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      03-15-2008, 02:54 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW335icDDS View Post
The Dinan Chip, like the one the original poster has and the one I am getting makes the 335 engine put out close to the claimed 414 HP of the M3 and way more torque WITHOUT voiding the warranty.
Without voiding whose warranty? BMW's or Dinan's? Correct me if I am wrong, but I am under the impression that the warranty is extended by Dinan in that case, not by BMW, which means you need to take it to a Dinan aproved shop and run into who knows what kind of haggling and dealing. Again, correct me if I'm misinformed on this.
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      03-15-2008, 03:29 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Without voiding whose warranty? BMW's or Dinan's? Correct me if I am wrong, but I am under the impression that the warranty is extended by Dinan in that case, not by BMW, which means you need to take it to a Dinan aproved shop and run into who knows what kind of haggling and dealing. Again, correct me if I'm misinformed on this.
This is correct, but many of the places who are dinan approved shops are dealerships. Also, regarding the 335 vs M3 debate, I had my name on a waitlist for the M3. There are many people who have cross shopped the two. If BMW wasn't worried themselves, why would they underrate the 335's engine? Everyone knows it is producing closer to 340-350 hp and more than 300 torque. The reason why they underrated it was to make space between it and the M3, to give the M3 buyer something to look at so they can say oh, well my car has over 100 more HP! This just isn't true, its just marketing, as the best 3 series before the M3 has never been closer to the M3 in performance. I ended my waitlist on the M3 because my hunch that the 335 with mods would soon perform like a M3 on a street was true with simple mods. Also, the GT-R came, and with my surprise the price tag was the same as a loaded M3, and if I wanted real Veyron like performance I wanted that. Thats why I am on a waitlist for a GT-R now.
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      03-15-2008, 03:32 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by BMW335icDDS View Post
This is correct, but many of the places who are dinan approved shops are dealerships.
Are there limitations on coverage such as how much the shop can charge for labor and what types of problems can be taken care of etc? How about you pay first and send us a claim? I've heard that those kind of issues can be rather problematic.

What I like about BMW coverage is that it is almost no questions asked unless you've done something obviously stupid to the car. I don't like to have a gray zone in this type of interaction.
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      03-15-2008, 03:34 PM   #26
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Hmm, You could definitely get the 335 to handle as well as and better than the M3 does. It just means you have to modify the car a bit. Stock for stock, M3 wins. Its not fair to compare a modded car to a stock car. However, if we're talking real world here, you are easily able to modify a 335 past every performance point of the M3. All it takes is money. $25k in money? Probably less.

What people fail to realize is that there is an intangible at work here. The M badge. For anyone who is a BMW fan or an M fan, the badge is, at times, worth as much as any other selling point of the car.

It's not because people like to brag, its because people value the heritage, the performance and the immediate status assignation you receive when you buy an M car. It's hard to describe and often gets confused with elitism and being pompous a-holes, which gives some M3 drivers (specially because they are at the top of their performance class, unlike the M5 and M6, so they care a bit less) their bad rep. Granted some let it go to their heads and do become a-holes.

It's funny now that M3 prices are through the roof and it's actually hard for most to become M3 owners. Let's face it, the M3 has a younger target market and a $70,000 price tag..two things that don't usually work well together. However, that badge sells cars. (not putting down the M3, I love it and the performance, before I get flamed.) Now though, it's becoming even sexier to own an M3 because it's just out of reach for the many that wish they could have one. This whole price thing is only adding fuel to the "M elitism" thing. This right here is why certain dealers can afford to add insane markups and premiums, because it only makes them more desirable (if thats possible).

The M3 vs 335i dilemma will never come to an end. There is a value that no amount of HP or torque or chips or suspensions on the 335 will ever be able to make up for. It is that simple. Find me one real M3 enthusiast with the means to buy one that that has chosen the 335 instead (notice I said chosen, not downgraded, I think they are both amazing cars).

Some of you will agree with me, some of you will not. I'm not saying either car is better, just explaining why it is that M3's are simply more special.

I'd love to hear what people have to say about this.
Well said. My wife has a 335 vert - it's a great car. No doubt one could mod it easily to exceed the HP/tq of the stock M3. And a 335 couple would do even better. However, that's only part of the equation. I just test drove the M3 and it's a different car than the 35 because of the sum of engine, suspension etc. The M3 is a different car.

There used to be a Porsche advertisement that showed a larger engine on one page with the heading about how their competitors increase performance. On the other page, there were pictures of tires, wheels, suspension, transmission, interior and exterior bits from a Porsche - the heading was this is how Porsche increases performance. The point being that more horsepower does not simply make a better car.

