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      03-15-2008, 11:43 AM   #1
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help me decide M3 v GTR

I know there are threads about the GTR v M3. But I am more asking for advice as it relates to me and my situation.

I am looking at the M3 with many options say it's $71K plus tax. I can trim off maybe $3K say a low price ~$68K plus tax. Mainly it's up for me do decide if I should get the M-DCT or the 6MT

I have shopped for the GTR and a few dealers wanted $95K (ish) but I have one that's willing to go +$5K over msrp so that's around $77K (ish).

I know there are people that won't pay over msrp but leave that aside just look at the results $71K M3 (with DCT) v $77K GTR

The GTR includes everything that is optional on the M3 such as navi, active shocks, premium sound, bluetooth, DCT etc..

So I look at the price difference just ~ $7K or $8K more for a GTR.

For which the GTR has more power/speed, AWD, more rare, maybe more street cred (?).

what am I looking for?

I like speed/power and I like to have a car that's somewhat looked at as status but not too much (I mean not like an Aston) although that's not to say I don't like Aston/Ferrari etc.. but I don't want the image of being rich-ie rich so a middle car around $75K +/- is what I am looking for.

I don't race on the street or on the track. I like quick and feeling of power but it's for my own enjoyment. In other words if I get a GTR I'm not going to looking for Z06s or Ford GTs to test it against. If I do go fast it's just for what I am feeling of accleleration and maybe a M3 feels quick (in isolation) I mean it's not like I'll feel bad knowing I don't have a car that can run door to door with a Z06.

I mean when I'm driving, if I want to dust off a car, I like some power just to go. But I don't mean I'm looking for the fastest car in the world. Specifically I have lived with a S2000 for almost 6 years. I would like some more pep than it has but I didn't upgrade to a Z06 for example b/c that aspect is not my main concern.

While I like the awd of the GTR, I think that' my biggest area of what I may like it's not like I am only looking for an awd car. I have other cars to drive in the snow so the awd would mainly be a tool to make the GTR more east to drive (more secure), but I don't think awd is magic like I know if you go past the limits with either car you can go off road.

I don't really push 9/10th any way. I mean even with my S2000, I don't drive as fast as the car is able. So it's just I like brisk back-roads and some quick accelerations but not racing.

Why you may ask don't I save so much and just get a 335i or such? Well I am a car nut. I always want the higher cars but have not got one yet. I am always too cheap. This time I want to go long and I don't plan to buy a lot of fancy cars in my life. I mean perhapse the M3 or GTR would be my best car ever. So I don't want to cheap out time after time.

So my question is the GTR sooo much better than the M3? Or is it a matter of preference? I mean if not actually racing will the M3 be as fun? Will the M3 be more luxurious or better built?

Do people think only one way or can you see being torn trying to decide if the price difference is less than $10K.

thanks.
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      03-15-2008, 12:24 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rai View Post
I know there are threads about the GTR v M3. But I am more asking for advice as it relates to me and my situation.

I am looking at the M3 with many options say it's $71K plus tax. I can trim off maybe $3K say a low price ~$68K plus tax. Mainly it's up for me do decide if I should get the M-DCT or the 6MT

I have shopped for the GTR and a few dealers wanted $95K (ish) but I have one that's willing to go +$5K over msrp so that's around $77K (ish).

I know there are people that won't pay over msrp but leave that aside just look at the results $71K M3 (with DCT) v $77K GTR

The GTR includes everything that is optional on the M3 such as navi, active shocks, premium sound, bluetooth, DCT etc..

So I look at the price difference just ~ $7K or $8K more for a GTR.

For which the GTR has more power/speed, AWD, more rare, maybe more street cred (?).

what am I looking for?

I like speed/power and I like to have a car that's somewhat looked at as status but not too much (I mean not like an Aston) although that's not to say I don't like Aston/Ferrari etc.. but I don't want the image of being rich-ie rich so a middle car around $75K +/- is what I am looking for.

I don't race on the street or on the track. I like quick and feeling of power but it's for my own enjoyment. In other words if I get a GTR I'm not going to looking for Z06s or Ford GTs to test it against. If I do go fast it's just for what I am feeling of accleleration and maybe a M3 feels quick (in isolation) I mean it's not like I'll feel bad knowing I don't have a car that can run door to door with a Z06.

