gold" in Iraq (all mighty USA has to be a WINNER) no matter that we lose on average 2.2 soldiers every day (that they told us) and $400M every day... On the other hand, we lose more than that (2.2 people/day) in this country because they simply cannot afford the healthcare or are left on the streets to die... Or because they cannot affort to pay for their homes any more...

But hey, our great leader has decided to give us an "economic stimulus" of $600/head (kids are worth half!).

Our education level (pre-college) is one of the lowest in the world -- please do not quote gov't rankings as I have not seen my country anywhere in the list and I do know very well where my ed level was getting out of high school over there vs. valedictorian of ANY HS in this country... Our Colleges are basically accessible only to some...

These are all examples thay you asked above where this country has become a VERY sorry ass country and has never been positioned worse in the modern history...
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      03-22-2008, 02:40 PM   #42
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and $400M every day...
Iraq war costs $12b/week which comes down to $1.71b/day...
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      03-22-2008, 03:22 PM   #43
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Iraq war costs $12b/week which comes down to $1.71b/day...
I thought it was $12B/month now...
$12B/wk = $600B/yr. How did the MOFO get the discount for previous 5 years ?
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      03-22-2008, 03:34 PM   #44
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Those service members who have lost their lives did so fighting for a cause they believe in. if you can't comprehend that then you are a very sad individual. Do not use their loss to rationalize your inability to distinguish good from evil or right from wrong.
Soldiers don't fight for a cause, they serve in the military and do what is asked, going above in beyond in many cases. That doesn't constitute believing in a cause. I have at least 4 friends that have, or are currently deployed in Iraq, all excellent soldiers, and none agreeing with the war and the administration's handling of it. Don't speak for everyone in the service, I don't think many will appreciate it.


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I honestly do not give rat's tail about why those lunatics did what they did on 9-11. I merely want to kill those responsible and anyone who contemplates doing something similar.
Pakistan is that way... *points*

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What you are proposing is surrender, pure and simple. If you want to surrender, it is incumbent on you to state what will happen when we do.
No, what he's proposing is withdrawal. What will happen is every faction will mow each other down, until someone much worse than Saddam will come to power, now under religious pretenses. And that will happen regardless of how long we maintain a presense there. Look at Russia, it's bedlam without a strong single governor ruling the country...I don't think Putin is an angel, but what he did with regards to revitilizing Russia as a world power has been extraordinary.

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The sanctions were a method of enforcement that failed for 12 years. Saddam did not care about the sanctions because he had sufficiently corrupted the Oil for Food program to get what he wanted, the needs of the people of Iraq be damned.
The sanctions were put into place to prevent Iraq from producing chemical and nuclear weapons, and after 12 years - there weren't any. You're right, utter failure.

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No, I do not support UN control over military forces as they have proven themselves to be incapable countless times.
When has a UN peacekeeping deployment force proven incapable? The military record is spotless. The fact that UN is careful about deploying them, is another story, which is called diplomacy. Foreign terms to the current administration...

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Did it ever occur to you that people and nations act for reasons outside of economics? We liberated Kuwait in 1992, did we get cheap oil from them afterwards? No we didn't.
You're right, not every nation acts on economic self-interest, but US isn't one of those nations. You're kind of the like the underpants gnomes...Step one, steal underpants, step 3 - profit. Do you not see the missing link in stabilizing an unstable region, making friends within hostile regions...
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