In the end, whether it's worth 20K (I built a 335 coupe and an M3 couple with the options I have ordered and got this number) is a personal one. I have decided it is worth it. Others will decide differently. I do know that I will be happy with my M3.
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      03-16-2008, 07:22 AM   #27
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A nicely equipped 335 is close to $50000 before mods. Now add Dinan flash = $2000, exhaust $1500, coilovers and sway bars $2500, LSD $3000, 19" forged wheels and tires $3000-$5000. So we are really talking about a $70,00 vrs $60,000 comparison before cosmetic mods like M-tech steering wheel, M-tech package etc. etc. And in the end you don't have that incredible engine. I love my modded 335 but I really like the new M3 as well.
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      03-16-2008, 07:19 PM   #28
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Thumbs down Balanced?

The M3 was originally a performance oriented version of a 3-series car. That is the M3 heritage that those who speak of heritage refer to. The M car pulled out a few stops in order to get the performance but it was still a 3 series car and that had implications at one point about cost and practicality. The M3 was the best of the "best in class" 3-series. The M5 was not an M3 and it wasn't just about the interior and size. It was about balance and not just driving balance but all the other factors that cause people to buy an entry level sedan and NOT a full bore sports car (with two seats, 10 mpg, limitless noise and limitless price).

Because of competition, the 2008 M3 really pushes the limit of what a 3 series car is. Give me the 335i with the same performance suspension as the M3 and the same chip specs that Dinan will warranty and price it at the same 19% over the 335 (as the '97 M3 sedan was over '97 328, which would be a price of 46,300) and I'd be quite pleased and happy with the new M3 (and put a 330HP NA engine in the 335). The trouble is that BMW has allowed Audi, MB and Lexus to change the definitions of what the M badge means to the 3-series and the M3 car is NOT what it once was in relation to the rest of the series. At some point it's not a 3-series BMW and when it reaches that point then what is it and what happened to the real M3?

Model Base Price MPG Power
97 Sedan
318 26,520 23/31 138
328 33,470 (26% more than the 318) 20/29 190 (38% more power)
M3 39,950 (19% more than the 328) 20/28 240 (26% more power)

02 Coupe
325 29,100 19-20/26-29 184
330 34,990 (20% more than the 325) 17-21/25-30 225 (22% more power)
M3 45,900 (31% more than the 330) 16/23-24 333 (48% more power)

08 Sedan
328 32,400 17-19/25-28 230
335 38,900 (20% more than the 328) 16-17/25-26 300 (30% more power)
M3 53,800 (38% more than the 335) 14/20 414 (38% more power)

You can see that in 1997 the M3 was priced 19% above the "top" level 3-series car (the 328) and output 26% more power with about the same MPG (ie. practical cost to drive).

Fast forward and you see that the 2008 M3 is priced 38% above the "top" level 3-series car (the 335) and outputs "38%" more power with much worse MPG (6K-10K/decade more expensive to drive). That assumes the 335 output is 300HP, if you figure the 335 output is 330HP then the M3 only outputs 25% more power for the same 38% increase in cost and the 335 outputs 43% more power than the 328 for a mere 30% increase in cost (about what an M car should do) and at roughly the same cost to drive.

I feel confident that the handling changes between the 97 M3 and 97 328 are the same as between the 08 M3 and 335. BMW is asking more and more for less and less differential between the cars. In addition they are asking that premium for a car that has significantly less daily driver practicality as the rest of the 3-series cars. Anyone arguing that price and practicality don't mater to "M" drivers is clueless to at least *some* of the heritage because you could always get a better performance car than an M3, just not necessarily one that seats four, has the same purchase price and has the same cost to operate. None of this considers the fact that the 335 basically has an engine in it that can be placed to within the same performance spec as the M3 with the same reliability (as least the same reliability as determined by what is guaranteed) and with a very minimal "install" risk. I think these factors play a role in why *some* people compare the 335 to the M3 (or think it should be the M3) and why some people that could buy either still choose the 335. Some people really do want a 3-series car and I'm not sure the 08 M3 is that. I think that those who will pay a 38% premium for the "M" and justify it based on the "heritage" don't really understand the entirety of that heritage. If they did, then why from the perspective of the M3 heritage are they willing to pay so much for so little improvement and with so much sacrifice in practicality too?

