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      03-12-2008, 02:05 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by GH32335i View Post
You started your argument with "most likely"?
Yes.

The point is, there's far far more evidence supporting the evolution theory of creation than the Christian theology. There is NO evidence of the Book of Genesis, other than the book itself.

That, is simple fact.

For the record, you're talkign to a Catholic School educated, agnostic. I know my bible, (and quran and torah for that matter)
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      03-12-2008, 02:30 PM   #24
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[quote=GH32335i;2293819][quote=Neurorad;2293355]Uh, evolution is not a theory. It's a proven fact.

How life started is debatable, but evolution has been proven conclusively.
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The evolution of man has been proven conclusively? I guess I was out that day in school when they presented your missing link.
Actually, a common ancestor has been proven based on Mitochondrial DNA, skelteal DNA, and of course skeletal structure. It's well established the Primates all evolved from the same ancestor, based on this information.

It is generally well accepted that the earliest primates evolved from the earliest members of order Chiroptera (bats), some 85 million years ago, and originated in North America.

About 40 million years ago, as the Antartic Icecap finished forming, and climate shifted closer towards where it is today, primates went extinct everywhere other than Africa, and SE Asia. European Hominids are the ancestors of current Primates, including humans, as well as great apes, and new and old world monkeys. They re-entred Africa from Eurasia about 24mil years ago.

The "missing link" is generally considered to be the period between 35 and 24 million years ago, a slice of time that is missing when it comes to Hominid evolution. The only link in this period is the mysterious appearance of New World monkies. They appeared the same time as numerous other West African animals appeared in South America, and the means by which all these species arrived is still unknown.

Between 20 and 4 million years ago, the various Primate species began their own, seperate evolution. Chimps, Humans, and Gorillas were the last to break off from the common ancestor, with chimps and humans breaking apart about 4 million years ago, which is why humans and chimps have ~98.5% indentical DNA, and almost completely identical mitochondrial DNA. The further evolution of the Great Apes is more difficult to trace from this point onwards, because fossils do not form reliably in the Tropical Rainforests.

Humans however, lived primarily in the grasslands, so we have plenty of fossils there. The earliest fossils that could be classified as "near human" are found between 7 and 4 millino years ago. Genus Australophiticus appeared 4 million years ago, and are generally considered the first humans. About 2 million years, genus Homo popped up, offshots from several earlier human genuses, and it is with the start of Homo that "modern" humans appear.

Interestingly, the vast majority of Homo species are our cousins, rather than direct ancestors, evolved from a common ancestor. Homo ergastor is the ancestor of the later Homo species.

There are basically three parts of the final Homo family tree, all evolving from Homo ergaster/Homo erectus ergaster. Between 1.2 and 1.4 million years ago, Homo ergaster diverged into Homo antecessor, and Homo erectus. Homo erectus persisted until ~150,000 years ago.

From Homo antecessor, Homo rhodensiensis evolved between 750 and 550 thousand years ago. Between 500 and 400 thousand years ago, European rhodensiensis evolved into neanderthalis. Between 250 and 220 thousand years ago, African rhodensiensis evolved into sapiens (current Homo species, human beings). Neanderthalis persisted until about 50,000 years ago, when it was wiped out by H. sapiens migrating into Europe.

Roughly 40 thousand years ago, Human technology started advancing by leaps and bounds, and we all know what happened from there.

There is some evidence that another species of Homo evolved from sapiens about 100,000 years ago, and lived until 12,000 years ago. However, a lot of evidence suggests that this species, H. floresiensis was actually just a seperate population, that was a pygmy, or dwarf species. This is supported by the fact that the modern primative residents of Flores are, in fact, pygmies.

The "missing link" that is often talked about, actually isn't important to the evolution of humans, but rather the evolution of ultra-primitive primates, into the more modern primate families. The evolution of humans from the ancient African primates (20 million years ago) is well known, and well preserved.
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      03-12-2008, 02:33 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by E82tt6 View Post

How life started is debatable, but evolution has been proven conclusively.
Yep. The humorous part, is that even thought evolution is proven, Creationists ignore that science and debate how it started, despite the fact that it proves the earth is thousands of times older than the bible says.
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      03-12-2008, 05:24 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by E82tt6 View Post
Uh, evolution is not a theory. It's a proven fact.

