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      04-27-2008, 10:13 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Unfortunately, politics is all about compromise, especially at the presidential level. The reality is that only one of the major party presidential candidates will win the election. Given this reality and the winner take all nature of most state electoral rules, voting for a third party candidate has the effect of voting for the major party candidate you agree with the least.
In every election since 1988 (inclusive) I have given in to that compromise. This year, if Chuck Baldwin is a better match for my ideals, he will have my vote.
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      04-27-2008, 10:16 PM   #24
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According to this, scotty's vote will go to Dems.
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      04-28-2008, 06:59 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
In every election since 1988 (inclusive) I have given in to that compromise. This year, if Chuck Baldwin is a better match for my ideals, he will have my vote.
Then understand that you will be voting for either Obama or Clinton.
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      04-28-2008, 10:25 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Then understand that you will be voting for either Obama or Clinton.
A vote for Chuck Baldwin would be a vote for Chuck Baldwin.
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      04-28-2008, 11:19 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
A vote for Chuck Baldwin would be a vote for Chuck Baldwin.
Notional election results:

Obama: 515

McCain: 512

Baldwin: 4


Who did the votes for Baldwin help?

Not Baldwin because he cannot win, so who is left?
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      04-28-2008, 12:38 PM   #28
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There are 538 electoral votes in total. It takes 270 to win a majority.

Obama: 267
McCain: 267
Baldwin: 4

Obama: 266
McCain: 268
Baldwin: 4

If a vote for Chuck Baldwin were a vote for Obama, then in these ^^ scenarios, Obama would win.

Obama: 265
McCain: 269
Baldwin: 4

And in this ^^ one Obama and McCain would tie.

Clearly, a vote for Chuck Baldwin is a vote for Chuck Baldwin.
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      04-28-2008, 01:34 PM   #29
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I was not referring to electoral college votes. Mr. Baldwin has a zero chance of winning any electoral votes.

I was referring to a notional popular vote in a contest where electors are at stake.
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      04-28-2008, 02:19 PM   #30
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It's a pleasure to see a die-hard GOP soldier and religious-right Huckabee ranger panicking about Obama...
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      04-28-2008, 02:20 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
I was not referring to electoral college votes. Mr. Baldwin has a zero chance of winning any electoral votes.

I was referring to a notional popular vote in a contest where electors are at stake.
Popular vote.

Obama: 60,000,000
McCain: 60,000,000
Baldwin: 2,000,000

Obama: 59,500,000
McCain: 60,500,000
Baldwin: 2,000,000

If a vote for Chuck Baldwin were a vote for Obama, then in these ^^ scenarios, Obama would win the popular vote.

Obama: 59,000,000
McCain: 61,000,000
Baldwin: 2,000,000

And in this ^^ one Obama and McCain would tie in the popular vote.

Clearly, a vote for Chuck Baldwin is a vote for Chuck Baldwin, not for Barack Obama.
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      04-28-2008, 02:47 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
Popular vote.

Obama: 60,000,000
McCain: 60,000,000
Baldwin: 2,000,000

Obama: 59,500,000
McCain: 60,500,000
Baldwin: 2,000,000

If a vote for Chuck Baldwin were a vote for Obama, then in these ^^ scenarios, Obama would win the popular vote.

Obama: 59,000,000
McCain: 61,000,000
Baldwin: 2,000,000

And in this ^^ one Obama and McCain would tie in the popular vote.

Clearly, a vote for Chuck Baldwin is a vote for Chuck Baldwin, not for Barack Obama.
We do not have a national election for president. We have 50 state elections, where some of those states are further broken down by congressional districts, in which members of the electoral college are selected. These are winner take all contests. In a contest where only two people have a reasonable chance of winning, it becomes a zero sum game. I need to win more votes than my opponent and it doesn't matter if I beat him by one vote or a hundred thousand votes. If I lose a vote to a fringe candidate, that is one less vote my opponent has to get to defeat me.

The best any center/right fringe party candidate can do is make it more difficult for the center/right main party candidate to win. Just as Nader took center/left votes from Al Gore in 2000.

It is your vote, do with it what you will but if you live in a contested state you need to be aware that every vote the less objectionable major party candidate does not get, the easier it will be for the more objectionable candidate to win in your state.
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      04-28-2008, 03:20 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
We do not have a national election for president. We have 50 state elections, where some of those states are further broken down by congressional districts, in which members of the electoral college are selected. These are winner take all contests. In a contest where only two people have a reasonable chance of winning, it becomes a zero sum game. I need to win more votes than my opponent and it doesn't matter if I beat him by one vote or a hundred thousand votes. If I lose a vote to a fringe candidate, that is one less vote my opponent has to get to defeat me.

The best any center/right fringe party candidate can do is make it more difficult for the center/right main party candidate to win. Just as Nader took center/left votes from Al Gore in 2000.

