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      04-12-2008, 06:33 AM   #67
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woo!~~ it's time to start another topic.......
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      04-12-2008, 06:39 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by bobbo View Post
Let the Chinese sort it out. They are one of the world's oldest civilizations and will remain that way for thousand more years to come. It's funny some western countries are up in arms with the current situation. Perhaps they have forgotten the British invasion in 1904, which killed thousands of tibetans.

"The British soldiers mowed down the Tibetans with machine guns as they fled. “I got so sick of the slaughter that I ceased fire, though the general’s order was to make as big a bag as possible,” wrote Lieutenant Arthur Hadow, commander of the Maxim guns detachment. “I hope I shall never again have to shoot down men walking away.” [42]" - Wikipedia

or the invasion of China by Europeans:

"Early in the 19th century, serious internal weaknesses developed in the Manchu empire that left China vulnerable to Western, Japanese, and Russian imperialism. In 1839, China found itself fighting the First Opium War with Britain. China was defeated, and in 1842, agreed to the provisions of the Treaty of Nanjing. "



I don't agree with how people are treated there, but what country is willing to go to war, how land conflicts are resolved, or the least, stop trading with China? I fail to see what violent protest in the streets or extinguish olympic flame has anything to do with improving the lives of tibetans. Simply ruin the games for other people. There is no way China will let Tibet declare independence without a fight. What kind of implications will that give to rest of the country? Who is next, Taiwan? Get real. What country is willing to sacrifice its country man for tibetan?

Want to make their lives better. Start donating to build more infrastructures, schools, roads and schools.
very well put...
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      04-12-2008, 11:33 AM   #69
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Let the Chinese sort it out....
The Tibetans shouldn't have a say?
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      04-12-2008, 02:58 PM   #70
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The Tibetans shouldn't have a say?
the Tibetans are Chinese. He didn't say let the Hans sort it out
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      04-12-2008, 03:18 PM   #71
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the Tibetans are Chinese. He didn't say let the Hans sort it out
That would be the crux of the problem wouldn't it?

The Tibetans neither consider themselves to be nor do they wish to be Chinese.
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      04-12-2008, 03:56 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
That would be the crux of the problem wouldn't it?

The Tibetans neither consider themselves to be nor do they wish to be Chinese.
Well, technically they're still Chinese.

If a caucasian wants to be black and neither consider themselves white nor do they wish to be white, that doesn't make them black. He/She is still caucasian.

Imagine everyone goes against their country and demands to be another race, what would this world become of?
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      04-12-2008, 04:08 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
That would be the crux of the problem wouldn't it?

The Tibetans neither consider themselves to be nor do they wish to be Chinese.
Thats a bit biased don't you think. so your telling me not a single Tibetan in Tibet wants to be chinese, while they are enjoying "relative freedom" compared to the british invasion of the early 1900s and free school and healthcare provided by the PRC not the mention better roads and infrastructres and growing economy and jobs and standard of living all thanks to the chinese gov.

This is how I see it. there are some tibetans that don't want to be chinese, there are some that do. Most (pro or anti chinese) are silent because they are just ordinary people with a quiet life and a political point of view. a small percentage of extremist on both sides are vocal, while a even smaller percentage actually WORK for the West or China to promote a government agenda, they are all labeled as spies and traitors by the other side.

I came to this conclusion because I go back and forth between the states and China quite often, and I can literally physically see the difference in media portral of Tibet in the 2 countries.
China's media is censored and so is US media, its just only 1 of them bother to cover it up and do it secretly.
Any poor bastards out there who thinks we have true free press, I mourn for your ignorance.
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      04-12-2008, 07:08 PM   #74
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I find it interesting that you seem to obsess over the British invasion of Tibet but seem unconcerned by the much more recent Chinese invasion of Tibet.

Whether or not the Tibetan people want to be citizens of the PRC is a decision they have never been allowed to make. It was made for them at the point of a bayonet.

It is a cold and sad way to evaluate a life when you measure the destruction of history, culture, and religion against roads and infrastructure and think the latter is superior.

I do wonder, who do you believe censors the media in the US? Is it the President? That would explain all the great press he receives.
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      04-12-2008, 11:01 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
I find it interesting that you seem to obsess over the British invasion of Tibet but seem unconcerned by the much more recent Chinese invasion of Tibet.

Whether or not the Tibetan people want to be citizens of the PRC is a decision they have never been allowed to make. It was made for them at the point of a bayonet.