I mean when I'm driving, if I want to dust off a car, I like some power just to go. But I don't mean I'm looking for the fastest car in the world. Specifically I have lived with a S2000 for almost 6 years. I would like some more pep than it has but I didn't upgrade to a Z06 for example b/c that aspect is not my main concern.

While I like the awd of the GTR, I think that' my biggest area of what I may like it's not like I am only looking for an awd car. I have other cars to drive in the snow so the awd would mainly be a tool to make the GTR more east to drive (more secure), but I don't think awd is magic like I know if you go past the limits with either car you can go off road.

I don't really push 9/10th any way. I mean even with my S2000, I don't drive as fast as the car is able. So it's just I like brisk back-roads and some quick accelerations but not racing.

Why you may ask don't I save so much and just get a 335i or such? Well I am a car nut. I always want the higher cars but have not got one yet. I am always too cheap. This time I want to go long and I don't plan to buy a lot of fancy cars in my life. I mean perhapse the M3 or GTR would be my best car ever. So I don't want to cheap out time after time.

So my question is the GTR sooo much better than the M3? Or is it a matter of preference? I mean if not actually racing will the M3 be as fun? Will the M3 be more luxurious or better built?

Do people think only one way or can you see being torn trying to decide if the price difference is less than $10K.

thanks.
What a dilemma!!!....two fantastic cars!
However im not sure what your priorities are.....The two cars you are contemplating are performance vehicles that truly cater to the driving enthusiasts.....sure you can use these cars as everyday drivers...trips to the mall or a leisure Sunday drive....but the true characteristics of the car comes out when pushed to the limits. the cars are riddled with technology to enhance the driving experience when pushed.
In your own words, you "dont push 9/10th anyway"
"....street cred"
....."..I like to have a car that's somewhat looked at as status"

so taking those statements into consideration...i believe what truly is important to you is image and how you look in a car....
Why not look at Mercedes Benz....perhaps a Porsche Caymen S....im not being critical or insulting...i just tried to decipher what you truly are looking for based on what you stated above.....
cheers, Shiggy
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      03-15-2008, 01:02 PM   #3
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thanks.

what I mean by street cred is something like this, you're driving and people give you a thumbs-up or you park in a car-night gathering and people come by and say nice car..

For example you drive a 911 GT3 or Ferrari 550 or NSX (etc..) don't necessarly mean they are the baddest fastest cars in the world but people say that's a nice car (more-so) than if you had a 335i or 350Z or 135i (for example). Not to say those other cars are bad, but they are just not a GTR or M3

What I mean is, I don't drive 9/10th. lets hope nobody does drive 9/10th on the street. My gosh, you can push a car or drive hard without getting up the the limit where you are getting reckless. I mean it's almost impossible to drive a car like a GTR where you are close to it's upper limit of performance that'd be like driving 170 mph or taking a corner flat out braking with full g-force etc..

I understand you can drive near the limit in places (ie. race tracks) but on real world (IMO) most people are driving just for a bit of fun and clearly a car like a GTR or M3 is more rewarding than a Camry (as an example).

I like spirit and soul and character in a car, I don't just want a status symbol even tho it sounds like you are saying I want to be a show-off. it's not like that. I like cars and would like more hard edge car like the GT3 but am leaning towards a car that is sporty but also has comfort (some) and utility (rear seats).

I say something like I want status, just b/c I am always going the low way. I mean usually I'd say well a 135i is half the cost of a M3 so why not save a few bucks. But this one time I want to get something nicer so that at least I'll be able to say I didn't buy it to save a few bucks. I mean status more like somebody who likes a fancy watch may buy one real nice watch even tho it's not needed more than say a $500 watch and not even to show off but just so he feels good about having something that not everyone else has. By all means I can afford more than the M3 by far so I'm not trying to pretend I'm richer than I am or to show off. I mean more just having something a cut above a car like a 350Z, 335i or G37 etc.
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      03-15-2008, 02:42 PM   #4
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Since you do not want absolute performance, which can be be proven/debated by numbers, you are in a better position to answer your own questions than anyone else here. To the best of my knowledge, nobody on the forum has experienced both the M3 and the GTR.
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      03-15-2008, 02:52 PM   #5
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Hmm, considering this is an M3 forum.....

