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      03-06-2008, 01:42 PM   #23
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Well as a proud owner of a late model specially made Mercedes AMG that has the manual mode and paddle shifters and also an E92 M3 with a few improvements but is a 6MT, I can truly say that although I enjoy the flexibility of the 6MT (such as, easier to remember what gear you are in by simply putting your hand down – this is much more evident in track use – , pumping it with the clutch inn to listen to the great sound, doing the difficult heal-and-toe maneuver – if not done perfectly the auto is much, much better in positioning the car when entering curbs –), the auto in Manual mode is much more efficient, easier to drive, and, yes, FUN to use as well, just a bit different!!!
As a side bar, It would be really nice if the DCT (or AMG Speedshift for that matter) has the F430 (or even 360) function where you pull both paddle shifters back at the same time – does no matter what speed – and neutral will engage so that you can pump the throttle and listen to the music and that fabulous gurgling sound. If you hit any of the two paddle shifters, down or up, the car will automatically go into the best gear (up or down) at that speed. Amazing transmission!! Maybe the CLS!!!!!
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      03-06-2008, 01:45 PM   #24
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By the way, if the E92 M3 would have been available with the M-DKT when I got mine, I would have most definitely gotten that one. They just didn’t have it and I wasn’t about to wait another 6 months at least before I got my hands on the M3.
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      03-06-2008, 01:48 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
My background: I have always owned MTs and like enigma don't like autos and would not really considering owning one. However, that being said automatics like the new C63 AMG and IS-F are pretty darn impressive. I have driven SMGII in the E46 M3 enough to get comfortable with it and have decent control but definitely did not fully master it (my E46 M3 was a MT, unfortunately). My M-DCT M3 is on order for May delivery.

gblansten and cowmoo, you guys are wrong here. A dual clutch system is far from an automatic. The internals of the transmission are, more or less, a real full fledged MANUAL TRANSMISSION. These internals along with the dual clutch really are the essense of the tranmission and define how it shifts and how it feels. Its software is the other absolutely key thing that will determine its feel and performance. Sure in automatic mode the M-DCT transmission will very likely be essentially, IN PRACTICE, an automatic, but also far superior to any true automatic due to the lower parasitic losses, faster and smoother shifts. All of those will contribute to improved mpg as well.

I disagree with footie (as I usually do). Your ownership and experience with VWs DSG is very valuable to this discussion but it does not make your OPINIONS irrefutable. What the heck is so bad about an automatic like transmission for day to day commuting or heavy traffic and paddles with F1 like transmission performance for sporty street/twisty driving or on the track? You are also patently wrong that all or most buyers of such a system will default to automatic mode most of the time. Sure your average badge whore/poser who never drives the M3 as it was meant to be will. However, many M5/M6 folks use the SMG manual modes almost exclusively. Footie, when will you ever learn that just becuase you do or like something a particular way that it is "right", the "only way" or the way everyone else WILL do it??? You are wrong. Furthermore like enigma said with a DCT you WILL be able to control the shifts and control the clutch - you simply do it in different ways. These are the ways:
  • The aggressiveness you are driving will control the gear changes and clutch operations
  • Your choice of modes between the various manual and automatic modes will offer fairly different levels of feel, clutching speed and smoothness as well as a myriad of other more subtle options that bridge the gap between comfort and race type behavior
  • The gas pedal action during the shift will offer some control over the shifts and clutching

GregW - I suspect M-DCT will offer a way to engage neutral as well for a bit of throttle showing off!

Let's not forget the joy you will get from your car having effectively 20 more hp and 20 more ft lb of torque. This is the real advantage of the gearing changes and the speed of the shifts compared to the 6MT. Please tell me +20/+20 is not pure joy!

In conclusion you can get your joy from pushing a pedal and rowing a gear lever or from accomplishing and focusing on other aspects of your driving.

I understand that the internals are vastly different, but the fact of the matter is that you're pushing a button to change gears, different internals or not. I'm not worried about how smooth it shifts, or that it shifts in .00000000000000001 of a second, it's the fact that a machine is doing the shifting for me is what turns me off.
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      03-06-2008, 02:12 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW-M-Mexico View Post
Well as a proud owner of a late model specially made Mercedes AMG that has the manual mode and paddle shifters and also an E92 M3 with a few improvements but is a 6MT, I can truly say that although I enjoy the flexibility of the 6MT (such as, easier to remember what gear you are in by simply putting your hand down – this is much more evident in track use – , pumping it with the clutch inn to listen to the great sound, doing the difficult heal-and-toe maneuver – if not done perfectly the auto is much, much better in positioning the car when entering curbs –), the auto in Manual mode is much more efficient, easier to drive, and, yes, FUN to use as well, just a bit different!!!
As a side bar, It would be really nice if the DCT (or AMG Speedshift for that matter) has the F430 (or even 360) function where you pull both paddle shifters back at the same time – does no matter what speed – and neutral will engage so that you can pump the throttle and listen to the music and that fabulous gurgling sound. If you hit any of the two paddle shifters, down or up, the car will automatically go into the best gear (up or down) at that speed. Amazing transmission!! Maybe the CLS!!!!!
I think you can take the shifter an move it to neutral while in motion by moving the lever to the left (see avatar) and then put it back into gear by moving it to the right again. Not the same method as the Ferrari, but the same overall effect.
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      03-06-2008, 03:47 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowmoo32 View Post
DSG, DCT, SMG...blah blah blah, it's still an auto. Sure, it's not a standard automatic transmission, but you still have no control over the clutch. Yes, it makes sense on the track, and I would love to have a sequential transmission on the track, but it's still not a MT and you're not as connected to the car as you could be.


