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      03-08-2008, 11:57 AM   #1
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Pros and Cons of M-DCT

I know there are other threads about the M-DCT if someone feels this should be merged with one of them fine.

I was thinking about the M-DCT and if or if not to get.

I list all the things I can think about it and put in pros or cons. Maybe I forget something or maybe I'm off base some people can add to the list.

Pros:
-faster = faster shift times, shorter gearing, and has launch control which will give better more reliable starts, quicker on the HW since it can downshift quicker and to a lower gear better than a MT can and also on the track more you can get the best gear sooner and can't over-rev the engine.

-easier = easier to drive in traffic or if you have some issue where you can't use a clutch or if you just feel like letting the car shift for itself that's an option

-new and cool = very few cars with DSG and some people prefer the cutting edge or buying the technology of tomorrow today

-fuel economy = to be determined. It can with the extra gear but IDK if it's much or if it will lower the GG tax

Cons:
-Costs = it's $2700 and that's not cheap some people would like a car closer to $60K than close to $70K and may want to keep costs down. But to note some car makers like Audi (R8) and Ferrari/Lambo charge closer to $10K for a sport-shift tranny.

-it's new = it's not been tested yet and it could have a bug or worse. I mean the first SMG (F1 Ferrari tranny) were nowhere near as good as the current gen of F1. Also why hasn't it been tested? The EVO X has the DSG tranny and even tho it's not for sale they are working out the bugs but it has been good enough for it to be tested. I think it's possible the M-DCT is still being hatched (or half-baked) and BMW is not ready to sell it. Maybe it one month it will be wonderful but IDK if it's better to wait till we have seen it proven.

-it's more complex = both it weighs some more and it has more moving parts and computers. I know we live in a computer world, but sometimes the old tried and true way is something save and secure. I mean we kind of know what to expect with a 6-MT. I am not sure about a 7-DCT with the highest revving engine it's ever been used with.
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      03-08-2008, 12:14 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rai View Post
I know there are other threads about the M-DCT if someone feels this should be merged with one of them fine.
Well, most everyone will feel this way. Just FYI.


Quote:
Also why hasn't it been tested? The EVO X has the DSG tranny and even tho it's not for sale they are working out the bugs but it has been good enough for it to be tested. I think it's possible the M-DCT is still being hatched (or half-baked) and BMW is not ready to sell it. Maybe it one month it will be wonderful but IDK if it's better to wait till we have seen it proven.
I don't really understand what you are talking about. Are you honestly saying that you somehow think BMW has not been testing M-DCT?
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      03-08-2008, 12:51 PM   #3
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Well, testing is small scale, it's always possible that a longer-range bug will pop up. That's why we have recalls.
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      03-08-2008, 12:58 PM   #4
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Im guessing that most bugs can be fixed with a software update.

And they have been testing it since 2007...so hopefully most bugs are cleared. We will just have to see how it does in the real world.
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      03-08-2008, 01:40 PM   #5
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I have a con that you missed

6 speed is much more fun!
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      03-08-2008, 01:57 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I don't really understand what you are talking about. Are you honestly saying that you somehow think BMW has not been testing M-DCT?
I feel like I'm talking to a 12 year old.

I said the DCT has not been tested meaning I have not seen one review or road test or a 1/4 mile test or a 0-60 test of the M-DCT. By all means if you can provide me the links of road tests and performance tests I'd love it.

Of course BMW is testing this tranny, do you think I think BMW is not testing the tranny? Like BMW is just are going to put it in a production car and not test it? (you are very rude to me for posting a serious question about if the DCT. If it's so worked out and free of any questions why hasn't it been tested (by car magazines) by now?)

I am saying the tranny has not been put to an independent road test (ie. C&D, R&T, CAR magazine EVO magazine, Edmunds etc..). BMW testing is not the same as real numbers by independent testers

The EVO X MR with the DSG is not out yet but they have been tested by most car magazines.
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      03-08-2008, 02:00 PM   #7
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Dual clutch systems have been on the go now for more than four years so I reckon most if not all the bugs have been ironed out. There is no doubt that in auto mode the system is amazing and the match for most true automatics, so in heavy traffic you will adore the setup if you are that way inclined.