I'm gonna take a wild guess and say the M3 gets more votes.
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      03-15-2008, 04:13 PM   #6
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We all pretty much know about the performance capabilities of both cars. And obviously they are completely different in their execution and mission as high performance cars. So i think the final decision would be IMO, base on three factors. The first would be the test drive, and if possible drive them hard. Basically which one will be more sufficient for your needs and your lifestyle. The second one would be asthetics. Obviously this is very subjective, as the old saying goes, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". The third and last one would be value. If your paying $70k for a fully loaded M3 or $70k base GTR, the decision would be tougher for me. But if the GTR's price is bloated by dealers of up to $90k, IMO it would not be worth it. If i really prefer the GTR, i'd rather wait when the demanding price becomes normal and the hype is gone. But $80k for the GTR is probably reasonable. Good luck on your decision, i could only wish i had your dilema.
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      03-15-2008, 04:34 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbb357 View Post
We all pretty much know about the performance capabilities of both cars. And obviously they are completely different in their execution and mission as high performance cars. So i think the final decision would be IMO, base on three factors. The first would be the test drive, and if possible drive them hard. Basically which one will be more sufficient for your needs and your lifestyle. The second one would be asthetics. Obviously this is very subjective, as the old saying goes, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". The third and last one would be value. If your paying $70k for a fully loaded M3 or $70k base GTR, the decision would be tougher for me. But if the GTR's price is bloated by dealers of up to $90k, IMO it would not be worth it. If i really prefer the GTR, i'd rather wait when the demanding price becomes normal and the hype is gone. But $80k for the GTR is probably reasonable. Good luck on your decision, i could only wish i had your dilema.
...."IMO it would not be worth it."....how do you know its not worth it without seeing the car or driving it?....the GTR out performed the Porsche turbo and is substantially cheaper....not judging or flaming you...its just a strong statement without merit....
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      03-15-2008, 04:41 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
...."IMO it would not be worth it."....how do you know its not worth it without seeing the car or driving it?....the GTR out performed the Porsche turbo and is substantially cheaper....not judging or flaming you...its just a strong statement without merit....
You are correct. It is quite a strong statement but not neccessarily without merit. Just remember it's only an opinion, and my opinion is base on the fact that i would prefer many other cars for $90k before i would consider the GTR. Even though most of the cars at $90k that i would prefer would not touch the GTR on the performance level, i would still prefer them on other terms such as looks and prestige. Again, just my humble opinion. Don't mean to rub anyone the wrong way.
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      03-15-2008, 04:42 PM   #9
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      03-15-2008, 05:18 PM   #10
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This one is WAY too easy. I was on a waitlist for a M3, but the GT-R is the new KING. Read any car magazine, they call it the king, corvette crusher, instant legend. It is the car of the decade. The M3 isn't even close performance wise, and the M is supposed to stand for Motorsport. I say the M now stands for marketing since they are now trying to sell 100k of these things a year. And 70k for a M3? Only enthusiasts know the difference between a 3 and a M3. You get a sick awesome looking machine in the GTR that is unique, and has performance that bests a Veyron on any track. The GTR, easily.
