BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > M3 vs....
 
PYSPEED
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      02-16-2008, 05:41 PM   #1
rstringer
Enlisted Member
 
Drives: audi
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: vancouver

Posts: 43
iTrader: (0)

M3 vs 335 Steering

I understand that this might launch another juvenile flame war, but nevertheless I need to ask the question.

Most M3 reviews confirm that the steering has lost some precision and the connectivity to the road compared to the previous model has been somewhat reduced. When I test drove the 335 with a sport suspension I felt that steering was heavy though. Can someone , preferrably someone who has test driven both , comment about thow the steering compares in both cars?

Cheers,
Rob
rstringer is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-18-2008, 02:12 AM   #2
rstringer
Enlisted Member
 
Drives: audi
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: vancouver

Posts: 43
iTrader: (0)

Well I guess noone dares to respond due to a potential ugly dispute unfolding.

I was able to find some info from caranddriver here is a little excerpt for those who are interested:

"At 100-plus-mph speeds on the highway, the steering borders on scary light in its regular setting. It's certainly accurate, however, and the sport setting clears up much of the lightness problem, but it still has a larger-than-we'd-like dead spot on-center and could use even more heft, in our opinion. Worse is that the level of tingly, tactile feedback coming through that thick-rimmed wheel seems to be dialed back a bit compared with the last M3 or even a current-gen 328i or 335i."

Rob
rstringer is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-18-2008, 11:31 AM   #3
malter2.0
Banned
 
Drives: em-funf
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: SF Bay Area

Posts: 908
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
heh...this looks like 2001 all over again, when owners complained of E46 3-series overly assisted steering. in this case opposite.

it could be true...
malter2.0 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      02-18-2008, 02:21 PM   #4
rstringer
Enlisted Member
 
Drives: audi
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: vancouver

Posts: 43
iTrader: (0)

What really gets me is that I don't understand why they did that. We all agree that those bmw engineers are brilliant therefore I like to believe that this was by design. But since a heavier steering is more desirable in such a sporty and powerful car I can't understand their reasoning.

I wish some bmw engineers would frequent thes sites and shed some light on these issues .I think most of us would love toknow what goes on in their heads.
rstringer is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-18-2008, 03:09 PM   #5
!Xoible
Banned
 
Drives: ....
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: .

Posts: 46,037
iTrader: (4)

Garage List
2008 M3  [3.50]
2007 335i  [4.50]
2008 528i  [4.00]
2006 Infiniti - G35 ...  [4.00]
interesting! i hope it's at least like 335's steering. that's kind of a disappointment IMO
!Xoible is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-02-2008, 12:30 AM   #6
Tee-Tom
Private First Class
 
Drives: BMW M3 E93
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Lagos Nigeria

Posts: 109
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rstringer View Post
I understand that this might launch another juvenile flame war, but nevertheless I need to ask the question.

Most M3 reviews confirm that the steering has lost some precision and the connectivity to the road compared to the previous model has been somewhat reduced. When I test drove the 335 with a sport suspension I felt that steering was heavy though. Can someone , preferrably someone who has test driven both , comment about thow the steering compares in both cars?

Cheers,
Rob
This issue, I believe, can be blamed on the Servotronic system which has never been universally loved. I believe BMW should make it an option.
As for the 335i steerring, I love it heaviness and all. I wouldn't want it any other way.
Now, an M3 with a 335i steering... that would be it!!
Tee-Tom is offline   Nigeria
0
Reply With Quote
      03-02-2008, 11:37 PM   #7
JEllis
Brigadier General
 
JEllis's Avatar
 
Drives: E36 M3, E92 M3
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SD CA/Yuma

Posts: 4,361
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rstringer View Post
I understand that this might launch another juvenile flame war, but nevertheless I need to ask the question.