Just my thoughts on the subject as someone considering both and who could pay cash for either. I think the M3 is a great car. I think it's by far best in class. I'm not sure it's a 3-series BMW and I don't think that the other cars in the M3's class bear any relation to the 3-series competition (didn't the four in A4 used to mean 4 cylinders not twice that many). Can BMW put an M3 badge on anything and will people still consider it 3-series? Will the M3 go the way of NASCAR "stock" cars? I hope not, I want an M3.
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      03-16-2008, 07:24 PM   #29
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      03-16-2008, 07:34 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgdog View Post
A nicely equipped 335 is close to $50000 before mods. Now add Dinan flash = $2000, exhaust $1500, coilovers and sway bars $2500, LSD $3000, 19" forged wheels and tires $3000-$5000. So we are really talking about a $70,00 vrs $60,000 comparison before cosmetic mods like M-tech steering wheel, M-tech package etc. etc. And in the end you don't have that incredible engine. I love my modded 335 but I really like the new M3 as well.
I think this is what I think about the most when comparing the 335 to the M3. If you buy a 335i, you might try and spend that type of money to make it closer or better than an M3, whereas the M3 might seem just fine stock. I looked at an AW M3 inside the showroom at the dealer yesterday and you just get a sense that there is something more there than the 335's sitting outside in the rain. Dealer wouldn't let me sit in it though
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      03-16-2008, 07:52 PM   #31
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Well for me, I am just looking to chip the 335 which would only be like 2k. That alone makes it close to being as fast ina straight line to a M3. I have the GT-R on order rather than the M3 for pure speed.
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      03-16-2008, 11:12 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cryptkeeper View Post
I think this is what I think about the most when comparing the 335 to the M3. If you buy a 335i, you might try and spend that type of money to make it closer or better than an M3, whereas the M3 might seem just fine stock. I looked at an AW M3 inside the showroom at the dealer yesterday and you just get a sense that there is something more there than the 335's sitting outside in the rain. Dealer wouldn't let me sit in it though
The M3 is a very fine vehicle, no doubt. Well engineered and outfitted, very fast and a very good handler.

But today I got to go over a new one at our local dealer, and found that, from a looks standpoint, I like the 335 (and 328) better. Much better. The M3 has that hood bulge, various air ducts, and body cladding, all of which tend to screw up the very clean lines on the base coupes.

I feel the same way about 911s. One of my sons has a 911S in Arctic Silver, and frankly, next to a C4S or Turbo, it's classically beautiful. Those other models are scooped and spoilered to a fare thee well, and for me, that doesn't do it.

Yeah, I know. A lot of folks want their speed to show, so that's how manufacturers build 'em. It's a pity, though. Some of us don't want their speed to show.

Sigh. Maybe I should go find my old '98 Neon (if it hasn't rusted into a shapeless pile by now). There was a car where the speed didn't show.

Sure, it was a POS, but on track, DAMN, that car was quick.

Bruce
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      03-17-2008, 03:21 PM   #33
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I cant wait to have a few runs with one...........

I just will feel bad when I neck the M3 out,,,,,,,,,Im just no that type of asshole to gloryify it.

All in all BMW did a very nice price point between the 2 cars.

Money is money and some have more, some have less.
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      03-17-2008, 04:02 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
The M3 is a very fine vehicle, no doubt. Well engineered and outfitted, very fast and a very good handler.

But today I got to go over a new one at our local dealer, and found that, from a looks standpoint, I like the 335 (and 328) better. Much better. The M3 has that hood bulge, various air ducts, and body cladding, all of which tend to screw up the very clean lines on the base coupes.

Bruce
The dealer was actually telling me that he felt the 335 was a better buy. I thought there job was to try and get you into the most expensive vehicle possible . He said he planned on getting the 335 next as it was a perfect DD, whereas the M3 may not be. I'll save my judgement for once I actually drive both. Either one's sure to be a blast compared to my boat though.
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      03-17-2008, 04:52 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
The M3 is a very fine vehicle, no doubt. Well engineered and outfitted, very fast and a very good handler.

But today I got to go over a new one at our local dealer, and found that, from a looks standpoint, I like the 335 (and 328) better. Much better. The M3 has that hood bulge, various air ducts, and body cladding, all of which tend to screw up the very clean lines on the base coupes.

I feel the same way about 911s. One of my sons has a 911S in Arctic Silver, and frankly, next to a C4S or Turbo, it's classically beautiful. Those other models are scooped and spoilered to a fare thee well, and for me, that doesn't do it.

Yeah, I know. A lot of folks want their speed to show, so that's how manufacturers build 'em. It's a pity, though. Some of us don't want their speed to show.

Sigh. Maybe I should go find my old '98 Neon (if it hasn't rusted into a shapeless pile by now). There was a car where the speed didn't show.

Sure, it was a POS, but on track, DAMN, that car was quick.

Bruce
Understatement is a good thing. I just don't see how a 911 in general can fit that way of thinking.


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      03-17-2008, 05:21 PM   #36
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Does anyone have a couple of comparison photos showing the underneath if an M3 and a 335?
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      03-17-2008, 06:29 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
The M3 is a very fine vehicle, no doubt. Well engineered and outfitted, very fast and a very good handler.

But today I got to go over a new one at our local dealer, and found that, from a looks standpoint, I like the 335 (and 328) better. Much better. The M3 has that hood bulge, various air ducts, and body cladding, all of which tend to screw up the very clean lines on the base coupes.