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      03-15-2008, 05:53 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
...."IMO it would not be worth it."....how do you know its not worth it without seeing the car or driving it?....the GTR out performed the Porsche turbo and is substantially cheaper....not judging or flaming you...its just a strong statement without merit....
Let me explain again so you don't get the idea that i'm in anyway dissing the GTR. If you can get the GTR for $80k or less, definitely go with the GTR. But $90k or more, personally IMO, i would not pay that much for the GTR. That's just me, my opinion is i'll have other options for $90k or more. The GTR right now is "The King of the Hill" as far as i'm concern and is probably the new "Supercar Killer" and the best "bang for the back". But the real competiton for the GTR i think in terms of price, performance, and value for the GTR is the Z06. Which is the current or former, depends who you ask, holder of all three titles i mentioned.
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      03-15-2008, 06:03 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbb357 View Post
You are correct. It is quite a strong statement but not neccessarily without merit. Just remember it's only an opinion, and my opinion is base on the fact that i would prefer many other cars for $90k before i would consider the GTR. Even though most of the cars at $90k that i would prefer would not touch the GTR on the performance level, i would still prefer them on other terms such as looks and prestige. Again, just my humble opinion. Don't mean to rub anyone the wrong way.
cool ......by the way...what cars would you consider at $90k?
I personally cant think of any....i can think of a few between 100-150!
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      03-15-2008, 06:06 PM   #13
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For that price and based on what you wrote, I would recommend that you go with the GTR. Sounds like you want an extremely exclusive car but at a price you can afford. The E92/E90 M3 is FANTASTIC and I have one but I believe(IMHO) you will see a lot of them in 2 years. The GTR is going to have a limited production and because most people wont get MSRP on a GTR for a long time, you would draw a lot of attention when you are on the road(Get white) I'm not debating which is better. So no flames please.They are both great cars both in different categories. I got the BMW because I jus aint paying 70-95K for a nissan no matter how quick it is. BMW is quality, great service and has a history of standing behind their products. Best way for me to justify the debit from my bank account. You cant go wrong either way but I think deep down, you want that GTR.
Good Luck!
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      03-15-2008, 06:22 PM   #14
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GTR.
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      03-15-2008, 06:43 PM   #15
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Its an easy choice. Its like choosing between a Rolex and Casio at the same price - yes they are both fine time pieces but one is the real deal and the other a cheap copy. A Nissan is just a Nissan even with a stolen name like the GTR.
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      03-15-2008, 07:50 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW335icDDS View Post
This one is WAY too easy. I was on a waitlist for a M3, but the GT-R is the new KING. Read any car magazine, they call it the king, corvette crusher, instant legend. It is the car of the decade. The M3 isn't even close performance wise, and the M is supposed to stand for Motorsport. I say the M now stands for marketing since they are now trying to sell 100k of these things a year. And 70k for a M3? Only enthusiasts know the difference between a 3 and a M3. You get a sick awesome looking machine in the GTR that is unique, and has performance that bests a Veyron on any track. The GTR, easily.
Wow pretty bad from a BMW owner. Going OT here but I can't let such errors pass.