How life started is debatable, but evolution has been proven conclusively.

Actually, a common ancestor has been proven based on Mitochondrial DNA, skelteal DNA, and of course skeletal structure. It's well established the Primates all evolved from the same ancestor, based on this information.

It is generally well accepted that the earliest primates evolved from the earliest members of order Chiroptera (bats), some 85 million years ago, and originated in North America.

About 40 million years ago, as the Antartic Icecap finished forming, and climate shifted closer towards where it is today, primates went extinct everywhere other than Africa, and SE Asia. European Hominids are the ancestors of current Primates, including humans, as well as great apes, and new and old world monkeys. They re-entred Africa from Eurasia about 24mil years ago.

The "missing link" is generally considered to be the period between 35 and 24 million years ago, a slice of time that is missing when it comes to Hominid evolution. The only link in this period is the mysterious appearance of New World monkies. They appeared the same time as numerous other West African animals appeared in South America, and the means by which all these species arrived is still unknown.

Between 20 and 4 million years ago, the various Primate species began their own, seperate evolution. Chimps, Humans, and Gorillas were the last to break off from the common ancestor, with chimps and humans breaking apart about 4 million years ago, which is why humans and chimps have ~98.5% indentical DNA, and almost completely identical mitochondrial DNA. The further evolution of the Great Apes is more difficult to trace from this point onwards, because fossils do not form reliably in the Tropical Rainforests.

Humans however, lived primarily in the grasslands, so we have plenty of fossils there. The earliest fossils that could be classified as "near human" are found between 7 and 4 millino years ago. Genus Australophiticus appeared 4 million years ago, and are generally considered the first humans. About 2 million years, genus Homo popped up, offshots from several earlier human genuses, and it is with the start of Homo that "modern" humans appear.

Interestingly, the vast majority of Homo species are our cousins, rather than direct ancestors, evolved from a common ancestor. Homo ergastor is the ancestor of the later Homo species.

There are basically three parts of the final Homo family tree, all evolving from Homo ergaster/Homo erectus ergaster. Between 1.2 and 1.4 million years ago, Homo ergaster diverged into Homo antecessor, and Homo erectus. Homo erectus persisted until ~150,000 years ago.

From Homo antecessor, Homo rhodensiensis evolved between 750 and 550 thousand years ago. Between 500 and 400 thousand years ago, European rhodensiensis evolved into neanderthalis. Between 250 and 220 thousand years ago, African rhodensiensis evolved into sapiens (current Homo species, human beings). Neanderthalis persisted until about 50,000 years ago, when it was wiped out by H. sapiens migrating into Europe.

Roughly 40 thousand years ago, Human technology started advancing by leaps and bounds, and we all know what happened from there.

There is some evidence that another species of Homo evolved from sapiens about 100,000 years ago, and lived until 12,000 years ago. However, a lot of evidence suggests that this species, H. floresiensis was actually just a seperate population, that was a pygmy, or dwarf species. This is supported by the fact that the modern primative residents of Flores are, in fact, pygmies.

The "missing link" that is often talked about, actually isn't important to the evolution of humans, but rather the evolution of ultra-primitive primates, into the more modern primate families. The evolution of humans from the ancient African primates (20 million years ago) is well known, and well preserved.
I remember this in my Archaeology class, boring class, but this topic was the only thing that kept me awake.
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      03-12-2008, 05:35 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by GH32335i View Post
NO ONE has any solid concrete evidence of where life came from. Many of you have accepted a theory based on scientific hypothesis, which is fine. And many of us have accepted it to be by the design of a supreme being.

No matter which way you think, you have no solid proof and no right whatsoever to ridicule and make jokes about another group. I believe that God created all, and I feel that the Bible offers sufficient proof. If you don't that is up to you.
If I said I believe G.Dub created the universe and I found that out in his biography, do you think people will laugh at me and mock at my believe?

I have faith in G.Dub though, I found enough evidence in his biography to convince myself. I call this..the Dub Theory.
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      03-12-2008, 07:08 PM   #28
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The evolution of man has been proven conclusively? I guess I was out that day in school when they presented your missing link.
You've been out of school a lot, judging by your posts.

