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      03-08-2008, 04:43 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by BMW-M-Mexico View Post
C63, although slightly heavier, has much, much more torque (443 lbs/ft vs. 295) and weighs in at 1,730 kg vs. 1,655 kg. Its also coupled to a GREAT auto 7 speed AMG Speed-shift transmission made internally by Mercedes-AMG that is somewhat similar than the M-DKG. The C63 is faster on straights, 30 to 100, 100 to 150 period. Curbs and general performance, well, that is another story. If anyone can make the E92 M3 faster in any way than the C63 AMG, then more power to you and let us know how that is done.
sportAUTO has the M3 faster to 0-60 and 0-100 than the C63

the C63 weighs 4040 lbs
M3 3570, almost 500 lbs difference...

the AMG tranny has absolutely nothing in common with the DCT, other than the no. of gears...
one is a mechanical gear box with clutch(es)
the other an auto with torque convertor
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      03-09-2008, 02:04 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzStriker View Post
We must be bad drivers in Oz.

Wheels Magazine got 5.1

Motor Magazine got 5.0 then 5.3 in the latest issue!

5.3, isn't that what the 335i stock is getting according to bmw.
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      03-09-2008, 04:54 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by inmotion View Post
the performance of the M3 is definitely nothing to scoff at, but when compared to the likes of the GTR, it does fall behind a little especially with a similar msrp. That's why it would be tough, imo, that the dealers would be able to charge a premium or markup with the new M3s - the competition's really upped the standards.
+1. The E46 M3, like someone above said, was the king when it was out. The new M3 doesn't do anything new or better than any of its competition. Comparing it vs the GTR is sad, because the M3 is a inferior car. Call it ugly, but the M3 does nothing better. The M3 hasn't moved the game ahead of its competitors like it did with the 1st gen M3 and the E46 M3. Also, the E46 M3 had performance way superior to my E46 330i. But the 335 (esp with easy mods) isn't that far off the new M3. Oh, and BTW, before I get bashed for saying I can't afford a M3, look at old threads, there's our Carrera S sitting in it.
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      03-09-2008, 06:01 AM   #48
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If you look at the times provide in the other thread showing all the times of not only the M3 but other cars you will see that on average the time of the M3 is closer to 4.5~4.6s (adjusted 0.1s for the 0-100km/h) from most of the tests. To expect the M3 DCT to dip into the sub 4s bracket would be asking a lot.

And before anyone highlights that fact that in a few US tests the M3 has posted times of 4.1~4.3s, look at where these tests are being conducted. I you want to brag about your M3 dipping into the low fours then you have to be talking about drag strips with very sticky surfaces, these bear no similarity to the normal street.

At best I'm expecting the M3 DCT to knock 0.1~0.2s off the more realistic times for the M3 manual of 4.5s.
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      03-09-2008, 08:32 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by footie View Post
If you look at the times provide in the other thread showing all the times of not only the M3 but other cars you will see that on average the time of the M3 is closer to 4.5~4.6s (adjusted 0.1s for the 0-100km/h) from most of the tests. To expect the M3 DCT to dip into the sub 4s bracket would be asking a lot.

And before anyone highlights that fact that in a few US tests the M3 has posted times of 4.1~4.3s, look at where these tests are being conducted. I you want to brag about your M3 dipping into the low fours then you have to be talking about drag strips with very sticky surfaces, these bear no similarity to the normal street.

At best I'm expecting the M3 DCT to knock 0.1~0.2s off the more realistic times for the M3 manual of 4.5s.
Completely agree with you Footie. But that's my point, if you put the M3 in the best condition and scenario such as a drag strip, it might be able to pull it off. Just like when the first Z06 broke into the 11 secs 1/4 mile in stock tires and later on the 10 secs 1/4 mile with drag tires. Both of them where in drag strips.