The M3 never has been an elite sports car. Sure it has a great racing and wining heritage in motosports but it has flat our NEVER been the top dog in pure performance. If you think a car that is about 4 seconds to 60 and can get to 100 in less than 10 and can boogie around the Nordeshleife in about 8 minutes flat is not a "motorsports" oriented/inspired/designed car I'd really like to know which top level Italian exotics you have been owning and driving . The M3 as always been about being a really practical, fun to drive sports coupe, and as you well know it has absolutely owned its class since inception, including the E9X M3! You are clearly wrong about who recognizes an M3 and who doesn't. It is an icon and recognized by BMW enthusiasts, car enthusiasts and even non car folks world wide. What is wrong with BMW trying to sell 100k M3s? It is not that many more than they sold E46 M3s, a healthy increase but not like double or anything. Lastly, as you know the M3 is not really $70k, sure you can spend more than that on one, but equally in a state without sales tax you can walk out the door with one for less than $60k. Typically when discussing prices you should qualify it as "nicely equipped, out the door" or just use the base price.
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      03-15-2008, 08:20 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Wow pretty bad from a BMW owner. Going OT here but I can't let such errors pass.

The M3 never has been an elite sports car. Sure it has a great racing and wining heritage in motosports but it has flat our NEVER been the top dog in pure performance. If you think a car that is about 4 seconds to 60 and can get to 100 in less than 10 and can boogie around the Nordeshleife in about 8 minutes flat is not a "motorsports" oriented/inspired/designed car I'd really like to know which top level Italian exotics you have been owning and driving . The M3 as always been about being a really practical, fun to drive sports coupe, and as you well know it has absolutely owned its class since inception, including the E9X M3! You are clearly wrong about who recognizes an M3 and who doesn't. It is an icon and recognized by BMW enthusiasts, car enthusiasts and even non car folks world wide. What is wrong with BMW trying to sell 100k M3s? It is not that many more than they sold E46 M3s, a healthy increase but not like double or anything. Lastly, as you know the M3 is not really $70k, sure you can spend more than that on one, but equally in a state without sales tax you can walk out the door with one for less than $60k. Typically when discussing prices you should qualify it as "nicely equipped, out the door" or just use the base price.
The M3 was only great when it didn't have to deal with the Skyline. Now it has to, and it absolutely getting crushed by the GT-R in any race. What is the M3 for then? Its now a GT car since it is getting its ass handed to it on the track? The GT-R is also way faster than just about any Italian sports car except for the super exotics. I am not wrong about the M3, compared to the GT-R it is a poseur vehicle. The old E46 M3, which is my favorite, was a car that had no competitors at its price. Now, the RS4 gives the M3 a huge run for its money and so does the C63. Everyone has upped their game because of the E46, to the point where even if the M3 is better, its lead is extremely small. Then comparing it to the GT-R, and it is just laughable. My opinion, and you can feel free to disagree. I just think the M3 has vastly overpriced itself and with competition from within, (the 335 with a chip is just as fast and good on the street) the M3 to me isn't that great. I have a E46 330i and never thought it would come close to a M3 unless I spent a whole ton of money. I don't remember when the E46 M3 ever had problems selling when it came out, yet right now the E92 M3 can be found at any BMW dealership.

Also, think about it this way. The performance that you can NOW have with the GT-R will take the M3 at least 2-3 MORE generations to meet. To me, that is absolutely shocking, telling you just how far ahead the GT-R is. 2-3 generations is around 14-21 years in BMW terms, so you can either wait that long for the M3 to do what the GT-R is doing now, or just get the better car. I feel like the M3 is poseur because even though it has track capabilities, how many M3 owners will actually take their car to the track? The truth is, VERY few. But the percentage of GT-R owners who do track their cars will be much much higher.
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      03-15-2008, 08:50 PM   #18
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Quote:
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Lastly, as you know the M3 is not really $70k, sure you can spend more than that on one, but equally in a state without sales tax you can walk out the door with one for less than $60k. Typically when discussing prices you should qualify it as "nicely equipped, out the door" or just use the base price.
first sales tax has nothing to do with a price. If I'm paying tax on a M3 or a GTR it cancels out except for a few hundred. as I said my price is BMW price with the options I listed, coupe, technology, sound, DCT. that's $10K in options and everything is included in the price of a GTR $70K plus bluetooth. So the real difference is the mark-up.

As I said in my first post one dealer told me they are doing +$5K on the GTR so that's $72K + $5K (or just straight $70K for the M3).

I do not say I'd get a no-option M3 since BMW makes many features null until you get the technology package. Also if I get the DCT.

Now i I was set on a 6MT that would be easy since the M3 is cheaper without and you can't get a MT with the GTR. Only when you add $11K of options to a M3 does it come with the equipment that is standard on the GTR.
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      03-15-2008, 08:56 PM   #19
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One point, the M3 is still in the running mainly since I love higher RPM engines (for some reason) and big reason is the M3 has REAL back seats. See as much as it's a performance car it's still very useful in a way a Z06 or even 911 turbo or GTR is not if I want to use the back seats.

Friend of mine has a 911 turbo and once his kids got to be teen-age he could no longer use it to take them to school (then he goes on to work) so he drives his TL most days. I don't drive my kids to school but it would be fine if once and a while I could put 2 kids in the back. I am not sure the GTR would have any real room behind the driver. The G37 coupe has 4" less legroom than the M3 coupe and 3 inches less headroom which I think the GTR will also.

The rear seats are nice for a family guy to have.
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      03-15-2008, 09:35 PM   #20
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Steve Forte Rio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rai View Post
.I am not sure the GTR would have any real room behind the driver. The G37 coupe has 4" less legroom than the M3 coupe and 3 inches less headroom which I think the GTR will also.

The rear seats are nice for a family guy to have.
Huh, what?

I'm 6'1'' and fit comfortable in the back of a G37.