However, evidence is readily available for those willing to learn. Help yourself to it.
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      03-13-2008, 07:21 AM   #29
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You've been out of school a lot, judging by your posts.
Damn! Give him a break - he's very young and ignorant.
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      03-13-2008, 07:25 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by E82tt6 View Post
Actually, a common ancestor has been proven based on Mitochondrial DNA, skelteal DNA, and of course skeletal structure. It's well established the Primates all evolved from the same ancestor, based on this information.

It is generally well accepted that the earliest primates evolved from the earliest members of order Chiroptera (bats), some 85 million years ago, and originated in North America.

About 40 million years ago, as the Antartic Icecap finished forming, and climate shifted closer towards where it is today, primates went extinct everywhere other than Africa, and SE Asia. European Hominids are the ancestors of current Primates, including humans, as well as great apes, and new and old world monkeys. They re-entred Africa from Eurasia about 24mil years ago.

The "missing link" is generally considered to be the period between 35 and 24 million years ago, a slice of time that is missing when it comes to Hominid evolution. The only link in this period is the mysterious appearance of New World monkies. They appeared the same time as numerous other West African animals appeared in South America, and the means by which all these species arrived is still unknown.

Between 20 and 4 million years ago, the various Primate species began their own, seperate evolution. Chimps, Humans, and Gorillas were the last to break off from the common ancestor, with chimps and humans breaking apart about 4 million years ago, which is why humans and chimps have ~98.5% indentical DNA, and almost completely identical mitochondrial DNA. The further evolution of the Great Apes is more difficult to trace from this point onwards, because fossils do not form reliably in the Tropical Rainforests.

Humans however, lived primarily in the grasslands, so we have plenty of fossils there. The earliest fossils that could be classified as "near human" are found between 7 and 4 millino years ago. Genus Australophiticus appeared 4 million years ago, and are generally considered the first humans. About 2 million years, genus Homo popped up, offshots from several earlier human genuses, and it is with the start of Homo that "modern" humans appear.

Interestingly, the vast majority of Homo species are our cousins, rather than direct ancestors, evolved from a common ancestor. Homo ergastor is the ancestor of the later Homo species.

There are basically three parts of the final Homo family tree, all evolving from Homo ergaster/Homo erectus ergaster. Between 1.2 and 1.4 million years ago, Homo ergaster diverged into Homo antecessor, and Homo erectus. Homo erectus persisted until ~150,000 years ago.

From Homo antecessor, Homo rhodensiensis evolved between 750 and 550 thousand years ago. Between 500 and 400 thousand years ago, European rhodensiensis evolved into neanderthalis. Between 250 and 220 thousand years ago, African rhodensiensis evolved into sapiens (current Homo species, human beings). Neanderthalis persisted until about 50,000 years ago, when it was wiped out by H. sapiens migrating into Europe.

Roughly 40 thousand years ago, Human technology started advancing by leaps and bounds, and we all know what happened from there.

There is some evidence that another species of Homo evolved from sapiens about 100,000 years ago, and lived until 12,000 years ago. However, a lot of evidence suggests that this species, H. floresiensis was actually just a seperate population, that was a pygmy, or dwarf species. This is supported by the fact that the modern primative residents of Flores are, in fact, pygmies.

The "missing link" that is often talked about, actually isn't important to the evolution of humans, but rather the evolution of ultra-primitive primates, into the more modern primate families. The evolution of humans from the ancient African primates (20 million years ago) is well known, and well preserved.

Thanks, Professor.
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      03-13-2008, 05:30 PM   #31
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Damn! Give him a break - he's very young and ignorant.
It's better to slap him while young...than when it's too late...
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      03-13-2008, 08:11 PM   #32
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It's amazing that you never heard of it before! It's high school biology stuff!!
Basic high school biology! Maybe in your school. My high school days go way back in the seventies and although some of the elements of E82tt6 prose are high-school level others are definitely college-level.

I enjoyed E82tt6's description of the latest hypothesis regarding comets. I had not heard or read about this hypothesis. I subscribe to Scientific American and E82tt6's post could be conceivably be read in that fine magazine.

Thanks E82tt6.
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      03-13-2008, 10:28 PM   #33
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      03-14-2008, 11:41 AM   #34
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OP - good question. This is the main reason that I'm not an Atheist but Agnostic. I know the biological school reason and the Christian/Jewish reason. I have trouble believing that life started as an "accident" or amazing luck but I also (as stated on your other thread) have a hard time believing that God exists because of all that has happened and continues to happen since life came into existence.
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      03-14-2008, 01:11 PM   #35
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Basic high school biology! Maybe in your school. My high school days go way back in the seventies and although some of the elements of E82tt6 prose are high-school level others are definitely college-level.