They offer in normal 6sp form equally as good of economy so the 7sp should be even better.

The only possible down side of any of these system is their involvement, if you can live with that then by all means pick it.
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      03-08-2008, 02:07 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Well, most everyone will feel this way. Just FYI.
thanks for speaking for most everyine on the forum

I was posting a legitamate question, I didn't think it would fall into the 'what's more fun' or 'does the BMW come with a auto tranny?' thread.
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      03-08-2008, 02:08 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinxter View Post
I have a con that you missed

6 speed is much more fun!
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      03-08-2008, 02:11 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Dual clutch systems have been on the go now for more than four years so I reckon most if not all the bugs have been ironed out.

They offer in normal 6sp form equally as good of economy so the 7sp should be even better.
good point, just this is the highest rpm engine for a DTC. But then Bugatti and GTR only comes with DCT so I imagine the basic mechanism is worked well out and high-power is not an issue.

I can't wait to see some real test numbers. Also would like to see EPA test it's gas mileage to see if it has as much GG tax. Hard to imagine they will be selling the car so soon and not have it's EPA rating known to anyone.
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      03-08-2008, 02:22 PM   #11
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Hi Ray. I would like to give a more objective point of view regarding the pros/cons of the DCT option.

Pros:
- FASTER: as you say, it's supposed to be faster and launch control is a great feature.

- FUEL ECONOMY: this is also something objective as it has been measured. It may also reduce the GGT.

- RESALE: I do think that in some cases the cars with a DCT will be easier to sell. Let's face it. A lot of people buy the car because it's cool or it's "more than a normal 3-series" and don't have a clue on how to use a clutch.
This is something you can corroborate in the dealerships. MT don't sell as easy as autos.

The other pro's are very variable. "Cool" depends on each person. Some people think a MT is cooler than a auto-clutch. Also... some of us don't think that new is always better. New also means not proven. Easier is also something subjective.. specially because using the auto clutch (e.g. settings) may be a hassle (like in the Aston Vanquish).

Cons:
- PRICE: 2700+tax. Will increase the car's price, but not that much. And maybe will reduce the GGT and save you fuel. So in the long run, it maybe save you money. (also consider the re-sale value).

- It's new: you said it perfectly, and I do think that this is the only objective big CON. It's a new product and even though BMW has tested it, that would never match the real life and the "testing" of thousand of customers. It's like the drug companies. Drugs usually are studied for years before they are released to the formal market (and in thousands of people), but you can see that very frequently some serious reactions come to light after the release (strange example.).

The bottom line in this point is that you can be sure that the MT will be more reliable than the DCT and that you have to face the fact that there is a slight possibility that this new gearbox sucks. (or is not that good). Maybe it comes out to have a problem that can be easily be solved by flashing the software or by changing a part at no cost for you.

You can't make a decision because for someone says the MT is more fun, or easier to use, or "cooler". Those things are variable. Try to consider the "cold facts" and YOUR interests.

The SMG found on the M5 is Ok for a lot of people, but on the other hand, others can't stand it.
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      03-08-2008, 02:27 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
There is no doubt that in auto mode the system is amazing and the match for most true automatics, so in heavy traffic you will adore the setup if you are that way inclined.
Well, at last a member that has driven it. you should tell us more about it!!!
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      03-08-2008, 02:28 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rai View Post
I feel like I'm talking to a 12 year old.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I don't really understand what you are talking about. Are you honestly saying that you somehow think BMW has not been testing M-DCT?
Rai - I have to say that I also read you OP as if you were saying the transmission is coming out untested by Getrag or BMW. As did the first 3 or 4 responses to your OP.

I guess I must be only 12 as well. Wouldn't that suck because I wouldn't get to drive my own car.

I agree it's strange that there have been no reviews by magazines or automotive press on this tranny. I have a feeling that Fifth, Gasman and I will be writing the first reviews of this tranny when we get our cars the first week in April.