The rear room is of no concern whatsoever. There's plenty.
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      03-16-2008, 12:07 AM   #21
errant
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Drives: 1 turbo per door.E93 335i,GT-R
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Whenever i'm faced with this kind of dilemma of choosing between 2 great cars, one way that helps is picturing myself in either one, and having the other one that i didn't buy drive past me/pull up next to me at the lights, etc.
I then ask myself several questions- how would I feel, measure my tinge of regret for not buying the other car on a 1-10 scale, ask myself if i would race it etc.
Then i reverse the cars and picture myself in the other one.
After being on the waiting list for an M3 for almost a year, that's what made me choose the GT-R instead- i figured i'd want one really badly each time i saw such a unique car on the streets, instead of (IMO) a 3 series on steroids.
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      03-16-2008, 03:37 AM   #22
swamp2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW335icDDS View Post
The M3 was only great when it didn't have to deal with the Skyline. Now it has to, and it absolutely getting crushed by the GT-R in any race. What is the M3 for then? Its now a GT car since it is getting its ass handed to it on the track? The GT-R is also way faster than just about any Italian sports car except for the super exotics. I am not wrong about the M3, compared to the GT-R it is a poseur vehicle. The old E46 M3, which is my favorite, was a car that had no competitors at its price. Now, the RS4 gives the M3 a huge run for its money and so does the C63. Everyone has upped their game because of the E46, to the point where even if the M3 is better, its lead is extremely small. Then comparing it to the GT-R, and it is just laughable. My opinion, and you can feel free to disagree. I just think the M3 has vastly overpriced itself and with competition from within, (the 335 with a chip is just as fast and good on the street) the M3 to me isn't that great. I have a E46 330i and never thought it would come close to a M3 unless I spent a whole ton of money. I don't remember when the E46 M3 ever had problems selling when it came out, yet right now the E92 M3 can be found at any BMW dealership.

Also, think about it this way. The performance that you can NOW have with the GT-R will take the M3 at least 2-3 MORE generations to meet. To me, that is absolutely shocking, telling you just how far ahead the GT-R is. 2-3 generations is around 14-21 years in BMW terms, so you can either wait that long for the M3 to do what the GT-R is doing now, or just get the better car. I feel like the M3 is poseur because even though it has track capabilities, how many M3 owners will actually take their car to the track? The truth is, VERY few. But the percentage of GT-R owners who do track their cars will be much much higher.
You are still comparing two cars that really do not compete. Sure they are close in price but since when has a Corvette, that will outperform an M3, and has always been priced less, be considered a real competitor to the M3? The same argument is true about the GT-R. The GT-Rs main competitors are the Z06 and 997TT.

Calling the M3 a poseur vehicle is simply outright drivel. Since when does the existence of a faster vehicle at a slightly higher price make any one vehicle a poseur vehicle? What nonsene. Again did past Vettes make the E46 M3 a poseur vehicle? This argument can be made nearly ad infinitum by having a superchanged mustang or camaro well track prepped and such cars can as well embarass many cars costing 2-3 times as much.

I agree with you that Lexus, Audi and MB have upped their games but BMW has not been sleeping. Except for few early "headline" oriented tests the M3 consistently bests all of the competitors from all of these brands. In other tests the M3 bested even the GT3 and R8 and even the holy GT-R in terms of either all around sports car or simply having a much better fun factor.

Your arguments about the chipped 335i are quite stale and ineffective as well. If all you want is a drag car why waste your money on a 335i+chip, see comments above about a supercharged camaro or mustang. The M3 is an absolute all arounder built to be an achiever in all use scenarios while excelling in the twisties, both for track times and fun factor. All the while delivering a superior build quality, european style and great longevity.

On your point about M3s being found at every dealership you are right. BMW requires dealerships to maintain a demo car. And if you did not notice, just as was the case with your beloved E46 M3, E9X M3s are flying off the lots in car crazy areas like CA, NY, FL, etc for well over sticker. Why, becuase the M brand is simply worth it to many folks.

Finally I think the percentages of folks who will track their GT-Rs is very close to the percent that will track their M3s. In general these cars both are (will be) bought for street cred, status, prestige, etc. Sure many of the buyers appreciate and will use some of their speed but most will never touch the ultimate potential of either car, track or street.

Look there is no denying that the GT-R is an incredible car. It is an absolute price to performance champion, hands down. Just because it is faster than the M3 it does not "ruin" the M3. Well if it does for you personally I guess you can feel that way but it is not universal nor fact.

Keep the misinformation and poor arguments coming... You are going to find a much more receptive audience on Nissan forums.
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