It is a cold and sad way to evaluate a life when you measure the destruction of history, culture, and religion against roads and infrastructure and think the latter is superior.

I do wonder, who do you believe censors the media in the US? Is it the President? That would explain all the great press he receives.
I simply revealed a side of the history no one else has mentioned in this thread. Point being, every country has its difficulties and they are best resolved by those who are closest to the problems. United States have problems with slavery and racism and they weren't resolved through external influence. The collapse of Soviet Union originated from the people of that state, not through the military might of USA.

I did not make an evaluation of importance of life vs. infrastructure. You did. Tibetan's freedom is not a fad. It is not merely a thead from cyberspace, or an afternoon conversation of self righteous. Want to improve the life of Tibetan? Do it through action. Improve their quality of life through financial support or, if you wish, pack up and head out there, that is what I suggested. Trivial discussion on the web or with your neighbor does them no good (A tibet print on an Abercrombie shirt is an insult to the situation). There are enough press for the situation already.


Censorship? I have an example. At last Monday's congressional hearing Bernanke was grilled on the details of Bearstern fire sale. When asked about the concrete figures, Bernanke told the senator he would only present the data behind closed doors. Why? To prevent widespread public panic? Most likely. But in a completely censorship free society, shouldn't citizens have the right to full knowledge to make decision for themselves? Most of us are happy, including myself, to remain ignorant, but to believe there are nations that don't use some kind of censorship for self perseverance or security is absurd.
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      04-13-2008, 08:07 AM   #76
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Whether or not the Tibetan people want to be citizens of the PRC is a decision they have never been allowed to make. It was made for them at the point of a bayonet.
I find it interesting that the point you make here contradicts most of your other posts regarding other topics. I don't want to hijack the thread, but I had to point this out
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      04-13-2008, 08:09 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Negotiator View Post
I find it interesting that the point you make here contradicts most of your other posts regarding other topics. I don't want to hijack the thread, but I had to point this out
links please
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      04-13-2008, 09:07 AM   #78
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http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...97#post2343497

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Does the US use its power (economic, military, etc...) to further its own interests? I would sure hope so.
The general idea of having a moral high ground in conflicts is what I was referring to. I think ganeil is a patriot, and like a parent will make excuses for kid's abnoxious behavior, but will be quick to point out the flaws in other kids.
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      04-13-2008, 12:26 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by bobbo View Post
I simply revealed a side of the history no one else has mentioned in this thread. Point being, every country has its difficulties and they are best resolved by those who are closest to the problems. United States have problems with slavery and racism and they weren't resolved through external influence. The collapse of Soviet Union originated from the people of that state, not through the military might of USA.
Your analogies are fatally flawed. The American prohibitionist movement was greatly influenced by prohibition movement in Great Britain and the last stop on the underground railroad was often Canada.

As for the Soviet Union's collapse, it was influenced greatly by the actions of the West. Whether the spiritual revival the Poles experienced thanks to John Paul II, the defeat of the Red Army in Afghanistan, or the US military buildup.

The PRC wishes the world to consider Tibet an internal affair but that just won't work. If the US declared today that it was annexing Cuba, would that become a purely internal affair?

Quote:
I did not make an evaluation of importance of life vs. infrastructure. You did. Tibetan's freedom is not a fad. It is not merely a thead from cyberspace, or an afternoon conversation of self righteous. Want to improve the life of Tibetan? Do it through action. Improve their quality of life through financial support or, if you wish, pack up and head out there, that is what I suggested. Trivial discussion on the web or with your neighbor does them no good (A tibet print on an Abercrombie shirt is an insult to the situation). There are enough press for the situation already.
Tibetan freedom is not a fad, it is non-existent. To suggest that things will improve if the world ignores Tibet flies in the face of the last 50 years.