I enjoyed E82tt6's description of the latest hypothesis regarding comets. I had not heard or read about this hypothesis. I subscribe to Scientific American and E82tt6's post could be conceivably be read in that fine magazine.

Thanks E82tt6.
I appreciate the compliment!

If you do a google, you can probably dig up some of the more recent comet-probe findings.

I don't think any of them have been published in Scientific American, because they really are quite recent.

Some of the comet ideas have been pondered for quite a while, as spectral analysis can give us SOME idea about the makeup, but the discovery of large amounts of clay, and some rather complex organic molecules are what the newest discoveries really contribute. That, and the discovery earth-bound bacteria that use radiation for energy are two big pieces of evidence for the "comet" theory.
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      03-14-2008, 01:19 PM   #36
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there isn't any proof for either......that's why they are called BELIEFS. These threads are miserable.
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      03-14-2008, 01:43 PM   #37
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You've been out of school a lot, judging by your posts.

However, evidence is readily available for those willing to learn. Help yourself to it.
That's a mature response. Yep, I'm sure I've been out of school longer than you have, because from your posts and arguments it's obvious that you are either in school or just got out. It's also obvious that you bought into all the horse crap that your liberal teachers/professors were promoting.

Maybe when you take your lessons more from life and life experiences like I have you'll have more insight into life than what you've been told in a classroom by a bunch of liberal wanks that can't survive in the real world and aren't able to leave the school setting that they've been in since they were in kindergarten.

I have an MBA in economics and one of my finance professors opened an account at the investment firm where I was working. I have never seen such an idiot when it came to actually taking his nose out of the book with all the theories and hypothesis and making a frickin trade. "Gee, Dr. xxxx, doesn't work like you and your buddies theories thought it would, and thank you for your money".

Ever heard of Long Term Capital Management? It was a hedge fund run by a bunch of academics, two of which won the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics, they lost close to $5 billion in four months. So much for the brilliant minds of academia.

As for me being ignorant, I make my living by trading stocks, commodities, and currencies. I'm exteremely good at it, and all I use are strategies that I've created on my own. My success has come from doing all the thinking on my own and tuning out the people that say they're so smart. To me, listening to CNBC is a joke, they're idiots.

As for the Bible just being one of those books, I have spent countless hours researching it and learning it. And this is where we agree, evidence is readily available for those willing to learn. Help yourself to it.

In closing I will say that all my religion requires of me is to present my beliefs, it's up to each individual to accept it or not. You obviously don't accept it, and that's fine, it's your decision. To bad you aren't big enough to make that statement about me.

I've made several posts on these religion threads, and I'm done. It has become apparent that a number of you are just miserable, closed minded people who have nothing better to do than ridicule and mock people that have a belief different than yours. Why is it that liberals such as yourself preach being open minded and accepting each individual as they are, yet when people don't see it your way, you get all po'd?

Good luck gambling with your soul, and your God hating lifestyle. I hope it serves you well. Go ahead and flame away, I won't be back to check on your witty little responses, because you're a waste of time.
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      03-14-2008, 03:28 PM   #38
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That's a mature response. Yep, I'm sure I've been out of school longer than you have...horse crap that your liberal teachers/professors were promoting...told in a classroom by a bunch of liberal wanks...can't survive in the real world...I have an MBA in economics...thank you for your money...So much for the brilliant minds of academia...me being ignorant, I make my living by trading...all the thinking...and tuning out the people that say they're so smart...listening to CNBC is a joke...they're idiots.

As for the Bible just being one of those books, I have spent countless hours researching it and learning it.

In closing I will say that all my religion requires of me is to present my beliefs...it's up to each individual...it's your decision..Too bad you aren't big enough to make that statement about me...I'm done....just miserable, closed minded people...ridicule and mock people...Why is it that liberals such as yourself preach being open minded and accepting each individual as they are, yet when people don't see it your way, you get all po'd?