The difference between an auto and manual is the control the driver retains. In a manual the engine is fully locked to the rear wheels when the car is in gear and the car doesn't change gears on its own. The driver controls the changes.

By that definition DCT is a manual no different than a 6mt.

BTW: you do have control over clutch engagement for anything you should be doing as a driver.

Please explain how shifting gears with a lever and two peddals is "connecting you to the car"? You are just doing extra work to acomplish the same thing less effectivly. (make the car to change gears)
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      03-06-2008, 03:50 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
gblansten,

Please listen to me as someone who has lived both with a Dual Clutch GTI and a manual version of the same car. The DSG GTI also has paddles just like the IS350 and the M3 will have and to be perfectly honest with you mate you will take that test drive in the new M3 DCT and will be blown away with the system, I was with the DSG Golf when I drove it and placed the order that day. But my time with the car went like this, for the first month or so I marvelled at the speed of the change and used manual almost exclusively but as time progressed with the ownership I increasingly started to use the auto modes, mostly like you had said, I using it in heavy traffic and stop, start driving but this increased to almost exclusively using auto mode.

The problems is that off the race track paddles become a nonsense, something which gets in the way of driving the car in daily life, you will find that because they are connected to the wheel that you can't change easily at roundabouts or 90 degree corners. You will forget you are in manual mode, be it because you are watch the traffic or talking to your passengers and find yourself in the wrong gear for that next corner. DSG and in doubt DCT are so good in auto modes that manual isn't really any better and in most cases it won't actually be as good so why use it. That is what I ended up realising, that it's auto mode is all you will ever need and sadly that was not what I was after.

If you can live with the knowledge that you will almost exclusively end up using it as a true automatic and only occasionally want to use the paddles then by all means go for it, but if not then think long and hard about your decision.

Big thanks. That is precisely what I worry about happening. I don't really want an auto and the problems you noticed are the ones that happen in the IS. I don't think faster shifts would change some of those issues.
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      03-06-2008, 04:02 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowmoo32 View Post
DSG, DCT, SMG...blah blah blah, it's still an auto. Sure, it's not a standard automatic transmission, but you still have no control over the clutch. Yes, it makes sense on the track, and I would love to have a sequential transmission on the track, but it's still not a MT and you're not as connected to the car as you could be. I sit in stop and go traffic every now and then, and the 3rd pedal sucks sometimes, but those times are few and far between. I couldn't justify paying more for a piece of technology that shifts for me just to save a few hundredths of a second when shifting.

Here's something to think about: Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the biggest difference between steptronic and DCT is that DCT shifts faster. Granted, one's an auto and one has auto clutches, but that doesn't change the fact that all you're doing is pressing a button to change gears.
And, that Steptronic has a power robbing torque convertor. But, I do agree with the essence of what you are posting.
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      03-06-2008, 04:15 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post

Please explain how shifting gears with a lever and two peddals is "connecting you to the car"? You are just doing extra work to acomplish the same thing less effectivly. (make the car to change gears)
Oh, I don't know....how about slipping the clutch on a hill to make 1st gear a little smoother? Or any other time you need to control the clutch engagement for a smoother ride? I'm sure DCT will be better than SMG, but I can't count the number of time's I've read of people saying how jerky SMG is in sport mode and in auto mode and how it has trouble engaging under light throttle. All of that can be corrected with a 3rd pedal.
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      03-06-2008, 04:18 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowmoo32 View Post
Oh, I don't know....how about slipping the clutch on a hill to make 1st gear a little smoother? Or any other time you need to control the clutch engagement for a smoother ride? I'm sure DCT will be better than SMG, but I can't count the number of time's I've read of people saying how jerky SMG is in sport mode and in auto mode and how it has trouble engaging under light throttle. All of that can be corrected with a 3rd pedal.
So how smooth were you when you first drove a manual?

I can do everything you just described in my E46 smg car. The thing I love about SMG is it frees up my left foot to use the brakes.
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      03-06-2008, 04:29 PM   #32
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I too have always driven manuals. But i am considering DCT. I didn't like the SMG.... In city driving like mine it can get tough driving an M3. The clucth is must stiffer that non M BMW's.... Not sure if i will like it but.....
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      03-06-2008, 04:44 PM   #33
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As someone who has not driven an SMG/DCT car, can someone please answer this question.

In traffic I sometimes use 1st gear to accelerate to around 60-70kph at around 8,000rpm then let the car coast (to avoid losing my license) and select 4th @ 60kph.