It is your vote, do with it what you will but if you live in a contested state you need to be aware that every vote the less objectionable major party candidate does not get, the easier it will be for the more objectionable candidate to win in your state.
I understand the concept. I dispute the claim that a vote for Chuck Baldwin is a vote for Barack Obama.

First, if we assume that the votes for Chuck Baldwin come from John McCain, then let's look at the numbers:
10 votes for McCain
10 votes for Obama
In the previous scenario, the vote was equal. In the next, there is a one vote spread. Voters leave McCain to vote for Baldwin.
9 votes for McCain
10 votes for Obama
1 vote for Baldwin
In the last scenario, there is a two point spread. Voters leave McCain to vote for Obama.
9 votes for McCain
11 votes for Obama
You see, a vote for Chuck Baldwin is not a vote for Barack Obama. In the worst scenario it would in effect be half a vote for Obama, but I reject that characterization.

You may be able to make a case that a vote for Baldwin is a vote that could have added to McCain's numbers. But that would be overgeneralizing.
  • Some of the Baldwin vote will come from voters who just will not vote for either the GOP or the DNC candidates.
  • Some of the Baldwin vote will come from voters who are otherwise sidelined (perhaps I am in that category).
  • Some of the Baldwin vote will come from those who just wouldn't vote for McCain and would vote for Obama if there weren't a third party alternative such as Chuck Baldwin or Ralph Nader.
  • Still others who typically voted Republican or Democrat just can't do it anymore and want to grow a third party regardless of the outcome of any specific election.
  • Some people who generally take no interest in voting will be motivated to vote for Chuck Baldwin because they like him.
  • Any of these scenarios could include protest votes.
It is not a zero sum game and to generalize that a vote for Chuck Baldwin is a vote for Barack Obama is ignoring much.
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      04-28-2008, 03:41 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
I understand the concept. I dispute the claim that a vote for Chuck Baldwin is a vote for Barack Obama.

First, if we assume that the votes for Chuck Baldwin come from John McCain, then let's look at the numbers:
10 votes for McCain
10 votes for Obama
Voters leave McCain to vote for Baldwin.
9 votes for McCain
10 votes for Obama
1 vote for Baldwin
....

You may be able to make a case that a vote for Baldwin is a vote that could have added to McCain's numbers. But that would be overgeneralizing.
...
[*]Any of these scenarios could include protest votes.[/list]It is not a zero sum game and to generalize that a vote for Chuck Baldwin is a vote for Barack Obama is ignoring much.
Of course I am overgeneralizing and I would have to say that 99.9% of the time a vote for a fringe party candidate is a harmless waste of time. I have no fear that the Constitution Party is going to draw a significant number of votes in any contest to have a measurable effect. However, there are cases were candidates with no realistic change of winning (Perot, Nader, etc...) have garnered enough votes to skew an election in a manner that most of those who voted for that candidate would regret.

Bottom line: If I were a leftist who in Florida in 2000 and wanted to stick it to the Democrats by voting for Nader, I would be pissed at myself for helping put W in office.
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      04-28-2008, 03:59 PM   #35
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Life is full of regrets.
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      04-28-2008, 04:11 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
Life is full of regrets.
You are a better man than I.

There is no way I would drag my butt to the polling station to pull the lever for a guy who could not win and may help the guy I least want to see win, just to feel (mistakenly) like I made a statement.
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      04-28-2008, 04:17 PM   #37
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McCain is not religious enough for some people. They want Huckster type religious fanatic.
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      04-28-2008, 04:35 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
You are a better man than I.

There is no way I would drag my butt to the polling station to pull the lever for a guy who could not win and may help the guy I least want to see win, just to feel (mistakenly) like I made a statement.
Likely there will be a lot of people who just sit this one out.
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      04-28-2008, 04:55 PM   #39
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Just call me a maverick.
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      04-28-2008, 06:12 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
Likely there will be a lot of people who just sit this one out.
And that is different than what you plan to do how?
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      04-28-2008, 06:14 PM   #41
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We will just have to agree to disagree.
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      09-01-2008, 05:41 PM   #42
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This is from before Sarah Palin was picked for the VP running mate. Perhaps McCain is showing some commitment to the pro-life cause.
Quote:
JOHN McCAIN PRO LIFE? WHAT A JOKE

By Chuck Baldwin
August 22, 2008
NewsWithViews.com

Once again, "pro-life" Christians are doing back flips to try and justify their compromise of the life issue by trying to convince everyone (including themselves) that John McCain is truly pro-life. However, these same people know in their hearts that John McCain shares no fidelity to the life issue in any significant or meaningful way. Like many in the Republican Party, McCain's commitment to life is about as deep as a mud puddle.