I feel the same way about 911s. One of my sons has a 911S in Arctic Silver, and frankly, next to a C4S or Turbo, it's classically beautiful. Those other models are scooped and spoilered to a fare thee well, and for me, that doesn't do it.

Yeah, I know. A lot of folks want their speed to show, so that's how manufacturers build 'em. It's a pity, though. Some of us don't want their speed to show.

Sigh. Maybe I should go find my old '98 Neon (if it hasn't rusted into a shapeless pile by now). There was a car where the speed didn't show.

Sure, it was a POS, but on track, DAMN, that car was quick.

Bruce
Sometimes less is more. However, if you like the 997S, why do you not like the 997C4S? The only difference is the slightly wider hips, whch are maybe 17mm wider (total width).
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      03-18-2008, 05:32 PM   #38
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Don't usually? I'd say, almost never. Unless it's one of the 3 options listed here:

1) Rich kid whose parent are buying the car
2) Kid involved in dishonest business
3) Young professional with the priorities upside down

I disagree the target market is yourger audiences. I bet demography of M3 buyers will be all over the place. Younger audiences might more likely to dream about this car, but not exactly buying it. By the way I'm using 25 and under for younger audiences.
I definately fall into category 3
Only I own a home,
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      03-18-2008, 05:35 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkNg335i View Post
it's days is numbered
As are those of the English language, apparently.
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      03-18-2008, 06:11 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkNg335i View Post
Until BMW make the M3 faster than the M5 and M6, it's days is numbered
M3 is faster around the 'ring than any other stock BMW (save the CSL, E92 CSL here we come), and that's all that matters to us badge whores!

For me, the M3 wins for several reasons, not in any particular order.

1) Better DD than 335 -- EDC beats any stock or aftermarket solution for the 335 as I can be more comfortable on bad roads and then change to better performance at the push of a button.

2) Mods never work out for me, ever. Cars, computers, what not. I am always the guy with issues. Plus, no local shops impress me enough for me to trust spending $10k+ on chip, exhaust, brakes, suspension to simulate an M3.

3) Enhanced premium sound -- local audio shops suck. I installed new speakers, subwoofer and amp myself in the E46. a/d/s, JL audio, good stuff. Maintenance has been a PITA. Don't plan on doing that again.

4) Better track performance -- I don't care about stoplight races against kids. Reckless driving actually means something to me. Plan on doing track school and events.

5) Leather. Owns the 335. Extended leather beats it silly.

6) Looks -- CF roof, distinctive color, better trim, better stock wheels (that are *forged* which is a necessity here)

7) DCT -- mmmmm can't wait.

8) Total Cost of Ownership -- I plan to sell the car in 3-4 years (likely for another M3), and the E92 will likely be cheaper to barely more expensive to own over that time than a well-modded 335. This, of course, depends on residuals, but mods add cost without adding resale value, especially in my market.

9) High-revving, great sounding. MMM good.

Both are great cars. The target markets for both are much older than the average forum age here -- don't be fooled. The most vocal agitators for both sides of the 335 modded vs M3 debate tend to be the younger members of the forum, imho.
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      03-18-2008, 06:20 PM   #41
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+1 to Keto.

335 owners, feel free to debate the topic, but posts like that one from MarkNg335i just make you sound childish and envious, which we know the vast majority of you are not.

Bruce your observations and thoughts are always appreciated!
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      03-18-2008, 06:22 PM   #42
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i cant wait till a 300hp 1 series starts whoopin on these 3 series owners so they will start to shut up. then they will have someone else in their own league to beef with instead of stepping into big dog territory lol
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      03-18-2008, 06:33 PM   #43
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Quote:
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8) Total Cost of Ownership -- I plan to sell the car in 3-4 years (likely for another M3), and the E92 will likely be cheaper to barely more expensive to own over that time than a well-modded 335. This, of course, depends on residuals, but mods add cost without adding resale value, especially in my market.
.

Great points Keto. #8 has not been talked about much but is so right on target. If owning a vehicle for three years or less, heavy mods kill you in total cost of ownership due to the extremely high depreciation.
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      03-18-2008, 07:06 PM   #44
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Drives: e92 ///M3; X3 (wife's)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lecatrache View Post
Don't usually? I'd say, almost never. Unless it's one of the 3 options listed here:

1) Rich kid whose parent are buying the car
2) Kid involved in dishonest business
3) Young professional with the priorities upside down

I disagree the target market is yourger audiences. I bet demography of M3 buyers will be all over the place. Younger audiences might more likely to dream about this car, but not exactly buying it. By the way I'm using 25 and under for younger audiences.
Can I create a 4th category for argument sake: young professional you started his own company that exploded.
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"...it's not about the money and not about the brand of the car, it's about handling,performance and passion......And that, no other car has all together like an M3........when you talk about the most complete car the M is invincible." --Tony Kanaan.
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