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Censorship? I have an example. At last Monday's congressional hearing Bernanke was grilled on the details of Bearstern fire sale. When asked about the concrete figures, Bernanke told the senator he would only present the data behind closed doors. Why? To prevent widespread public panic? Most likely. But in a completely censorship free society, shouldn't citizens have the right to full knowledge to make decision for themselves? Most of us are happy, including myself, to remain ignorant, but to believe there are nations that don't use some kind of censorship for self perseverance or security is absurd.
So you equate censorship with keeping the details of any governmental action from the public? Should we publish our military contingency plans as well? There is a big difference between preventing the press from reporting on what they discover and giving the press all the information it wants.
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      04-13-2008, 12:28 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Negotiator View Post
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...97#post2343497



The general idea of having a moral high ground in conflicts is what I was referring to. I think ganeil is a patriot, and like a parent will make excuses for kid's abnoxious behavior, but will be quick to point out the flaws in other kids.
I was responding to the point that some Tibetans want to be Chinese. I see no inconsistency.
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      04-13-2008, 07:27 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
I was responding to the point that some Tibetans want to be Chinese. I see no inconsistency.
Seems to me you know nothing about China, Chinese and Tibet... You only rely on the corru[ted and censored info from the Government that is flawed on both sides...

You, and your "honest" government supported the idea of "Taiwanese not wanting to be Chinese" and same crap about the freedoms, democracies and so on. A few weeks back (I believe on March 24 or so) Taiwanese voted to remain part of China. No "BIG" news were spread on our media -- the news of Chinese (mainland) victory... I guess -- another proof that our Government actually does not understand other cultures, the same as it happened with Iraq that created worse mess there than ever.

Why don't we take care of our own problems first and stop messing with the things that are not and should not be our problem at all...
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      04-13-2008, 11:45 PM   #82
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The PRC wishes the world to consider Tibet an internal affair but that just won't work. If the US declared today that it was annexing Cuba, would that become a purely internal affair?
And yet, you want Iraq to be handled by the US solely?
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      04-14-2008, 07:46 AM   #83
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And yet, you want Iraq to be handled by the US solely?
When have I ever said or implied that? The military operation in Iraq was a coalition effort. Within months of the overthrow of the Ba'athist regime, the Iraqi people were voting on their future. I do not recall objecting to any of this.
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      04-14-2008, 09:06 AM   #84
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When have I ever said or implied that? The military operation in Iraq was a coalition effort. Within months of the overthrow of the Ba'athist regime, the Iraqi people were voting on their future. I do not recall objecting to any of this.
COALITION - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

United States: 250,000 invasion—158,000 current (1/08)
United Kingdom: 45,000 invasion—4,500 current (12/07)
Poland: 194 invasion—2,500 peak—900 current (2/07)
Australia: 2,000 invasion—~900 current (11/07)
TOTAL INVASION DEPLOYMENT


~297,000 troops

CURRENT DEPLOYMENT BY COUNTRY


South Korea: 3,600 peak—933 current (12/07; deployed 5/03)
Romania: 730 peak—397 current (11/07; deployed 7/03)
El Salvador: 380 peak—280 current (12/07; deployed 8/03)
Czech Republic: 300 peak—99 current (11/07)
Azerbaijan: 250 peak—88 current (9/07)
Georgia: 2,000 troops (12/07; deployed 8/03)
Denmark: 545 peak—50 current (12/07, deployed 4/03)
Mongolia: 180 peak—100 current (2/07; deployed 8/03)
Albania: 120 peak—70 current(10/07; deployed 4/03)
Bosnia and Herzegovina: 37 troops (9/07; deployed 6/05)
Ukraine: 1,650 peak-37 current (2/08; deployed 8/03)
Estonia: 40 troops (12/07; deployed 6/05)
Macedonia: 40 troops (7/07; deployed 7/03)
Kazakhstan: 29 troops (12/07; deployed 9/03)
Moldova: 24 peak—11 current (9/07; deployed 9/03)
Bulgaria: 485 peak—155 current (2/08; deployed 5/03)
Armenia: 46 troops(07/07; deployed 1/05)
Latvia: 136 peak—3 current(10/07; deployed 4/04)


US = 158,000 troops (96%!!!!!)
NEXT closest UK = 4500 (3%)
THEN Korea = 933 (0.5%)

TOTAL Current number = 165000 troops...


DEATHS:

USA = 4040 (93%)
UK = 176 (4%)
OTHERS = 133 (3%)

Great Coalition...
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      04-14-2008, 08:12 PM   #85
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The PRC wishes the world to consider Tibet an internal affair but that just won't work. If the US declared today that it was annexing Cuba, would that become a purely internal affair?
US and Cuba analogy is completely off base. Cuba was never a state of USA and then declared independence. Tibet was part of China since dynasties and long before nations. There was a long relationship between the tibet and Yuan and Qing. The very idea of you saying Tibet is not part of China is as much ignorance as PRC saying Tibet is. Is your idea backed by a general consensus of people in Tibet, or merely those tibetan who are making the news? Why are you promoting a particular side? What is your angle. Do you even know a Tibetan?

