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      03-19-2008, 07:51 PM   #1
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Welcome to crazy!!!! On anniversary, Bush cites big successes in Iraq!!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23698943/
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      03-19-2008, 08:43 PM   #2
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and now we're fighting to protect the economy! wow, the excuses just keep on coming. did you catch an excerpt from an abc news interview with Dick Cheney? he was told that 2/3 of the american people did not support the war, and his answer was an abrupt, dismissive, "So?" can you believe this jag off?
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      03-20-2008, 10:48 AM   #3
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$505b, 3,991 US troops dead, 5 years, aproval 31%.....So?
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      03-20-2008, 12:33 PM   #4
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      03-20-2008, 12:34 PM   #5
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      03-20-2008, 01:27 PM   #6
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I see not much has changed here in the past 7 months or so despite the enormous changes made on the ground in Iraq.

We ARE succeeding in Iraq. Where once there was a fascist dictatorship which was an avowed enemy of the US, regularly fired on US forces, attempted to assassinate former US Presidents, supported and sheltered terrorists, invaded its neighbors, and slaughtered its own people; there is now a democratically elected government which is allied with the US in the fight against the terrorists. That is a good thing!

Where once in Iraq there was great support for al Qaeda in the Sunni areas of Iraq, where the people joined with al Qaeda and took up arms against the US, there is now hatred for al Qaeda and the people have joined forces with the US and the Iraqi security forces to drive al Qaeda from al Anbar. That is a good thing!

Where once in Iraq there were Shi'ite militias such as the Mahdi Army that controlled vast portions of the country, intimidated the population, and attacked US and Iraqi government forces; today 'al Sadr and his Mahdi Army have been marginalized to near irrelevance. That also is a good thing!

Is Iraq a garden spot today? Of course not.

Is Iraq today a Jeffersonian democracy? Don't be ridiculous.

Are we better off today than we were 5, 3, or 2 years ago? You bet we are for the reasons listed above.
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      03-20-2008, 03:11 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
I see not much has changed here in the past 7 months or so despite the enormous changes made on the ground in Iraq.

We ARE succeeding in Iraq. Where once there was a fascist dictatorship which was an avowed enemy of the US, regularly fired on US forces, attempted to assassinate former US Presidents, supported and sheltered terrorists, invaded its neighbors, and slaughtered its own people; there is now a democratically elected government which is allied with the US in the fight against the terrorists. That is a good thing!

Where once in Iraq there was great support for al Qaeda in the Sunni areas of Iraq, where the people joined with al Qaeda and took up arms against the US, there is now hatred for al Qaeda and the people have joined forces with the US and the Iraqi security forces to drive al Qaeda from al Anbar. That is a good thing!

Where once in Iraq there were Shi'ite militias such as the Mahdi Army that controlled vast portions of the country, intimidated the population, and attacked US and Iraqi government forces; today 'al Sadr and his Mahdi Army have been marginalized to near irrelevance. That also is a good thing!

Is Iraq a garden spot today? Of course not.

Is Iraq today a Jeffersonian democracy? Don't be ridiculous.

Are we better off today than we were 5, 3, or 2 years ago? You bet we are for the reasons listed above.
You bet. I know better.
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      03-20-2008, 03:14 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im View Post
You bet. I know better.
Care to elaborate?

By what measure(s) would you argue we have failed in Iraq?
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      03-20-2008, 03:49 PM   #9
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Attacking a sovereign country on false premise. WMD. No connection to 9-11.

4k US lives lost. Tens of thousands of Iraqis dead.

$12b/month cost.

Billions of $ unaccounted for.

No exit strategy.

Un-supported claim that we are safer today than 5 years ago.

US divisiveness about the war.

Lack of public support for the war.

We failed mostly because people of Iraq DON’T want us there and as soon as we leave there will be more religious bloodshed and power struggle. If we stay it will cost us beyond what’s acceptable.

