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      03-08-2008, 04:04 PM   #23
devo
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Originally Posted by gblansten View Post
It is taking all of my years of maturity to not post a witty response.
Haha. I deserve that one.
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      03-08-2008, 04:18 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by footie View Post
skierman64 & Devo,

Ignore the benefits of the DCT in terms of acceleration, economy and speed of shift, there is a very simple question that needs to be answered.

Would you be happy you live most of the time with an automatic car?

If the answer is yes as long as the gearbox always kicks down quickly and on demand then I can answer you both that DCT is most definitely be for you. The manual modes will be brilliant, of this I am in no doubt, when you flick the paddle the gear will be picked in a flash. But you still have to remember that paddles are a curse when you have to turn the wheel move than a third of a turn because then the paddles become reversed and this is difficult to use and this happens at ever stop sign that you have to turn either left or right. That why I say you will use auto mode quite a lot.

If you can't imagine living with an automatic then there is no need to explain anything, pick the manual and be happy.
This will be one of those never ending debates. Anyway, I agree with some, maybe much, of what you are saying, but you have to admit Footie, you are very dogmatic about this topic. I really do not see how the paddle issue will have much bearing since you usually do not shift a stick while near or at full steering lock, so why not wait until the wheel is close to straight before executing a shift with DCT?

Also, you repeatedly remark that the auto mode will likely be the fastest so one might as well use only the full auto mode to achieve the fastest times. I believe that you are over thinking this a little. If that is the case, then in order of succession, auto would be fastest, with DCT a close second and 6MT third. Well, if shifting by the DCT interface is faster than the 6MT, you have still benefited, even though the fully automated version may still be a bit faster. Most people like DCT because they are still shifting when they want and because it is faster than the 6MT. For most of them (me included) if any form of a fully automated transmission (I do not want to say "tranny" anymore) was to be faster I clearly would not go that way because elective shifting has been removed.
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      03-08-2008, 04:29 PM   #25
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Haha. I deserve that one.
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      03-08-2008, 06:03 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gblansten View Post
It is taking all of my years of maturity to not post a witty response.
Me too, I had to let it go...however it reminds me of an episode of "Law and Order, Special Victims Unit"
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      03-08-2008, 06:22 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
skierman64 & Devo,

Ignore the benefits of the DCT in terms of acceleration, economy and speed of shift, there is a very simple question that needs to be answered.

Would you be happy you live most of the time with an automatic car?

If the answer is yes as long as the gearbox always kicks down quickly and on demand then I can answer you both that DCT is most definitely be for you. The manual modes will be brilliant, of this I am in no doubt, when you flick the paddle the gear will be picked in a flash. But you still have to remember that paddles are a curse when you have to turn the wheel move than a third of a turn because then the paddles become reversed and this is difficult to use and this happens at ever stop sign that you have to turn either left or right. That why I say you will use auto mode quite a lot.

If you can't imagine living with an automatic then there is no need to explain anything, pick the manual and be happy.
Call the DCT what you want. I wouldn't be happy with an M3 with a conventional automatic slushbox that takes the engine's power transfers it to hydraulic fluid and then back out to the driveshaft. I have to admit, I wouldn't like that style of transmission on my sports coupe. But I do want DCT, call it an automatic if you wish, however it "ain't" no traditional automatic.

If I'm in a turn and I need to shift gears, I've already screwed up. As a manual transmission driver you should know that shifting gears mid corner upsets the balance of the car and at the limits of adhesion can cause a spin. However, let's assume I was distracted or something unexpected happens in the middle of a turn where my steering wheel is 180 degrees out. That's where I reach to my DCT controller and tap it forward to downshift or pull back to upshift (see avatar). Very easy, very simple. No steering wheel paddles needed.
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      03-08-2008, 06:33 PM   #28
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I wish more people felt so negatively about the M-DCT. Unfortunately, a call to me dealer today does not confirm this.

I was told my production was pushed back from week 10 (this week), to WHENEVER because EVERYONE wants the M-DCT and as they said to me at the dealer "UNTIL SUPPLY CATCHES UP WITH DEMAND, IT'S A WAITING GAME"
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      03-08-2008, 07:07 PM   #29
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I think you guys are think about when you are either flooring the thing or driving bloody quickly, this was not what I was meaning. When I said turning from a junction or going round a roundabout I was meaning travelling at a slow, normal, everyday pace, the kind that has you changing up from first to second as soon as you have the wheels moving. It with this type of driving that I found working the paddles a curse and the reason I starting using the box in full auto mode.