Good luck gambling with your soul, and your God hating lifestyle. I hope it serves you well. Go ahead and flame away, I won't be back to check on your witty little responses, because you're a waste of time.
Crash, and burn. Ignorant. Narrow-minded. Unaware.

I guess they don't teach you anything when you get your MBA from Bob Jones University.
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      03-14-2008, 03:38 PM   #39
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The fact that all life on earth is the result of a very lucky combination of elements and enviromental factory is old news. However, the comfort of a higher power and an afterlife are too attractive for most poeple to dismiss. As for me...I think that our evolution in spite of the enormous odds against it is far more miraculous than the belief that God put us all here.

Amino acids are created in laboratory
1953


Photo: Stanely Miller in lab

In 1929 British biochemist John Haldane (1892-1964) put forth the theory that the early atmosphere of Earth contained no free oxygen. Haldane and Soviet biochemist Aleksander Oparin (1894-1980) had both suggested that all the ingredients for life existed on Earth from the beginning and that energy from the sun and some unknown process had gotten life started.

In 1952 American chemist Harold C. Urey (1893-1981) published an elaboration of Haldane's theory, suggesting that Earth had formed from a cold stellar dust cloud. Its early atmosphere was then roughly similar to that of the rest of the universe -- that is, mostly hydrogen with traces of other elements. Urey figured that the trace oxygen, nitrogen, and carbon would be bound with hydrogen and exist as water, ammonia, and methane. With so much hydrogen around, free oxygen could not exist (it would always get bound up with hydrogen and form water). But as time went by (lots of time), many of the extremely light hydrogen atoms escaped into outer space until the balance changed. Without an excess of hydrogen, free oxygen could exist and gradually accumulate in Earth's atmosphere.

Stanley Miller (b. 1930) was a doctoral student working with Urey at the University of Chicago, researching possible environments of early Earth. In 1953 he combined the ideas of Urey and Oparin in a short, simple experiment.

He reproduced the early atmosphere of Earth that Urey proposed by creating a chamber with only hydrogen, water, methane, and ammonia. To speed up "geologic time" in his experiment, he boiled the water and instead of exposing the mix to ultraviolet light he used an electric discharge something like lightning. After just a week, Miller had a residue of compounds settled in his system. He analyzed them and the results were electrifying: Organic compounds had been formed, most notably some of the "building blocks of life," amino acids. Amino acids are necessary to form proteins which themselves form the structure of cells and play important roles in the biochemical reactions life requires. Miller found the amino acids glycine, alanine, aspartic and glutamic acid, and others. Fifteen percent of the carbon from the methane had been combined into organic compounds. As amazing as discovering amino acids at all was how easily they had formed.

That same year, the structure of DNA was elucidated, revealing even more strikingly the crucial role of very basic organic compounds. It also revealed a way in which some compounds -- nucleic acids -- could replicate and keep life going. The base pairs within DNA, which actually transfer the genetic code, are made of simple nitrogen-based compounds. Later researchers using techniques like Miller's were able to synthesize many of the components of DNA from gases thought to be present in the early atmosphere. In 1960 Juan Oró synthesized adenine, one of DNA's four bases and also a key component of ATP (adenosine triphosphate), an energy-carrier in cell respiration.

Miller's work showed that compounds necessary for life could have been formed in an environment without free oxygen, confirming Haldane's theory. The creation of amino acids from Earth's raw materials may well have been the first step of evolution. It also opens the possibility (since the proposed atmosphere was based on proportions of elements in the universe) that similar atoms and amino acids could have formed elsewhere, on planets formed in the same manner as Earth.
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      03-14-2008, 10:42 PM   #40
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GH32335i,

This is the thread you started, and now you run away defeated, insecure and angry. Understandable.

Please go away. You are not debate worthy.

Your arguments quality is way less than mediocre.

Your last post is at the top ten ignorant on this forum.

Run Forest, run.....
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      03-15-2008, 01:37 AM   #41
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This thread is great. tons of cool info (post 39 for example)
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      03-15-2008, 05:38 AM   #42
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our evolution in spite of the enormous odds against it is far more miraculous than the belief that God put us all here.
An unusual quality of evolution is that it completely explains how systems become more complicated. There is no "in spite of" with evolution - that's what's supposed to happen.