Remember that Sadam was NOT our problem. He was contained and benign. No WMD. Don’t forget that this war was sold to us and the rest of the world on WMD and 9-11 connection.
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      03-20-2008, 03:52 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Care to elaborate?

By what measure(s) would you argue we have failed in Iraq?
are you fucking kidding me? im sorry it sounds rude, dont meant to be rude but i have no other reaction to this
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      03-20-2008, 04:20 PM   #11
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Your argument that the war was premised on 9-11 is a strawman because no one in the Administration ever claimed Iraq was responsible for 9-11.

Did we mistakenly believe that Saddam had stockpiles of WMD? Yes we did.

Was that belief reasonable and shared by every other major intelligence agency in the world? Yes it was. As a matter of fact, Saddam admitted that he intentionally deceived the world into believing he retained a WMD stockpile and had every intention of resuming his programs once the UN sanctions were eased. Sanction, by the way, that were crumbling in large part due to the corruption in the Oil for Food Program.

The lives lost are a tragedy for every family that lost someone but if you believe the casualties in this war have been excessive you lack historical perspective. The same goes for your concern over the dollar cost.

The exit strategy is now and has been from the beginning a simple one: Victory, defined as the removal of the Ba'athist regime and the creation of a popular government that is able to sustain internal security and stability, defends its borders while being non-threatening to its neighbors and an ally in the war on terror.

I would suggest you look at the latest opinion poll of the Iraqis before you make the assertion that we are not wanted there.
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      03-20-2008, 04:21 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mantis View Post
are you fucking kidding me? im sorry it sounds rude, dont meant to be rude but i have no other reaction to this
You don't sound rude, you sound ignorant.
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      03-20-2008, 04:57 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Your argument that the war was premised on 9-11 is a strawman because no one in the Administration ever claimed Iraq was responsible for 9-11.
Read my post carefully. I didnít claim that Bush and his cronies said Iraq was ďresponsibleĒ for 9-11. They claimed that Sadam had strong ties to Al Qaida.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Did we mistakenly believe that Saddam had stockpiles of WMD? Yes we did.
Was that belief reasonable and shared by every other major intelligence agency in the world? Yes it was. As a matter of fact, Saddam admitted that he intentionally deceived the world into believing he retained a WMD stockpile and had every intention of resuming his programs once the UN sanctions were eased. Sanction, by the way, that were crumbling in large part due to the corruption in the Oil for Food Program.
The lives lost are a tragedy for every family that lost someone but if you believe the casualties in this war have been excessive you lack historical perspective. The same goes for your concern over the dollar cost.
So, Iím right? Correct?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
The exit strategy is now and has been from the beginning a simple one: Victory, defined as the removal of the Ba'athist regime and the creation of a popular government that is able to sustain internal security and stability, defends its borders while being non-threatening to its neighbors and an ally in the war on terror.
My strategy is to go to Hollywood, become a star overnight while earning PhD in astrophysics from UC Berkeley. The week after, I plan to win $5 on Cali lottery. I'll keep you posted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
I would suggest you look at the latest opinion poll of the Iraqis before you make the assertion that we are not wanted there.
Polls? I guess suicide bombers donít read them.
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      03-20-2008, 09:04 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im View Post
Read my post carefully. I didnít claim that Bush and his cronies said Iraq was ďresponsibleĒ for 9-11. They claimed that Sadam had strong ties to Al Qaida.
I would recommend you read the Iraqi Perspectives Project, Saddam and Terrorism: Emerging Insights from Captured Iraqi Documents if you doubt Saddam's ties with terrorist organizations including al Qaeda affiliates.

Quote:
So, Iím right? Correct?
Not at all. Saddam was neither "contained" nor "benign." The existence of WMD stockpiles was only one of the reasons given to remove the Ba'athist regime in Iraq. The others: failure to comply with UN Resolutions, support for terrorists, slaughter of his own people were and remain viable.