Most M3 reviews confirm that the steering has lost some precision and the connectivity to the road compared to the previous model has been somewhat reduced. When I test drove the 335 with a sport suspension I felt that steering was heavy though. Can someone , preferrably someone who has test driven both , comment about thow the steering compares in both cars?

Cheers,
Rob
Actually precision in the steering has not been noted as a problem. Its just the feedback which I think is as subjective as ride quality IMO.

Jason
__________________
http://www.m3post.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic14547_7.gif
JEllis is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      03-02-2008, 11:59 PM   #8
MrHarris
yodog
 
MrHarris's Avatar
 
Drives: '86 Corolla
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Diamond Bar, Ca

Posts: 5,027
iTrader: (5)

Garage List
2009 BMW  [5.00]
Send a message via AIM to MrHarris
The 335i's steering feels like how a BMW should. I need to test drive one of the new M3s and see how the "normal" and "sport" steering feel. I'd hope the normal isn't disappointing. Does anyone know if you can adjust the steering so that it's always in sport mode?
MrHarris is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-03-2008, 01:27 AM   #9
e36jakeo
Captain
 
Drives: 2008 M3 6 Speed MT!
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Northern CA

Posts: 624
iTrader: (0)

My understanding is that 2-door 335is (E92s) have the servo- steering and the sedans (E90s) have the traditional hydraulic. I have an 07 sedan which I think has excellent steering in feel, weighting, precision - even the wheel is a perfect diameter, thickness, and texture. Based upon ALL the negative press about the M3's steering and all the positive press about the 335i's steering you really have to wonder why they spend all the time and money re-engineering the M3's!!
__________________
Driving sideways: It's not faster, but damn it's more fun!
e36jakeo is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-03-2008, 01:36 PM   #10
swamp2
Major General
 
swamp2's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posts: 9,584
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEllis View Post
Actually precision in the steering has not been noted as a problem. Its just the feedback which I think is as subjective as ride quality IMO.

Jason
+1

What we think of as "good" from all of our history, knowledge and experience with sports cars does not mean an evolution should not occur and it does not mean that light feel = bad. Could it be the hundreds of M engineers and test drivers know slightly more than you and I or the average journalist? Could it be they feel the need to progress from what is traditional? Look I am not trying to play the role of fanboy, there is certainly cause of concern, but at the same time much of steering feel is subjective and we each need some considerable time in the car to make a conclusion.
swamp2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-03-2008, 02:55 PM   #11
par4bmw
Lieutenant
 
par4bmw's Avatar
 
Drives: 370Z & My JK Toy
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Scottsdale

Posts: 494
iTrader: (0)

Has anybody seen a direct comparison between the 335 and M3 steering?
par4bmw is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      03-03-2008, 03:13 PM   #12
Hans Delbruck
BMW & MB - friends in my garage
 
Hans Delbruck's Avatar
 
Drives: C63, 135i, 1959 BUICK
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Huntington Beach, CA

Posts: 1,285
iTrader: (0)

[quote=swamp2;2239270 much of steering feel is subjective and we each need some considerable time in the car to make a conclusion.[/QUOTE]

+1.

In my extended drive of a 335i sport sedan, I felt the steering was very accurate and predictable, but still felt a tad numb and certainly heavy compared to my Evo.
__________________
2009 135i 6MT Euro Delivery 9/5/09
BMW Performance Power Kit - Exhaust - Short Shifter
Hans Delbruck is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-03-2008, 06:14 PM   #13
footie
Major General
 
footie's Avatar
 
Drives: ????????????
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: BMW M3 will get a V6TT

Posts: 7,507
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 E92 M3  [0.00]
If you read most of the reviews on the steering you will see that most of the (shall we call it) bad press regarding it centers on it on center numbness, bad for ultimate feel of the surface below you but great for bombing along at 150mph on the Autobahn where traditionally M cars felt a little nervous (not my words). The actual steering off center is as good as ever but it's this on center feel which makes placing the car a little trickier than before but like anything, familiarity breeds confidence.