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To you equate censorship with keeping the details of any governmental action from the public? Should we publish our military contingency plans as well? There is a big difference between preventing the press from reporting on what they discover and giving the press all the information it wants.
Here, I have an even better example of censorship:

As 60 Minutes was putting its show together, the White House put pressure on CBS -- the parent company -- to kill the show. During the 60 Minutes broadcast and ONLY during the Don Siegelman portion -- the screen went black for Huntsville residents and Mobile residents.

http://digg.com/television/60_minute...ast_in_Alabama

Quote:
Seems to me you know nothing about China, Chinese and Tibet... You only rely on the corru[ted and censored info from the Government that is flawed on both sides...

You, and your "honest" government supported the idea of "Taiwanese not wanting to be Chinese" and same crap about the freedoms, democracies and so on. A few weeks back (I believe on March 24 or so) Taiwanese voted to remain part of China. No "BIG" news were spread on our media -- the news of Chinese (mainland) victory... I guess -- another proof that our Government actually does not understand other cultures, the same as it happened with Iraq that created worse mess there than ever.
Ding ding ding ding +1.

Last edited by Robert; 04-14-2008 at 08:32 PM.
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      04-14-2008, 09:31 PM   #86
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US and Cuba analogy is completely off base. Cuba was never a state of USA and then declared independence. Tibet was part of China since dynasties and long before nations. There was a long relationship between the tibet and Yuan and Qing. The very idea of you saying Tibet is not part of China is as much ignorance as PRC saying Tibet is. Is your idea backed by a general consensus of people in Tibet, or merely those tibetan who are making the news? Why are you promoting a particular side? What is your angle. Do you even know a Tibetan?
There is a long relationship between the US and Cuba as well, relatively speaking. Cuba gained its independence as a result of the Spanish-American War.

How can saying Tibet is part of China be as ignorant as saying it is not?

I do not know what the general consensus of the Tibetan people is and neither do you. Why is that? Because the butchers in Peking will not allow that consensus to be expressed in a fair and open election.

My angle is simple, the PRC is a brutal dictatorship and those who oppose it have my support. Those who support it have nothing but my disdain.

As a matter of fact, I have met a number of Tibetans but I fail to see how that is relevant.

Quote:
Here, I have an even better example of censorship:

As 60 Minutes was putting its show together, the White House put pressure on CBS -- the parent company -- to kill the show. During the 60 Minutes broadcast and ONLY during the Don Siegelman portion -- the screen went black for Huntsville residents and Mobile residents.

http://digg.com/television/60_minute...ast_in_Alabama
Do you realize that this story has been debunked and denied by CBS?

Ask yourself this, if the White House were able to censor the news, how come they suffer from such poor press?
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Last edited by ganeil; 04-15-2008 at 09:02 AM.
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      04-15-2008, 11:30 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
I do not know what the general consensus of the Tibetan people is and neither do you. Why is that? Because the butchers in Peking will not allow that consensus to be expressed in a fair and open election.

My angle is simple, the PRC is a brutal dictatorship and those who oppose it have my support. Those who support it have nothing but my disdain.
Truth came out. So your pro independence stance came from your disdain of PRC, not because you care for Tibetans want or what is best for them. LOL I don't know what they want, that's why I said "Let them settle it." Don't need people with ulterior motive or arrogance to push their lifestyle on to others.


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Do you realize that this story has been debunked and denied by CBS?

Ask yourself this, if the White House were able to censor the news, how come they suffer from such poor press?

Of course CBS denied it. What will that do to their reputation if people discover they can be manipulated.
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      04-16-2008, 07:46 AM   #88
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Truth came out. So your pro independence stance came from your disdain of PRC, not because you care for Tibetans want or what is best for them. LOL I don't know what they want, that's why I said "Let them settle it." Don't need people with ulterior motive or arrogance to push their lifestyle on to others.
When have I ever advocated for independence? I simply want the Tibetan people to determine how they are governed. Why do you oppose that? Why should murderous thugs in Peking have a say in it?

What is your interest in this? Are you Tibetan?

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Of course CBS denied it. What will that do to their reputation if people discover they can be manipulated.
I think the people realized CBS News could be manipulated when they were shown to have presented fraudulent documents in an attempt to smear the President.
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