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      03-01-2008, 08:07 PM   #67
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I've read quite a few articles that say the 997 Turbo does not handle very well at the track. It is quite a bit slower than a GT3, which has a lot less HP and torque (although comes with sticky R compounds). The 911 Turbo is for guys who like to say "I have a 911 Turbo" and who like to punch it on the on ramp until they hit 80 MPH. GT3s are for true drivers.

THe GTR is pretty hard-core and, although its AWD and turbo power may make you want to compare it against the 911 Turbo, I think in spirit it is a lot closer to the GT3. The GT3 is supposed to ride decent with the adjustible suspension (PASM??) and probably as well as the GTR. Meanwhile it is more involving, better sounding, better looking (my opinion) and almost as fast in a straight line and probably equally fast around MOST road courses (that have lots of turns - no N'Ring) as the GTR. When you factor in the GTR's markup, the two may cost similar $$s, too.
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      03-01-2008, 08:08 PM   #68
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BTW i heard the GTR is selling for $125k street price. It is on par with 997 TT pricinhg.
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      03-01-2008, 08:19 PM   #69
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Everyone I spoke to was wanting between 10 - 20k over sticker

I think when dealers have physical stock this summer the premiums will be less, especially since its been reported in Winding Road that actual USA production will be around 500 per month vs. the 1500 per year that Nissan has stated

It makes sense that Nissan wants to create this sense of limited supply
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      03-01-2008, 08:20 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chasem3 View Post
BTW i heard the GTR is selling for $125k street price. It is on par with 997 TT pricinhg.
Yea, the markup is ridiculous, I think they are sold out for this year too...
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      03-01-2008, 09:43 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umcool911ok View Post
One thing they forgot to say is how much over
MSRP you will pay for the GT-R I know someone
over here in Nashville who paid 92,000$ U.S. for his and thats
the cheapest I have heard of so far, some are paying 100K
Our dealer was selling at sticker, i preordered one, god knows when i get it though 2nd one the dealer gets..
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      03-02-2008, 01:32 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e36jakeo View Post
I've read quite a few articles that say the 997 Turbo does not handle very well at the track. It is quite a bit slower than a GT3, which has a lot less HP and torque (although comes with sticky R compounds). The 911 Turbo is for guys who like to say "I have a 911 Turbo" and who like to punch it on the on ramp until they hit 80 MPH. GT3s are for true drivers.

THe GTR is pretty hard-core and, although its AWD and turbo power may make you want to compare it against the 911 Turbo, I think in spirit it is a lot closer to the GT3. The GT3 is supposed to ride decent with the adjustible suspension (PASM??) and probably as well as the GTR. Meanwhile it is more involving, better sounding, better looking (my opinion) and almost as fast in a straight line and probably equally fast around MOST road courses (that have lots of turns - no N'Ring) as the GTR. When you factor in the GTR's markup, the two may cost similar $$s, too.
Actually the article is right on in comparing to 997 TT. All of these cars are in the 3800 lbs range i.e. they are pigs. The GT3 and Z06 (not compared) are in the 3000 lbs range which make them proper track cars. The 997 TT has the dry sump which makes it a true enthusiast car. If I had no life and in the market for cheap hardware to demolish the BMW and Porsche guys, my choice would certainly be the Z06 mainly because I can't stand AWD cars and the Z06 can be easily modded as the Nissan. If money was an issue the Chevy is the best bang for the buck.
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      03-02-2008, 01:45 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo View Post
Actually the article is right on in comparing to 997 TT. All of these cars are in the 3800 lbs range i.e. they are pigs. The GT3 and Z06 (not compared) are in the 3000 lbs range which make them proper track cars. The 997 TT has the dry sump which makes it a true enthusiast car. If I had no life and in the market for cheap hardware to demolish the BMW and Porsche guys, my choice would certainly be the Z06 mainly because I can't stand AWD cars and the Z06 can be easily modded as the Nissan. If money was an issue the Chevy is the best bang for the buck.
I still say the 911 Turbo's suspension was not designed for the track (less so than the M3's, let alone the GTR's).

The Z06 is definitely the bang for the buck champ. I drove one at Infinion. It had well-used slicks, but other than that was stock. I ran a 1:49 (5 seconds faster than the owner of the Z06 was able to manage) on my first session ever, and there was a LOT left on the table. For comparison I run a 1:50 in my 3000 lb E36 M3 with full track suspension, 240 WHP and R-compounds. I'm pretty sure on new tires and with a bit more seat time I could turn a 1:45 or better.
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      03-02-2008, 02:39 AM   #74
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OK guys, lets not forget this is m3post.com...that means were mainly talking about M3s. A little bit of comparison of other cars is fine but this is getting a bit over board.