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      03-09-2008, 09:55 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by BMW335icDDS View Post
+1. The E46 M3, like someone above said, was the king when it was out. The new M3 doesn't do anything new or better than any of its competition. Comparing it vs the GTR is sad, because the M3 is a inferior car. Call it ugly, but the M3 does nothing better. The M3 hasn't moved the game ahead of its competitors like it did with the 1st gen M3 and the E46 M3. Also, the E46 M3 had performance way superior to my E46 330i. But the 335 (esp with easy mods) isn't that far off the new M3. Oh, and BTW, before I get bashed for saying I can't afford a M3, look at old threads, there's our Carrera S sitting in it.
EVO
M3 5 stars
GTR 4.5 stars
C63 4.5 stars

inferior? only based on absolute speed, and we all know that's irrelevent on the street...there is much more to the total package than speed...at least for true car afficianados

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M3 8:05 8:05 --- 152.91 km/h -- BMW M3, 420 PS/1608 kg (sport auto 12/07) http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?vie...D=2&tID=145617
335i 8:26 8:26 --- 146.56 km/h –- BMW 335i Coupé, 306 PS/1610 kg (sport auto 10/06)
same driver, add 5 sec for the PSC's and the 335i still gets spanked...
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      03-09-2008, 10:10 AM   #51
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Sub 4 isn't likely. BMW isn't going to cannibalize its product line.
Ok, so the bet is on then?
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      03-09-2008, 02:38 PM   #52
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Completely agree with you Footie. But that's my point, if you put the M3 in the best condition and scenario such as a drag strip, it might be able to pull it off.
Right gbb, that was the point footie. The M-DCT equipped car will never regularly or on average be pulling low 4s or even sub 4s. The point was simply that under good circumstances it is highly likely. 4.1 - .2 = 3.9, the math is fairly simple. Again it will likely take the EU LC if we get a crippled one in the US.

Looks like no bets against this from anyone!
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      03-09-2008, 04:10 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtPE View Post
EVO
M3 5 stars
GTR 4.5 stars
C63 4.5 stars

inferior? only based on absolute speed, and we all know that's irrelevent on the street...there is much more to the total package than speed...at least for true car afficianados

Ring
M3 8:05 8:05 --- 152.91 km/h -- BMW M3, 420 PS/1608 kg (sport auto 12/07) http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?vie...D=2&tID=145617
335i 8:26 8:26 --- 146.56 km/h –- BMW 335i Coupé, 306 PS/1610 kg (sport auto 10/06)
same driver, add 5 sec for the PSC's and the 335i still gets spanked...
Well, the comparisons between the M3 and GTR thus far have been a clean sweep for the GTR. And since you like numbers, look at the track numbers between the GTR and the M3, and look at the 0-60, 0-100 numbers for the GTR vs M3. The M3 gets absolutely stomped on. Thats a fact. Also, it doesn't out perform or do anything better than any of its competitors. The facts you stated agree with what I said. Thats why the M3 is a huge disappointment, its not king of the road like it was in years past.

Also, I said the 335 with cheap mods come close. The 335 you listed is stock, not one with a chip. The Evo rating of the M3 was before the GTR was out, so of course it looks better before you drive the GTR. You see the auto car video? Chris bought the M3, and afterwards was very disappointed after driving the GTR and the GT3.
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      03-09-2008, 06:33 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by BMW335icDDS View Post
Well, the comparisons between the M3 and GTR thus far have been a clean sweep for the GTR. And since you like numbers, look at the track numbers between the GTR and the M3, and look at the 0-60, 0-100 numbers for the GTR vs M3. The M3 gets absolutely stomped on. Thats a fact. Also, it doesn't out perform or do anything better than any of its competitors. The facts you stated agree with what I said. Thats why the M3 is a huge disappointment, its not king of the road like it was in years past.

Also, I said the 335 with cheap mods come close. The 335 you listed is stock, not one with a chip. The Evo rating of the M3 was before the GTR was out, so of course it looks better before you drive the GTR. You see the auto car video? Chris bought the M3, and afterwards was very disappointed after driving the GTR and the GT3.
it was never 'king of the road', you're confusing it with camaro's and corvettes and the like...
and I'm not sutre what that even means...ego issues? you feel the need to 'dominate' the highways and byeways?

it's only a mans insecurity that intertwines his 'worth' with the speed of a car...sounds like you've been 'stomped on'?

again, for the record, speed is NOT the absolute determinate of a cars quality or worth...

the GTR may be faster, but the M3 is better, and they are both leagues above the 335i...get real...
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      03-09-2008, 07:30 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by ArtPE View Post
it was never 'king of the road', you're confusing it with camaro's and corvettes and the like...
and I'm not sutre what that even means...ego issues? you feel the need to 'dominate' the highways and byeways?

it's only a mans insecurity that intertwines his 'worth' with the speed of a car...sounds like you've been 'stomped on'?

again, for the record, speed is NOT the absolute determinate of a cars quality or worth...

the GTR may be faster, but the M3 is better, and they are both leagues above the 335i...get real...