The degree of complexity is just mind-blowing, though! It's almost magic...
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      03-15-2008, 11:09 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by GH32335i View Post
That's a mature response. Yep, I'm sure I've been out of school longer than you have, because from your posts and arguments it's obvious that you are either in school or just got out. It's also obvious that you bought into all the horse crap that your liberal teachers/professors were promoting.

Maybe when you take your lessons more from life and life experiences like I have you'll have more insight into life than what you've been told in a classroom by a bunch of liberal wanks that can't survive in the real world and aren't able to leave the school setting that they've been in since they were in kindergarten.

I have an MBA in economics and one of my finance professors opened an account at the investment firm where I was working. I have never seen such an idiot when it came to actually taking his nose out of the book with all the theories and hypothesis and making a frickin trade. "Gee, Dr. xxxx, doesn't work like you and your buddies theories thought it would, and thank you for your money".

Ever heard of Long Term Capital Management? It was a hedge fund run by a bunch of academics, two of which won the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics, they lost close to $5 billion in four months. So much for the brilliant minds of academia.

As for me being ignorant, I make my living by trading stocks, commodities, and currencies. I'm exteremely good at it, and all I use are strategies that I've created on my own. My success has come from doing all the thinking on my own and tuning out the people that say they're so smart. To me, listening to CNBC is a joke, they're idiots.

As for the Bible just being one of those books, I have spent countless hours researching it and learning it. And this is where we agree, evidence is readily available for those willing to learn. Help yourself to it.

In closing I will say that all my religion requires of me is to present my beliefs, it's up to each individual to accept it or not. You obviously don't accept it, and that's fine, it's your decision. To bad you aren't big enough to make that statement about me.

I've made several posts on these religion threads, and I'm done. It has become apparent that a number of you are just miserable, closed minded people who have nothing better to do than ridicule and mock people that have a belief different than yours. Why is it that liberals such as yourself preach being open minded and accepting each individual as they are, yet when people don't see it your way, you get all po'd?

Good luck gambling with your soul, and your God hating lifestyle. I hope it serves you well. Go ahead and flame away, I won't be back to check on your witty little responses, because you're a waste of time.
Nope, I don't believe you went to College. You're just throwing words at us here, hoping it would sound smart and mature.
I don't think you're over 16...maybe 19.
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      03-15-2008, 08:59 PM   #44
Carolyn0944
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GH32335i View Post
That's a mature response. Yep, I'm sure I've been out of school longer than you have, because from your posts and arguments it's obvious that you are either in school or just got out. It's also obvious that you bought into all the horse crap that your liberal teachers/professors were promoting.

Maybe when you take your lessons more from life and life experiences like I have you'll have more insight into life than what you've been told in a classroom by a bunch of liberal wanks that can't survive in the real world and aren't able to leave the school setting that they've been in since they were in kindergarten.

I have an MBA in economics and one of my finance professors opened an account at the investment firm where I was working. I have never seen such an idiot when it came to actually taking his nose out of the book with all the theories and hypothesis and making a frickin trade. "Gee, Dr. xxxx, doesn't work like you and your buddies theories thought it would, and thank you for your money".

Ever heard of Long Term Capital Management? It was a hedge fund run by a bunch of academics, two of which won the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics, they lost close to $5 billion in four months. So much for the brilliant minds of academia.

As for me being ignorant, I make my living by trading stocks, commodities, and currencies. I'm exteremely good at it, and all I use are strategies that I've created on my own. My success has come from doing all the thinking on my own and tuning out the people that say they're so smart. To me, listening to CNBC is a joke, they're idiots.

As for the Bible just being one of those books, I have spent countless hours researching it and learning it. And this is where we agree, evidence is readily available for those willing to learn. Help yourself to it.

In closing I will say that all my religion requires of me is to present my beliefs, it's up to each individual to accept it or not. You obviously don't accept it, and that's fine, it's your decision. To bad you aren't big enough to make that statement about me.

I've made several posts on these religion threads, and I'm done. It has become apparent that a number of you are just miserable, closed minded people who have nothing better to do than ridicule and mock people that have a belief different than yours. Why is it that liberals such as yourself preach being open minded and accepting each individual as they are, yet when people don't see it your way, you get all po'd?

Good luck gambling with your soul, and your God hating lifestyle. I hope it serves you well. Go ahead and flame away, I won't be back to check on your witty little responses, because you're a waste of time.
very well said....kudos for u
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