The reason I asked whether you would be happy with an automatic was not because the DCT will behave like one of those, it's much, much better than that, for starters you don't have a torque converter so no slack to be taken up with when you floor it and they do drop three gears in an instance when floored so work perfectly well in full auto mode.

My problem as I have stated in numerous posts is that I started using the car more and more in auto mode because of the above problems in normal driving and fell in to that habit which eventually lead to me using auto mode almost exclusively at which point I felt that why have such a sportie wee number like a GTI and end up driving it like a luxury saloon.

My demands may not be the same as yours and you may be able to feel you can use both modes in equal harmony, but I felt the need to tell people my experiences and hope some make the right decision based on it.

That's all I have to say on the matter.
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      03-08-2008, 10:09 PM   #30
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Footie; good summary. Does the VW allow you to change gears using the gear selector as opposed to the wheel paddles?
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      03-08-2008, 10:54 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skierman64 View Post
Footie; good summary. Does the VW allow you to change gears using the gear selector as opposed to the wheel paddles?
I believe the GTi lets you shift with the stick, but on my test drive I was shifting with the paddles. I think the GTi shifted up at redline no matter what (if you were in manual mode it would grab the next gear for you).

Footie--I am not sure I see why you want to shift up so soon (ie. as soon as you are moving). I have a S2000 with such a long way to redline (like the M3) it's almost a crime to shift before it's time.

I understand wanting to save gas or whatnot but IMO that's not why people are getting the M3 whereas they could get a 335i (less sporty, more tourqey if they wanted to shift at 2500 rpms to save gas).

Of course I don't know what I'm talking about not haven driven the M3 but I have driven cars like the GT3, Vantage (etc.) so I am aware they are much more fun to leave them in lower gears (rev the engine). Perhapse, as you say just doing A-B driving it's better to leave in auto mode.

I'm undecided about the DCT, would like to see the gas mileage (ie. GG tax here in the states) as well as the LC if that is watered down so that the 6MT is just as quick as from a start (already the 6MT is close to a 430hp Corvette in the 0-100 MPH magazine tests) so if the LC does not do anything better I'd save my $$ most likely.

I am not into track-racing so mainly for stop-light go, I'd like the best launch but probably (I'm willing to bet) there is not going to be a huge difference between either tranny. As well if somebody said the DCT weighs +50 lbs even tho that's not a large weight, it does count for something.

Probably the lowest weight (coupe with no options) to the heaviest weight (sedan with sunroof and DCT and active shocks) makes up ~150 lb difference which (IMO) is a lot. I know many people don't give a hang about weight as we see BMW will sell a butt load of sunroofs as well as 4000+ lb verts. -- I am just talking about for me. I like low weight, already the M3 is heavy as-is without adding on pounds left right and center.
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      03-08-2008, 11:18 PM   #32
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One other point (for me), I'm trying to save money. LOL that's funny buy a M3 and try to save money that's a good one.

But hey, I'm a bit cheap.

But here in the states, the Coupe costs $2700 and the DCT costs $2700 so together that's $5400 in 'options' plus tax and interest on them.

So, my point is if I want to save somewhere, maybe I'd rahter save on the tranny (which I'm on the fence about) and spend it on the coupe body style.

I know it's just a few bucks a month here or there but the options add up quick it's not hard to see the M3 options add more than $10K to the price.

Price, weight, complexity, I'm half-way thinking to get a base coupe (maybe just bluetooth and i-pod) keep it around $60K
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      03-09-2008, 12:16 AM   #33
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Quote:
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...The bottom line in this point is that you can be sure that the MT will be more reliable than the DCT and that you have to face the fact that there is a slight possibility that this new gearbox sucks.
Talk about both negative and wrong.

For one you absolutely can not say that the MT will be more reliable than the DCT. All it takes is one tiny screw up from a seal sizing issue to a syncro heat treating flaw or a casting anomoly to totally screw a MT. Sure all those things are very rare today but the possbility still exists. As well I certainly agree that in general more complexity correlates with less reliability but this is not a perfect/linear/cause and effect type scenario. It could be that DCT will even turn out to be more reliable than MT. Again not likely but it could be.

Furthermore given the success of the dual clutch boxes that are either available today or those that have already been reviewed, it is quite frankly absurd to think there is any chance that this new BMW/Getrag system will "suck".
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