On the 911TT vs. GT-R: There is ample evidence that the GT-R is under-rated. If so and if Nissan delivers an SAE spec car in the US then it simply won't perform like the ones with more power. I think this is the essence of what Art has been saying. We all know the GT-R has an amazing drivetrain (AWD, traction control system, diffs, dual clutch trans, etc.) and a very advanced chassis as well. Nonetheless all cars are subject to the laws of physics and the GT-R is quite a heavy car. Only time will tell if the current huge sums over sticker that US dealers want for the car will be worth it or not.

Please take the rest of the GT-R vs. 911TT debate to PM.
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      03-02-2008, 02:58 AM   #75
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What about the GT2 guys? While the Nissan boys are making something to beat the Turbo, Porsche already came up with their newer, faster machine to beat the competition. What do you all think about the GT2 vs. GTR? Or maybe they are not in the same league since the GT2 is RWD?
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      03-02-2008, 03:28 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
OK guys, lets not forget this is m3post.com...that means were mainly talking about M3s. A little bit of comparison of other cars is fine but this is getting a bit over board.

On the 911TT vs. GT-R: There is ample evidence that the GT-R is under-rated. If so and if Nissan delivers an SAE spec car in the US then it simply won't perform like the ones with more power. I think this is the essence of what Art has been saying. We all know the GT-R has an amazing drivetrain (AWD, traction control system, diffs, dual clutch trans, etc.) and a very advanced chassis as well. Nonetheless all cars are subject to the laws of physics and the GT-R is quite a heavy car. Only time will tell if the current huge sums over sticker that US dealers want for the car will be worth it or not.

Please take the rest of the GT-R vs. 911TT debate to PM.
+1 Good call!



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      03-02-2008, 08:52 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E82tt6 View Post
Huh?

My point was, given the way you type and think, you probably don't even have a driver's licence, but assuming you do, what if the guy you're racing is a superior driver?

Incase you didn't know, a lap time has A LOT more to do with driver than car.
Which is why I wasn't concerned about beating him in an M3.
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      03-02-2008, 11:31 AM   #78
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      03-02-2008, 04:01 PM   #79
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I like the GT-R but that is one ugly muthafocker!
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      03-02-2008, 04:07 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo View Post
Actually the article is right on in comparing to 997 TT. All of these cars are in the 3800 lbs range i.e. they are pigs. The GT3 and Z06 (not compared) are in the 3000 lbs range which make them proper track cars. The 997 TT has the dry sump which makes it a true enthusiast car. If I had no life and in the market for cheap hardware to demolish the BMW and Porsche guys, my choice would certainly be the Z06 mainly because I can't stand AWD cars and the Z06 can be easily modded as the Nissan. If money was an issue the Chevy is the best bang for the buck.
If you are suggesting that the 997tt is 3800 lbs., you are 305 lbs. too heavy If you optioned it with the fabulous PCCB brakes then you could shave another 40 lbs. off. The 997tt is heavy, but it is no pig compared with any of the oher cars.
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      03-02-2008, 04:24 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
OK guys, lets not forget this is m3post.com...that means were mainly talking about M3s. A little bit of comparison of other cars is fine but this is getting a bit over board.

On the 911TT vs. GT-R: There is ample evidence that the GT-R is under-rated. If so and if Nissan delivers an SAE spec car in the US then it simply won't perform like the ones with more power. I think this is the essence of what Art has been saying. We all know the GT-R has an amazing drivetrain (AWD, traction control system, diffs, dual clutch trans, etc.) and a very advanced chassis as well. Nonetheless all cars are subject to the laws of physics and the GT-R is quite a heavy car. Only time will tell if the current huge sums over sticker that US dealers want for the car will be worth it or not.

Please take the rest of the GT-R vs. 911TT debate to PM.
The M3 at 3704lbs is no feather weight either (GTR at 3835lbs). I don't think the GTR should have any problem getting SAE spec and delivering the same performance that it has predicted. Question is, how much under-rated it really is.
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      03-02-2008, 07:17 PM   #82
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To say ALL of the GT-R tests are 'rigged' is ridiculous.

The results are in. It clearly wins in the performance categories.

Yes, it's not a "pretty German/Euro car" and it was never meant to be.