Personally on the test drives I have taken I never found any problems with the setup one bit and liked the easy of parking that is now found in the new system which weighs up nicely at the speed increases.
footie is offline   No_Country
0
Reply With Quote
      03-03-2008, 06:54 PM   #14
apw2607
Major
 
Drives: 2009 X5 35d
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Posts: 1,398
iTrader: (0)

I can only compare the steering to my old E46 M3 ... but the steering felt perfectly fine ... and that was from my experiences from driving around the Nurburgring short circuit at the BMW M3 driving experience.

I recall I prefered Sport mode for the steering mode though ... thats why I ended up going for the tech package amongst other reasons ...
apw2607 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      03-03-2008, 07:36 PM   #15
swamp2
Major General
 
swamp2's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posts: 9,584
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
If you read most of the reviews on the steering you will see that most of the (shall we call it) bad press regarding it centers on it on center numbness, bad for ultimate feel of the surface below you but great for bombing along at 150mph on the Autobahn where traditionally M cars felt a little nervous (not my words). The actual steering off center is as good as ever but it's this on center feel which makes placing the car a little trickier than before but like anything, familiarity breeds confidence.

Personally on the test drives I have taken I never found any problems with the setup one bit and liked the easy of parking that is now found in the new system which weighs up nicely at the speed increases.
Good post footie, sounds right on.

By the way I think you are opening yourself up to some serious teasing with possible misinterpretation of your signature quote about manual transmissions... beware for TB on this one....
swamp2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-05-2008, 03:21 AM   #16
e36jakeo
Captain
 
Drives: 2008 M3 6 Speed MT!
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Northern CA

Posts: 624
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck View Post
+1.

In my extended drive of a 335i sport sedan, I felt the steering was very accurate and predictable, but still felt a tad numb and certainly heavy compared to my Evo.
I will say this is an unfair comparison. The Evo XIII/IV wrote the book on steering feel and precision. My E36 M3 and 335i have excellent steering feel, but the Evo's allowed you to read the road like brail.

As for variable assist steering on the M3, I guess having super light steering at parking lot speeds is needed to navigate the McDonald's drive through. Damn, I'd hate to get ANY exercise!
__________________
Driving sideways: It's not faster, but damn it's more fun!
e36jakeo is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-05-2008, 04:17 AM   #17
footie
Major General
 
footie's Avatar
 
Drives: ????????????
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: BMW M3 will get a V6TT

Posts: 7,507
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 E92 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
By the way I think you are opening yourself up to some serious teasing with possible misinterpretation of your signature quote about manual transmissions... beware for TB on this one....
It could be misinterpretation but that's half the fun.
footie is offline   No_Country
0
Reply With Quote
      03-05-2008, 12:24 PM   #18
!Xoible
Banned
 
Drives: ....
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: .

Posts: 46,037
iTrader: (4)

Garage List
2008 M3  [3.50]
2007 335i  [4.50]
2008 528i  [4.00]
2006 Infiniti - G35 ...  [4.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck View Post
+1.

In my extended drive of a 335i sport sedan, I felt the steering was very accurate and predictable, but still felt a tad numb and certainly heavy compared to my Evo.
drive a Z4M then drive ur car right after. tell me what you think
!Xoible is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-05-2008, 08:25 PM   #19
nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 1
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: 2

Posts: 469
iTrader: (0)

The M3 has lighter steering. You can feel it, and it is very noticeable. I prefer the steering on my E92 335i over the E92 M3. You really lose the feeling of being connected to the road in the M3. Dare I say, it feels almost lexus like...