Quote:
My strategy is to go to Hollywood, become a star overnight while earning PhD in astrophysics from UC Berkeley. The week after, I plan to win $5 on Cali lottery. I'll keep you posted.
Is this some sort of an attempt at analogy?

Quote:
Polls? I guess suicide bombers donít read them.
Do you mean to imply that suicide bombers who target the public are an accurate measure of public opinion?
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      03-21-2008, 01:34 AM   #15
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OK, you are correct. Polls are correct. Iím wrong. Iíll talk to you in 5 years when Baghdad Disney World opens, since weíre winning hearts and minds over there.

Your definition of victory in Iraq is a fairytale. Weíre not even close and recession is knocking on our door. We need to get out of there, except we canít.

1,777 days since
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      03-21-2008, 08:11 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Your argument that the war was premised on 9-11 is a strawman because no one in the Administration ever claimed Iraq was responsible for 9-11.

Did we mistakenly believe that Saddam had stockpiles of WMD? Yes we did.

Was that belief reasonable and shared by every other major intelligence agency in the world? Yes it was. As a matter of fact, Saddam admitted that he intentionally deceived the world into believing he retained a WMD stockpile and had every intention of resuming his programs once the UN sanctions were eased. Sanction, by the way, that were crumbling in large part due to the corruption in the Oil for Food Program.

The lives lost are a tragedy for every family that lost someone but if you believe the casualties in this war have been excessive you lack historical perspective. The same goes for your concern over the dollar cost.

The exit strategy is now and has been from the beginning a simple one: Victory, defined as the removal of the Ba'athist regime and the creation of a popular government that is able to sustain internal security and stability, defends its borders while being non-threatening to its neighbors and an ally in the war on terror.

I would suggest you look at the latest opinion poll of the Iraqis before you make the assertion that we are not wanted there.
YOU, not WE
I never did, and I still believe Bush is a war criminal and shoiuld be sent to Hague
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      03-21-2008, 08:12 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
I see not much has changed here in the past 7 months or so despite the enormous changes made on the ground in Iraq.

We ARE succeeding in Iraq. Where once there was a fascist dictatorship which was an avowed enemy of the US, regularly fired on US forces, attempted to assassinate former US Presidents, supported and sheltered terrorists, invaded its neighbors, and slaughtered its own people; there is now a democratically elected government which is allied with the US in the fight against the terrorists. That is a good thing!

Where once in Iraq there was great support for al Qaeda in the Sunni areas of Iraq, where the people joined with al Qaeda and took up arms against the US, there is now hatred for al Qaeda and the people have joined forces with the US and the Iraqi security forces to drive al Qaeda from al Anbar. That is a good thing!

Where once in Iraq there were Shi'ite militias such as the Mahdi Army that controlled vast portions of the country, intimidated the population, and attacked US and Iraqi government forces; today 'al Sadr and his Mahdi Army have been marginalized to near irrelevance. That also is a good thing!

Is Iraq a garden spot today? Of course not.

Is Iraq today a Jeffersonian democracy? Don't be ridiculous.

Are we better off today than we were 5, 3, or 2 years ago? You bet we are for the reasons listed above.
WHo cares??? Is it a game or contest for our leader???
They're clearly failing at home, we have not been in a worse shape in a LOOOONG time (since the late 20's)
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      03-21-2008, 11:19 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im View Post
OK, you are correct. Polls are correct. Iím wrong. Iíll talk to you in 5 years when Baghdad Disney World opens, since weíre winning hearts and minds over there.

Your definition of victory in Iraq is a fairytale. Weíre not even close and recession is knocking on our door. We need to get out of there, except we canít.
What are you basing your assessment of the prospects for victory on? I just returned from 6 months in the country and I cannot even begin to describe for you the major transformation that has occurred there.

I was walking the streets of Fullujah without fear, Ramadi is the same. These were cities that I was unable to enter 2 years ago without full body armor and an uparmored vehicle if at all.

We are winning this war.