Dare I remind everyone that the "pro-life" GOP controlled the entire federal government from 2000 to 2006 and nothing was done to overturn Roe v. Wade or end legal abortion-on-demand? When George W. Bush took the oath of office in January of 2001, over one million innocent unborn babies were being murdered in the wombs of their mothers every year via legal abortions in this country. And when George W. Bush leaves office in January of 2009, over one million innocent unborn babies would still be murdered in the wombs of their mothers every year via legal abortions in this country. Eight years of a "pro-life" President and six years of the "pro-life" GOP in charge of the entire federal government and not one unborn baby's life has been saved. Roe v. Wade is still the law of the land, and abortion-on-demand is still legal in America.

Had John McCain and his fellow Republicans truly wanted to end legal abortion, they could have passed Congressman Ron Paul's Sanctity of Life Act. Year after year, Dr. Paul introduced this bill, and year after year, it sat and collected dust in the document room on Capitol Hill.

What would Congressman Paul's bill do? It would do two things: 1) It would define life as beginning at conception and, thus, declare the personhood of every pre-born child. 2) Under Article. III. Section. 2. of the U.S. Constitution, it would remove abortion from the jurisdiction of the Court. In practical terms, Dr. Paul's bill would overturn Roe v. Wade and end legal abortion-on-demand. So, where was John McCain? Why did he not support Ron Paul's bill and introduce a companion bill in the U.S. Senate?

How can John McCain, and his fellow Republicans in Washington, D.C., look pro-life Christians and conservatives in the eye in 2008 and expect that we take them seriously when they say that they are "pro-life"? If the GOP had truly wanted to overturn Roe v. Wade and end legal abortion-on-demand, they could have already done it. They controlled the White House, the U.S. Senate, and the House of Representatives for six long years, for goodness sake. The reason they did not do it is because they did not want to do it. They merely want to use "pro-life" rhetoric as a campaign tool to dupe gullible Christian voters every election year. And the disgusting thing about it is--it works.

The vast majority of notable "pro-life" leaders in the country are now trumpeting the candidacy of John McCain. And the best challenge they can come up with is "McCain better not pick a 'pro-choice' Vice President." Oh, shut up (to quote Jay Leno)!

John McCain openly embraces embryonic stem cell research. In 2000, he boldly said he did not favor the overturn of Roe v. Wade. John McCain was a member of the infamous "Gang of 14" senators from both parties whose purpose was to oppose pro-life, strict constructionist judges.

Speaking of judges, John McCain voted for the pro-abortion justice, Stephen Breyer, and the radical, pro-abortion, ACLU attorney, Ruth Bader Ginsburg. So much for the argument that we need John McCain for the sake of appointing conservative justices to the Supreme Court. For that matter, Republican appointments dominated the Court that gave us Roe v. Wade and the one that later gave us Doe v. Bolton. Proving, once again, that the Republican Party, as a whole, has no real commitment to the life issue.

John McCain also gave us McCain-Feingold. This is the law that keeps pro-life or pro-Second Amendment organizations from broadcasting ads that mention a candidate by name 30 days before a primary election or 60 days before a general election. This proves that John McCain believes neither in the right to life nor the right to keep and bear arms. (This is one reason why the Gun Owners of America gives McCain a grade of F.)

In a debate with George W. Bush in May of 2000, John McCain attacked Bush's support for the pro-life plank in the Republican Party. Still today, John McCain believes that babies who are conceived via rape or incest should be murdered. I remind readers, however, that there are no "exceptions" in the womb, only babies.

If all of the above is not enough, as a senator, John McCain has repeatedly voted to fund pro-abortion providers such as Planned Parenthood with federal tax dollars. In fact, McCain has voted to use federal tax dollars to support abortion providers at home and overseas. Yes, this "pro-life" senator (along with "pro-life" President, George W. Bush) has significantly increased federal spending for abortion providers to levels eclipsing even the appropriations authorized by President Bill Clinton and his fellow Democrats.

John McCain also supports the United Nations, which not only works to strip the United States of its independence and sovereignty, and banish our right to keep and bear arms, but is also the most radical, pro-abortion organization in the entire world. More babies have been aborted around the world under the auspices of the U.N. than any other single entity.

Tell me again, Mr. Christian Leader, how "pro-life" John McCain is. What a joke!

*If you enjoyed this column and want to help me distribute these editorial opinions to an ever-growing audience, donations may now be made by credit card, check, or Money Order. Use this link.

*Disclaimer: I am currently a candidate for President of the United States on the Constitution Party ticket. Click here for my official campaign web site.

2008 Chuck Baldwin - All Rights Reserved
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      09-01-2008, 08:31 PM   #43
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To OP:

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
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      09-07-2008, 12:26 AM   #44
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Description of a Baldwin Administration


Jerome Corsi endorses Chuck Baldwin for President!
[u2b]GAA_ffk9pYA&NR[/u2b]

Jerome Corsi on Larry King Live
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