As for me I am really not worried about the reliability of this transmission. That's why we have warranties.

Right now, I just can't wait to drive the car.
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      03-08-2008, 02:35 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skierman64 View Post
Rai - I have to say that I also read you OP as if you were saying the transmission is come out untested by Getrag or BMW. As did the first 3 or 4 responses to your OP.
sorry, I wrote the post kind of too quick didn't make it clear.

I have seen many tests of the EVO MR with DSG as long as 3-4 months ago. At least there is some basis for talking the EVO is faster than the MT version of the EVO but the M3 is realling holding it's cards close to the vest.

I know we can say well if the EVO MR is quicker etc. it leads to reason the M3 would also be. But they are not exactly the same.

I know in all lielyhood the M3 tranny will be great, just troubling me that there has not been a sneak-peak or short-take with the new tranny yet.

I guess if it was me, and I had to order one sight unseen or undriven I'd go with the 6MT. But hopefully if/when I get mine both will be around so I can test drive and see how it feels.
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      03-08-2008, 02:43 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rai View Post
I feel like I'm talking to a 12 year old.
I feel like I am talking to a rude and demonstrably immature adult who does not articulate himself well. That's just a feeling though. I suppose the case could be otherwise.

And yes, FYI, I am 12.

Quote:
I said the DCT has not been tested meaning I have not seen one review or road test or a 1/4 mile test or a 0-60 test of the M-DCT.
If that's what you meant - then say it.

Quote:
(you are very rude to me for posting a serious question about if the DCT.
Sorry if it came off rude, but guess what? To me, so did this:

"I know there are other threads about the M-DCT if someone feels this should be merged with one of them fine."

So I guess we are even now. Cool?

Quote:
If it's so worked out and free of any questions why hasn't it been tested (by car magazines) by now?)
It hasn't been tested because BMW hasn't provided testers, because they are just ramping up production now.

So, you think its not ready yet, but it will be by next month? Not remotely likely. They are in production now, so any changes from this point would be very difficult to make. To me the notion that this could be the case is at least as obtuse as the notion that BMW has not been testing the tranny. So really, it was not much a stretch for me to interpret your words that way. See where I am coming from?

Quote:
thanks for speaking for most everyine on the forum

I was posting a legitamate question, I didn't think it would fall into the 'what's more fun' or 'does the BMW come with a auto tranny?' thread.
Maybe so. Nevertheless these issues have been discussed before.
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      03-08-2008, 03:03 PM   #16
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Don't forget the ultra-cool rev-matching on the downshifts.

Also, if it's anything like the M5/6, launch control in the US will be a pale imitation of that available in ROW.
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      03-08-2008, 03:04 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skierman64 View Post
Rai - I have to say that I also read you OP as if you were saying the transmission is coming out untested by Getrag or BMW. As did the first 3 or 4 responses to your OP.

I guess I must be only 12 as well. Wouldn't that suck because I wouldn't get to drive my own car.

I agree it's strange that there have been no reviews by magazines or automotive press on this tranny. I have a feeling that Fifth, Gasman and I will be writing the first reviews of this tranny when we get our cars the first week in April.

As for me I am really not worried about the reliability of this transmission. That's why we have warranties.

Right now, I just can't wait to drive the car.
I too am torn between these two trannys. However, I could not disagree more with your last post about your lack of concern over reliability because you will have a warranty. There were countless SMG III failures that left owners without their cars for extended periods. Some owners had several failures that took days or weeks to fully resolve; albiet, these were likely mostly attributed to early production issues. So, having a warranty is great because you know that BMW is paying, but not knowing when it may be fixed or if it will appear again can be frustrating to say the very least. Just go to a few M5/6 forums and search for the threads.