Why do you believe a nation cannot fight a war through a recession? We fought WWII in the midst of the Great Depression.
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      03-21-2008, 01:25 PM   #19
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In what capacity were you there? Military or contractor?

You could have walked freely in Fallujah without fear before US invasion.
Iraq was attacked because of WMD. There were NO WMD. Country destroyed so that we can claim victory?

You compare WWII and Iraq? Címon man.

We are obviously going to fight the war thru recession, but at what cost? This war reflects terrible decision making and was and continues to be a mistake.

We are going to spend another 5-10k US lives and trillions of $ so that we can ďclaimĒ victory?
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      03-21-2008, 01:50 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im View Post
Attacking a sovereign country on false premise. WMD. No connection to 9-11.

4k US lives lost. Tens of thousands of Iraqis dead.

$12b/month cost.

Billions of $ unaccounted for.

No exit strategy.

Un-supported claim that we are safer today than 5 years ago.

US divisiveness about the war.

Lack of public support for the war.

We failed mostly because people of Iraq DONíT want us there and as soon as we leave there will be more religious bloodshed and power struggle. If we stay it will cost us beyond whatís acceptable.

Remember that Sadam was NOT our problem. He was contained and benign. No WMD. Donít forget that this war was sold to us and the rest of the world on WMD and 9-11 connection.
+1

9-11 was the springboard for which an Iraq invasion was seen as acceptable. Politicians are using, and have used, major catastrophic events to initiate their own agendas, gain power, make money, and strip individual freedoms.

That fact that military families donated the most money to Ron Paul's campaign speaks volumes about what the right choice regarding in Iraq is. Start getting out now! The mindset of the people over there is completely different from our own. We need to comes to grips with that.
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      03-21-2008, 02:07 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im View Post
In what capacity were you there? Military or contractor?

You could have walked freely in Fallujah without fear before US invasion.
Iraq was attacked because of WMD. There were NO WMD. Country destroyed so that we can claim victory?

You compare WWII and Iraq? Címon man.

We are obviously going to fight the war thru recession, but at what cost? This war reflects terrible decision making and was and continues to be a mistake.

We are going to spend another 5-10k US lives and trillions of $ so that we can ďclaimĒ victory?
I was there as a contractor, I have been retired from active duty for a few years now.

We can go over the whole WMD thing again and again. The bottom line is Saddam bet his country and his regime on a bluff and lost. He was more worried about Iran than he was about complying with his ceasefire agreement with the US. He did not think we would go beyond a Desert Fox type action so he maintained the deception that he retained stockpiles of WMD to deter Iran. He was wrong. He miscalculated and he and his country paid the price. It is important to note that the Kaye Report estimated that Iraq could have a CW program up and running in 6 months and Saddam made clear he intended to restart as soon as the sanctions were lifted.

You are wrong though to suggest that WMD was the only reason for the invasion. I suggest you read the President's speech in Cincinnati and the Congressional Resolution authorizing the use of military force. They lay out the case for war clearly.

It is pointless to concentrate solely on the past though. We are there now and we cannot go back in time so the question is what do we do now and what are the consequences for our actions.

If we stay and allow the Iraqis time to develop their security forces and their government, we may well end up with a real alternative to the authoritarian regimes that currently dominate the area (except Israel and Turkey). Would such a state in the heart of the Arab world be in the best interest of the US? I believe it would be and is something worth fighting for.

What do you believe would happen if we surrendered as you suggest?
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      03-21-2008, 02:37 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Was that belief reasonable and shared by every other major intelligence agency in the world? Yes it was. As a matter of fact, Saddam admitted that he intentionally deceived the world into believing he retained a WMD stockpile and had every intention of resuming his programs once the UN sanctions were eased. Sanction, by the way, that were crumbling in large part due to the corruption in the Oil for Food Program.
I find it interesting that those with such obvious dislike for the UN continue to roll out the sanction argument as a reason for war.
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