I don't know if i would necessarilly say that either one is better than the other (M3 vs GTR). Because they're two completely different cars with different missions and execution. They're both definitely excellent cars on what they do and what they represent.

Last edited by gbb357; 03-09-2008 at 08:33 PM.
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      03-09-2008, 08:07 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by ArtPE View Post
sportAUTO has the M3 faster to 0-60 and 0-100 than the C63

the C63 weighs 4040 lbs
M3 3570, almost 500 lbs difference...

the AMG tranny has absolutely nothing in common with the DCT, other than the no. of gears...
one is a mechanical gear box with clutch(es)
the other an auto with torque convertor
OK, if that is what they say, then my E92 M3 is faster!!! What can I say, must be that mine has a problem since the one I come up agaist beats me all the time.
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      03-09-2008, 08:11 PM   #57
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Okay, $100 bucks... and when the DCT comes out and the first magazine to officially post under 4 seconds then I'll fork up the dough. But I think it might be a really long time.
Just saw an advertisement on Road & Track where they had the E92 M3 Sedan, the advertisement literally stated 414 bhp, 8,400 RPM Red Line and 0 to 60 (not 62) in 4.8 seconds. This MUST be a huge mistake, how can they do that!!!!! The same R&T magazine has their own test albeit of the M3 Coupe at 0 to 60 at 4.1 seconds!!!
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      03-09-2008, 09:05 PM   #58
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Advertisement of 4.8 seconds 0 – 60 mph???? That guy ought to get fired too!! Anyway, I find both a bit difficult to believe (that is, 0 – 60 in 4.1 and 1 to 60 in 4.8). The official web site and other official web sites I’ve seen post a 4.8 time from 0 – 62 mph (0 to 100 kph). Most “independent” reviews put it at 0 - 62 mph at around 4.7 sometimes 4.6, so it seems plausible to post a 0 – 60 in a bit less than that, but 4.1 does seem a bit of a stretch even if it is 0 to 60 (and not 62)!! Whatever it is, the car is fast, but I think it could be a bit faster. Nothing I can’t fix with a few modifications though. LOL!!
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      03-09-2008, 09:13 PM   #59
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hahahaha - LOL...

I'm sure there will be a reflash of sorts that'll bring the number down. But for stock... it should be a bit faster. Especially considering the e46 M3 was advertised as 4.8 on the BMW site. What ever... it's a headache just thinking about it. The car is fast... no question about it.
Yep, should be faster stock!!! I hate that the C63 is faster and probably the 911 S as well!!!
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      03-09-2008, 09:16 PM   #60
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BTW... I really like the M3 sedan. I checked one out today and it was parked next to a coupe and looked much meaner. The front is wider... and the rear is sweet. It's very brute. All the AW M3s look weak... but I did check out a Jet Black M3 coupe and in pictures I thought it was the wrong colour... but in person it is breath-taking. I think the car actually needs a darker colour and the e90 looks best in a medium colour. AW and Silverstone II unfortunately takes away some of the shape and mutes it a bit. I do not like sedans... but this one is sick looking. Thank goodness I didn't buy or order yet. I'm going to get the sedan... done deal.
Wow, funny, I thought exactly the opposite!! That is, the darker colors hide the CF roof and some of the nice features such as the hood intakes, side intakes etc… Now black, I agree, looks fabulous!!!
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      03-09-2008, 09:52 PM   #61
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Black was truly break-taking and I loath black cars... seriously... I was shocked at how good it looks.

Maybe when I get the M3 M DKG it will be black!!!
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      03-10-2008, 12:40 AM   #62
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Okay, $100 bucks... and when the DCT comes out and the first magazine to officially post under 4 seconds then I'll fork up the dough. But I think it might be a really long time.
Obviously, you can call your own shots, but this is a bet that you can't possibly win, and definitely can lose. If you don't have a deadline, then Swamp can never lose.

None of my business, but since you've been goaded here and I kind of enjoy annoying Swamp, why don't you set it up so that if Swamp can't provide a published report showing 0-60 in the 3s by, say, July 1, he gets to fork over the money. Or, DCT plus 90 days, or whatever.