I am not saying that this will occur and am not saying that M-DCT will not be faster by virtue of gearing and quicker shifts. I am saying that this is a concern for many.
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      03-08-2008, 03:13 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devo View Post
I am not saying that this will occur and am not saying that M-DCT will not be faster by virtue of gearing and quicker shifts. I am saying that this is a concern for many.
I agree, I was looking at the EVO (at least doing a bit of thought) and the tranny in that car (right now) is such that if anny issue with the DSG they just replace the whole unit. I'm sure that's easier for the dealerships (etc.) but can imagine if more than a few people need a new one and they only have xyz number of replacements on hand.

What I mean is if the EVO X, say they have to replace the whole tranny even if it's just a small part and it could be a different part for each tranny so after the replacement trannies are used up you are waiting for a boat to come from Japan before you get your car back.

I know I am using an example of the EVO X which is not the same as the M3 just pointing out if a lot of bugs are around it could take your car off the road. But hopefully you have a nice BMW loaner car in the meantime.

Also I am not saying they will have problems just looking at the worst case.
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      03-08-2008, 03:41 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devo View Post
I too am torn between these two trannys. However, I could not disagree more with your last post about your lack of concern over reliability because you will have a warranty.
No problem, you're allowed or even encouraged to disagree, that's why I began my original sentence with "As for me I am really not worried...."

People should and will disagree, especially on here, but when people resort to personal attacks or even criticizing other people's opinions that's when I think it gets ridiculous and immature. The current DCT debate in another thread on this forum has gotten absurd IMHO.

My dad purchased a early build '02 M3 with SMG and has zero problems with it in 6+ years of ownership, including track time. I also purchased a early production '97 Ford Expedition which I've had for 11 years and it's been nearly flawless over 141K for me.

Perhaps I'm looking at this with rose colored glasses, however, I know I'm covered if things don't work out the way I expect them to.
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      03-08-2008, 03:59 PM   #20
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skierman64 & Devo,

Ignore the benefits of the DCT in terms of acceleration, economy and speed of shift, there is a very simple question that needs to be answered.

Would you be happy you live most of the time with an automatic car?

If the answer is yes as long as the gearbox always kicks down quickly and on demand then I can answer you both that DCT is most definitely be for you. The manual modes will be brilliant, of this I am in no doubt, when you flick the paddle the gear will be picked in a flash. But you still have to remember that paddles are a curse when you have to turn the wheel move than a third of a turn because then the paddles become reversed and this is difficult to use and this happens at ever stop sign that you have to turn either left or right. That why I say you will use auto mode quite a lot.

If you can't imagine living with an automatic then there is no need to explain anything, pick the manual and be happy.
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      03-08-2008, 04:01 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devo View Post
I too am torn between these two trannys. However, I could not disagree more with your last post about your lack of concern over reliability because you will have a warranty. There were countless SMG III failures that left owners without their cars for extended periods. Some owners had several failures that took days or weeks to fully resolve; albiet, these were likely mostly attributed to early production issues. So, having a warranty is great because you know that BMW is paying, but not knowing when it may be fixed or if it will appear again can be frustrating to say the very least. Just go to a few M5/6 forums and search for the threads.

I am not saying that this will occur and am not saying that M-DCT will not be faster by virtue of gearing and quicker shifts. I am saying that this is a concern for many.
It is taking all of my years of maturity to not post a witty response.
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      03-08-2008, 04:02 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skierman64 View Post
No problem, you're allowed or even encouraged to disagree, that's why I began my original sentence with "As for me I am really not worried...."

People should and will disagree, especially on here, but when people resort to personal attacks or even criticizing other people's opinions that I think it gets ridiculous and immature. The current DCT debate in another thread on this forum has gotten absurd IMHO.

My dad purchased a early build '02 M3 with SMG and has zero problems with it in 6+ years of ownership, including track time. I also purchased a early production '97 Ford Expedition which I've had for 11 years and it's been nearly flawless over 141K for me.

Perhaps I'm looking at this with rose colored glasses, however, I know I'm covered if things don't work out the way I expect them to.
I believe that the odds are greatly improving that the tranny will have minimal issues and likely short lived ones at that, since many variants of this tranny have been around for a bit now. I completely agree that insulting someone over their preference is absurd.
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