Is this fairly easy to do using an SMG? I understand you cannot skip gears in SMG/DCT. How long do you think DCT will take to go from 1st to 4th rapidly?
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      03-06-2008, 04:55 PM   #34
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^^^^

Yes you can. At least with SMG
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      03-06-2008, 05:15 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gblansten View Post
Big thanks. That is precisely what I worry about happening. I don't really want an auto and the problems you noticed are the ones that happen in the IS. I don't think faster shifts would change some of those issues.

I am not here to sway people away from DCT it is more a case of providing an opinion from experience of such a system. If you are in doubt that you will enjoy it because you have a problem with the interaction experience from using paddles then truth me the system isn't for you. And this goes for everyone, not just gblansten.

Swamp and some of the other feel I have a downer on the technology but that is clearly not the case. The technology is miles better than any so-called proper automatic gearbox or any other non-dual clutch semi-auto. But the bottom line is the it's so seamless with it's changes that you end up using it more and more often in full auto mode, in this it differs completely when SMG, it's auto modes are a compromise compared to a proper automatic and most people I have spoke to don't find these modes accomplished enough to be regarded an alternative to using it in manual mode. If DCT is as good as I believe it will be in auto mode then most people will end up using these modes exclusively and only really using the manual modes on the track or very occasionally.

Like I already said before which swamp must have missed, if you feel that you can accept this and don't crave the interaction you get from a true manual then be all means pick the DCT and enjoy, otherwise look else where.
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      03-06-2008, 05:17 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzStriker View Post
How long do you think DCT will take to go from 1st to 4th rapidly?

As long as it takes your right hand to flick the up paddles three times. The system is really that quick.
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      03-06-2008, 05:35 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Let's not forget the joy you will get from your car having effectively 20 more hp and 20 more ft lb of torque. This is the real advantage of the gearing changes and the speed of the shifts compared to the 6MT. Please tell me +20/+20 is not pure joy!
great point.

I have a S2000 with my shorter gears and it feels about 10% quicker (who knows maybe 6% quicker or whatever) but I can feel the difference and it's not nothing.

The problem with my S2000 is that with the gears it's still the same 6-MT so doing 80 MPH I'm at close to 5000 RPMs. But the M3 tranny effectivly gives you the benifit of shorter 1-6 but then gives you an extra gear so you can have the best of both (gearing and lower rpms on the HW).

Now, I do not know, probably the M Double-clutch Transmission is LESS FUN than the MT version, but probably is quicker and much easier to get a good launch.

Also, I drove a GTI (test drive) with the DSG, that only is a 6-speed but the great thing (at least if you had it in auto-mode) you could be on the HW doing 60 (or whatever) in 6th gear but put your foot into it and it would jump down to 2nd or 3rd gear and be right at the power peak as fast as the engine could get there. It really can make a beast out of a AT (type car) where you would be hard pressed with a MT shift down the gear that would put you at the power peak. I mean say you have a 6-MT and you are on the HW and you are doing 60 mph and you want to accelerate as fast as possible, you are not going to shift down to 2nd or 3rd gear (no way) too chancy you can't figure where you will be on the revs so you shift to 5th or maybe 4th and you're only at 5000 rpm (long way to the power peak).

Another thing at least the VW was great at shifting down like in an instant. Many AT cars I have driven shift at redline OK (I mean shift up fine) but when you want a downshift sometimes there is a half second pause while it figures out what to do and does it, at leas the GTI the downshifts were almost as quick as the up shifts (it seemed) and still very smooth.

I plan to keep my S2000 so I will have a MT car to fall back on for the fun fix, but if the M Double-clutch Transmission turns out as good as I think it will be very fun all the same.

I am a little worried about the new-ness of the tranny as opposed to a manual which cave men are used to driving probably the MT is less of a problem waiting to happen.
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      03-06-2008, 06:01 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skierman64 View Post
I think you can take the shifter an move it to neutral while in motion by moving the lever to the left (see avatar) and then put it back into gear by moving it to the right again. Not the same method as the Ferrari, but the same overall effect.
Haven´t tried this, maybe it does work!!!!
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      03-06-2008, 06:04 PM   #39
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6MT

M-DCT

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      03-06-2008, 06:06 PM   #40
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6MT

M-DCT

hahahaha
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      03-06-2008, 06:07 PM   #41
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All in good fun. Can't go wrong with either!
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      03-06-2008, 06:12 PM   #42
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All in good fun. Can't go wrong with either!
It wasn't a sarcastic laugh I really was laughing
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      03-06-2008, 06:12 PM   #43
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All in good fun. Can't go wrong with either!


I like to shift, think it's fun especially with this 8400 rpms to play with. I don't think I'd like a car that's got gobs of TQ everywhere you could just mash the gas. So I think the M3 is great either, probably the double-clutch Transmission would be a little more dull (I mean less work/fun) quicker but less involving.
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      03-06-2008, 06:17 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K3N R3D View Post
It wasn't a sarcastic laugh I really was laughing
Those crack me up. It looks like the M-DCT one is holding on for dear life en route to a sub 4 sec 0-60 or something. I guess not though if he has to correct that much with the steering can't be getting too much traction.
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