That's ok.
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      03-03-2008, 12:40 AM   #83
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The M3 at 3704lbs is no feather weight either (GTR at 3835lbs). I don't think the GTR should have any problem getting SAE spec and delivering the same performance that it has predicted. Question is, how much under-rated it really is.
You have followed the posts talking about actual weights both from magazines and customers cars right? Most were coming in quite a bit under the EU spec weight and thus this could be the case in the US as well. Perhaps the figure is for a totally loaded car with every option. I can't wait to get mine on a scale. Lastly that weight comment was more aimed at a comparison with the Porsche 911TT not the M3.
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      03-03-2008, 03:17 AM   #84
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wow.. a good comparison!
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      03-03-2008, 09:09 AM   #85
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You have followed the posts talking about actual weights both from magazines and customers cars right? Most were coming in quite a bit under the EU spec weight and thus this could be the case in the US as well. Perhaps the figure is for a totally loaded car with every option. I can't wait to get mine on a scale. Lastly that weight comment was more aimed at a comparison with the Porsche 911TT not the M3.
The BMW weight is from the BMWusa.com website, spec for unladen weight. The GTR is the one from the Carmag article. I don't have the U.S. weight spec for the GTR, so it's not quite a fair weight comparison. The M3 weight from the Carmag article is obviously lighter, so that might be a Euro spec..

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      03-03-2008, 10:31 AM   #86
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Autocar weighed an M3 at it's full road test, something they always do now and it weighed in at 1635kgs (3597Lbs). I don't know it the car was loaded with options, I believe there was some (19"alloys, EDC, arm-rest, front park sensors) but not the full list of options or even near it.

I haven't heard whether they test the car with driver and fuel or not, maybe Steved might know which, being a friend of Chris at Autocar.
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      03-03-2008, 11:22 AM   #87
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Autocar weighed an M3 at it's full road test, something they always do now and it weighed in at 1635kgs (3597Lbs). I don't know it the car was loaded with options, I believe there was some (19"alloys, EDC, arm-rest, front park sensors) but not the full list of options or even near it.

I haven't heard whether they test the car with driver and fuel or not, maybe Steved might know which, being a friend of Chris at Autocar.
I've always thought that the e92M3 was under 3600lbs, so i don't understand why the BMWusa.com website would list the e92M3 at 3704lbs unladen weight and 3740lbs for the e90M3. Obviously there has got to be a difference between the U.S. spec and Euro spec. models.


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      03-03-2008, 11:39 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by e36jakeo View Post
I've read quite a few articles that say the 997 Turbo does not handle very well at the track. It is quite a bit slower than a GT3, which has a lot less HP and torque (although comes with sticky R compounds). The 911 Turbo is for guys who like to say "I have a 911 Turbo" and who like to punch it on the on ramp until they hit 80 MPH. GT3s are for true drivers.

THe GTR is pretty hard-core and, although its AWD and turbo power may make you want to compare it against the 911 Turbo, I think in spirit it is a lot closer to the GT3. The GT3 is supposed to ride decent with the adjustible suspension (PASM??) and probably as well as the GTR. Meanwhile it is more involving, better sounding, better looking (my opinion) and almost as fast in a straight line and probably equally fast around MOST road courses (that have lots of turns - no N'Ring) as the GTR. When you factor in the GTR's markup, the two may cost similar $$s, too.
Have you ever owned or even driven a 911 turbo? The turbo is definately softer than the GT3, but if it wasn't then the GT3 would not make as much sense. The turbo, although marketed for a different type of driver, has run pretty even wirth the GT3 on some road coures and will utterly destroy it on the street. It is hardly for those who want to punch it on an on ramp. It is an absolutely incredible street sports car and is more car than most street drivers could truely appreciate.

Match the turbo against the GT-R in a roll on drag race, I am confident the results would be much different. The GT-R, as Swamp and others here have pointed out, has definitive benefits which allow it to beat out all these performance cars. The most important one to me is, will this car come in the states underrated by 40 hp? How much weight will it gain coming here. These two elements alone will clearly define if it will be able to beat out Porsche's almighty turbo. Also, if not for launch control and DSG, it would not be edging out the 911, it would be the other way around.

Lastly, how many time are people going to insist that the GT-R is going for $20-$40k over. Mine is coming at MSRP and many others have sold for the same. Many of these $20k over dealer/stealers have called back customers lowering their mark ups by 50-70%. The norm seems to be anywhere between MSRP, to $5k or $10k over. If Nissan does bump up production as much as they have suggested, the GT-R's overage will greatly diminish as will the residuals; like any other car. I do not want to know what will happen to the prices if the US cars come in with a real 473 hp and not the 530 hp they are generously giving the car now. The more feedback I get the more skeptical I become.

lasty, what is this fascination with a tenth or two on a lenghtly track? In reality, who the fock cares? It is a street car that few will be taken to "driving schools", not GT races. I am getting the GT-R because it IS cheaper than the 911tt thus allowing me to own another $70k car and not have all my eggs in one basket. With a cheaper price comes a cheaper car. I am not afraid to say it. The GT-R although fast is no Porsche. If I were to win the lottery the GT-R would not be a consideration. Sorry, to all those I likely offended, but like DeNiro said in Deer Hunter: "It is what it is, it is not something else, it is what it is".
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