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      03-10-2008, 01:17 AM   #63
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Obviously, you can call your own shots, but this is a bet that you can't possibly win, and definitely can lose. If you don't have a deadline, then Swamp can never lose.

None of my business, but since you've been goaded here and I kind of enjoy annoying Swamp, why don't you set it up so that if Swamp can't provide a published report showing 0-60 in the 3s by, say, July 1, he gets to fork over the money. Or, DCT plus 90 days, or whatever.

Bruce
Wow, sure thing, I'll take that bet as well!!! July 1 as the limit? $100? Done!! Has to be an ndependent reputable publication (i.e., European Car, Road & Track, Motor Trend, etc…).
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      03-10-2008, 01:22 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW335icDDS View Post
Well, the comparisons between the M3 and GTR thus far have been a clean sweep for the GTR. And since you like numbers, look at the track numbers between the GTR and the M3, and look at the 0-60, 0-100 numbers for the GTR vs M3. The M3 gets absolutely stomped on. Thats a fact. Also, it doesn't out perform or do anything better than any of its competitors. The facts you stated agree with what I said. Thats why the M3 is a huge disappointment, its not king of the road like it was in years past.

Also, I said the 335 with cheap mods come close. The 335 you listed is stock, not one with a chip. The Evo rating of the M3 was before the GTR was out, so of course it looks better before you drive the GTR. You see the auto car video? Chris bought the M3, and afterwards was very disappointed after driving the GTR and the GT3.

The Gtr and the gt3 are clearly not the m3's competitors. The RS4 and C63 are, which the m3 clearly dominates. And by the way, the last Skyline GTR was also faster than the E46 M3, the only difference was that it wasn't imported to the US. To call the new M3 dissapointing is absurd, it dominates its competitors and is now able to join in shoot-outs with supercars like the GT3 and GTR. Id say bravo for the M3.
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      03-10-2008, 02:43 AM   #65
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The Gtr and the gt3 are clearly not the m3's competitors. The RS4 and C63 are, which the m3 clearly dominates. And by the way, the last Skyline GTR was also faster than the E46 M3, the only difference was that it wasn't imported to the US. To call the new M3 dissapointing is absurd, it dominates its competitors and is now able to join in shoot-outs with supercars like the GT3 and GTR. Id say bravo for the M3.
Yes, thats one of the reasons why the M3 of last gen was so good, because it didn't have to face the Skyline then. But now it does. The GTR IS competition, as TONS of people have cross showed the two. Go to any of the E90 posts and you will see members who have gone from 335 to GTR, and some M3 guys went to the GTR as well. The M in the M3 is supposed to stand for motorsport, so it should be compared to all great racing cars. But really now, as BMW has stated they intent to sell a whooping 100k M3's in the world a year, and as they are advertising it like a mass production vehicle, the M in the M3 really now stands for marketing.
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      03-10-2008, 07:11 AM   #66
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Okay, $100 bucks... and when the DCT comes out and the first magazine to officially post under 4 seconds then I'll fork up the dough. But I think it might be a really long time.
Nice to see you man up.

I'd say that a good way to handle it is come up with a list of approved magazines. There's probably a half dozen US plus a half dozen european mags that are relevant here. Maybe a few more. A good place to start might be the master M3 review thread.

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Just saw an advertisement on Road & Track where they had the E92 M3 Sedan, the advertisement literally stated 414 bhp, 8,400 RPM Red Line and 0 to 60 (not 62) in 4.8 seconds. This MUST be a huge mistake, how can they do that!!!!! The same R&T magazine has their own test albeit of the M3 Coupe at 0 to 60 at 4.1 seconds!!!
Well there is a simple explanation. The 4.8 time is the official from BMW, while the mag's observed test time was 4.1. Its very common (the norm in fact) for tests to outdo official figures. For there to be a .7 sec difference is not very common, but BMW's time is known to be conservative (just like their original E46 time was, which was later revised).

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I think in the end it'll be 4.6... maybe 4.5. As for 4.1... hmmmm something smells fishy. Maybe a very embarrassing typo and I'm sure the editor on that piece has been fired.
Its important to keep in mind that two sources have reported 4.1 now. The other was a coupe, but I've forgoten which magazine it was (someone will throw out the name I'm sure).
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