But, the car is fun as hell!
nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-05-2008, 09:31 PM   #20
chicagobimmerboy
First Lieutenant
 
chicagobimmerboy's Avatar
 
Drives: Un esotico Italiano ;)
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Chicago suburbs

Posts: 363
iTrader: (0)

I hope BMW learned from all the bad feelings toward the steering, not to have servotronic steering as standard on the M3 (or any car). I'd say the next M (yes I will go the distance and discuss this already) will have a trusty ol' system like in the regular 3, lower wieght and better fuel economy/power ie direct injection.
chicagobimmerboy is offline   Italy
0
Reply With Quote
      03-06-2008, 02:56 AM   #21
e36jakeo
Captain
 
Drives: 2008 M3 6 Speed MT!
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Northern CA

Posts: 624
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrari355fi View Post
The M3 has lighter steering. You can feel it, and it is very noticeable. I prefer the steering on my E92 335i over the E92 M3. You really lose the feeling of being connected to the road in the M3. Dare I say, it feels almost lexus like...

But, the car is fun as hell!
If this is true I might just go the route of keeping my 335i for the long term and doing the mods to satisfy the M3 lover in me (LSD, suspension, intake, primarily). Steering is important and paying $20K more to have a car with WORSE steering would be a major bummer.
__________________
Driving sideways: It's not faster, but damn it's more fun!
e36jakeo is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-06-2008, 09:21 AM   #22
bruce.augenstein@comcast.
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: Subaru Legacy GT
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Manheim, PA

Posts: 1,795
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rstringer View Post
What really gets me is that I don't understand why they did that. We all agree that those bmw engineers are brilliant therefore I like to believe that this was by design. But since a heavier steering is more desirable in such a sporty and powerful car I can't understand their reasoning.

I wish some bmw engineers would frequent thes sites and shed some light on these issues .I think most of us would love toknow what goes on in their heads.
As they say, all engineering is compromise, and it's quite possible that this car is more of a track rat than the E46 was. I have yet to drive one, but sifting through the various road tests, it seems that the steering complaints in regard to street use fade away on track, and in that venue the car seems to come alive.

It's extremely difficult to design the perfect system for all extremes of use, and with the built-in penalties of size and weight that this car has (for track use), it's very possible that BMW had to go to more extensive compromising in order to get the thing to really feel perfectly at home out on the 'Ring.

Of course, I'm basically making this up, but as a perfect illustration of the concept, you have only to sample pretty much any of the Jeep offerings. On the street, the steering feels pretty vague, with built-in slop compared to pretty much anything even remotely sporty. That slop is designed in so to speak, and for serious off-road work, the steering works absolutely perfectly. When you whack a ten-inch rock ledge, the various bushings in the system have the perfect amount of give to allow the driver to retain control without having the steering wheel ripped out of his or her hands. Jeep takes their off-road reputation seriously (as well they should), and they're perfectly willing to give up some on-road tightness and precision in order to give them off-road greatness.

By the way, mentioning bushings in this topic is important, because you can't just swap steering racks and paraphernalia from one car to another and expect anything good to happen. The entire system is what needs to get breathed on when you make such a change. That would include the bushings, obviously, but also the clearances that the bushings fill, and even basic geometries may need to be tweaked.

From my point of view, this is as much about art as it is about science, and BMW certainly employs true artists in their chassis and suspension design departments.

I'm personally beginning to get a glimmer of hope about this car, despite my huge disappointment about its size and weight. The "fact" (meaning my supposition) that BMW has made some sacrifice in street feel in order to arrive at track beauty means to me that these guys are back to getting serious about the dual-purpose nature of the beast. I say

Bruce

PS - An anecdote about engineering compromise: One of the greatest facts I ever learned about the Air Force SR-71 "Blackbird", that high altitude mach 3 wonder machine (from Lockheed, I think), was that when you put enough fuel in it for takeoff and getting up into the air for an in-flight fueling rendezvous, it would sit there on the pad and leak.

Think about that. What kind of far out, state-of-the-art engineering were those guys into that meant it was OK for a plane to dribble fuel all over the place when sitting on the ground? That's another
bruce.augenstein@comcast. is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:04 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST