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      02-29-2008, 03:37 PM   #45
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I like Yao and the Rockets too so my observation had no Rocket hate involved.
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      02-29-2008, 04:02 PM   #46
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Lamar Odom has played in 25 playoff games. That is plenty.

Kobe playoff numbers:
06-07 averaged 32 pts, 46 FG%, 4.4 assists, 5.2 rebounds
05-06 he averaged 27.9 pts, 50 FG% , 5.1 assists, 6.3 rebounds

Where are you saying he hasn't been playoff dominant? It was tough in those years when you have players like Smush Parker and Kwame Brown Starting. Both players who are getting DNPs on their new teams. Those numbers I posted do not lie.

Gasol has a post game what are you talking about? He operates in the high/pinch post and low post. Bynum is defenitely a defender.



Against Kurt Thomas Bynum scored 12 pts, had 10 rebounds while shooting 5 out of 7 in only 26 minutes earlier this season. Against the Knicks he shot 75% with 13 pts, 8 boards, 2 blocks.

Tim Duncan and Dirk are horrible matchups for everyone. Bynum doesn't have to be an overwhelming presence. He needs to be a defensive anchor and he does that. He's averaging 13 pts, 10.2 rebounds, and 2 blocks in 28 minutes a game!

Tim Duncan in 2 games vs the Lakers this year averaged 16.5 Pts, 11 rebounds, 4 assists, while shooting only 41%. Bynum did a fantastic job on him this year.

The Lakers are rated the 5th defensive team in the NBA and 2nd offensive team in the NBA right now.

Kobe Bryant is the undisputed best player in the league. In the playoffs, you've got to do more for your team than in the regular season. You look back at the great playoff performances.. you think of Magic going way beyond his typical numbers, you think of Jordan, you think of Iverson taking the 76ers to the finals with Matt Geiger!? You think of Billups' performances in the Finals against LA. You think of Tony Parker last year. To win it all, somebody HAS to play beyond how well they play in the playoffs. For the Lakers to win a ring without Shaq, Kobe's going to have to play at the highest level, even with the talent surrounding him.

On the topic of Bynum. Bynum put 13, 8, and 2 against the Knicks in 38 minutes of play. By comparison, david lee put up 12 points and 13 rebounds in 31 minutes. So Bynum's numbers are good, but he's hardly dominant. Mentioning regular season performances against Kurt Thomas and Tim Duncan is completely irrelevant. Veterans don't play hard during the regular season.

You've got old teams like the Mavs, Spurs, and Pistons who are already proven. They play hard enough to get decent playoff standings and that's that. On the other hand, Bynum and the Lakers have a LOT to prove at this point, so of course they come hard every game.

On the topic of Pau Gasol, yes, he goes to the post when there's no one in the post who will bang with him. For instance, against the clippers last night, Gasol went to the post. Rewind to the Suns game a week ago (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/shotch...meId=280220021)... Put Shaq and Amare in the equation and Gasol fades away to the perimeter.
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      02-29-2008, 04:12 PM   #47
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Bynum is EASILY intimidated? Obviously you haven't seen that one game against Shaq. After he got dunked on by Shaq, he went straight to Shaq the very next paly and returned the favor. Remember the very first statement he made when he got drafted?? "I can make free throws." I really don't think he's intimidated by Eddy Curry, or Kurt Thomas.

And that comes back to the matchup. Let's say Lakers play the spurs in the playoffs, who's going to guard who?

Fisher (maybe even Farmar) -> Parker (advantage Spurs)
Kobe -> Ginobli (advantage Lakers)
Lamar -> Bowen (advantage Lakers)
Pau Pau -> Oberto (advantage Lakers)
Bynum -> Duncan (slight advantage Spurs).

Overall Advantage - Lakers.

Spurs and Celtics are probably the two teams that can be flexible enough to match up better with the Lakers. Detroit's toughness will be hard to ignore though. so the final four I'm guessing are these four.
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      02-29-2008, 04:17 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAcAvenger View Post
Kobe Bryant is the undisputed best player in the league. In the playoffs, you've got to do more for your team than in the regular season. You look back at the great playoff performances.. you think of Magic going way beyond his typical numbers, you think of Jordan, you think of Iverson taking the 76ers to the finals with Matt Geiger!? You think of Billups' performances in the Finals against LA. You think of Tony Parker last year. To win it all, somebody HAS to play beyond how well they play in the playoffs. For the Lakers to win a ring without Shaq, Kobe's going to have to play at the highest level, even with the talent surrounding him.
The 76er teams played defense. Last 2 years, the Lakers didn't play much and were plagued with injuries. Again, Smush Parker and Kwame Brown are not getting ANY playing time on their new teams. They are getting DNPs all over the place.

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On the topic of Bynum. Bynum put 13, 8, and 2 against the Knicks in 38 minutes of play. By comparison, david lee put up 12 points and 13 rebounds in 31 minutes. So Bynum's numbers are good, but he's hardly dominant. Mentioning regular season performances against Kurt Thomas and Tim Duncan is completely irrelevant. Veterans don't play hard during the regular season.
We don't need him to be dominant, we need him to be a force in the middle, rebound, and block shots. What do you mean by dominant anyways? More points? The Lakers are second in the league in scoring so scoring is not a problem. Rebounding currently is with Bynum out.

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You've got old teams like the Mavs, Spurs, and Pistons who are already proven. They play hard enough to get decent playoff standings and that's that. On the other hand, Bynum and the Lakers have a LOT to prove at this point, so of course they come hard every game.
I agree. But they have been coming hard. I think the experience of Derek Fisher and Kobe will help them lead the way. I'm not sure if I stated this yet (I thought I did), but the Lakers best chance is next year, not this year. I'm not saying a title is the Lakers' this year, but I like their chances. That is all.

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On the topic of Pau Gasol, yes, he goes to the post when there's no one in the post who will bang with him. For instance, against the clippers last night, Gasol went to the post. Rewind to the Suns game a week ago (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/shotch...meId=280220021)... Put Shaq and Amare in the equation and Gasol fades away to the perimeter.
See, I don't get that argument. Why bang with more powerful players? If you are equally as effective outside, why go on the inside? What is the best thing to do against Shaq? Bang with him inside? Your argument is absurd. Get out of here with that. Teams will pick and roll Shaq all day and use big men to draw him outside so he doesn't clog the lane and block shots. Period.

Against the Suns he was 13-19. Against Orlando and Dwight Howard he was 12-15 and scored 30 pts with 9 rebounds. There is a benefit to Gasol playing on the pinch post (That is not considered the perimeter btw). He draws opposing big men out and finds open cutters and opens up the lanes for players like Kobe. Tim Duncan does the exact same thing for the Spurs. He operates at the pinch post, the elbow.

Pau isn't exactly going on the perimeter as you say, he isn't Dirk.

Are you really going to say he was ineffective vs. the Suns or Orlando? WHO CARES if he operates from the pinch post, he was effective. It's hard to argue against 13 out of 19 and 12 out of 15. That's pretty darn efficient.
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      02-29-2008, 04:22 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAcAvenger View Post
Kobe Bryant is the undisputed best player in the league. In the playoffs, you've got to do more for your team than in the regular season. You look back at the great playoff performances.. you think of Magic going way beyond his typical numbers, you think of Jordan, you think of Iverson taking the 76ers to the finals with Matt Geiger!? You think of Billups' performances in the Finals against LA. You think of Tony Parker last year. To win it all, somebody HAS to play beyond how well they play in the playoffs. For the Lakers to win a ring without Shaq, Kobe's going to have to play at the highest level, even with the talent surrounding him.
Which we've seen through this summer's Team USA games and the 50 odd games this season.

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On the topic of Bynum. Bynum put 13, 8, and 2 against the Knicks in 38 minutes of play. By comparison, david lee put up 12 points and 13 rebounds in 31 minutes. So Bynum's numbers are good, but he's hardly dominant.
Are you saying you would take David Lee over Bynum? I think if you do, EVERY SINGLE coach, GM, and analyst in the NBA will disagree with you. Other than Isiah Thomas of course.

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Originally Posted by TheAcAvenger View Post
Mentioning regular season performances against Kurt Thomas and Tim Duncan is completely irrelevant. Veterans don't play hard during the regular season.
So I guess Kobe's a rookie, not a veteran.

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Originally Posted by TheAcAvenger View Post
You've got old teams like the Mavs, Spurs, and Pistons who are already proven. They play hard enough to get decent playoff standings and that's that. On the other hand, Bynum and the Lakers have a LOT to prove at this point, so of course they come hard every game.
Which makes this team VERY dangerous. And now they added another big gun to back it up.


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Originally Posted by TheAcAvenger View Post
On the topic of Pau Gasol, yes, he goes to the post when there's no one in the post who will bang with him. For instance, against the clippers last night, Gasol went to the post. Rewind to the Suns game a week ago (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/shotch...meId=280220021)... Put Shaq and Amare in the equation and Gasol fades away to the perimeter.
Shaq was a non-factor. Gasol did fade away, nifty footworks for layups, and also semi-sky hooks in the post. They outscore the Suns in the post with Shaq and Amare there. And thats all Gasol need to do.
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      02-29-2008, 04:39 PM   #50
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Yes, Kobe's a veteran, but a veteran that has a whole lot more to prove than the likes of a Tim Duncan. Between the offseason and the whole "you can't win a ring without shaq" stigma, of COURSE Kobe plays harder during the regular season.

My comments about Bynum were a response to another post in this thread where someone made Bynum out to be some kind of threat. He's not. Of course I wouldn't take David Lee over him, but the fact that he's comparable to David Lee shows that.

If Shaq was a non-factor, Gasol would've been taking layups and dunks like last night. He may not have actually done anything, but his presence alone will mean something for the Suns.

OC, I agree with your critique of your last comment, but I'm curious to see how that system works with a team that plays better perimeter defense than the Magic. The Magic really havent evolved their team defense to the point where they rotate to open shooters without leaving the post open.

By next year, I think the Lakers will be ready to win it all, but I'm not convinced that they're ready this year to take it from the likes of the Pistons and Spurs.


But on another note, it's good to see that there are still people online who talk about the League, OC and TimZero, we can go all day!
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      02-29-2008, 05:14 PM   #51
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Again, this is working out to be the best season ever, thats why we can be having this kind of discussion.

Kobe does have something to prove, and thats another reason why Lakers is the team to beat. Last night's game in Miami, the commentators brought up something interesting. They said if Kobe were to trade places with Wade at the start of the season, Miami would be in the playoffs at the end of the year. Kobe would not have allowed them to have won only 10 games.

Bynum is a threat. I don't think though anyone thing he's the x-factor, or a Shaq-like players. But the fact is with the way Lakers are playing now which is at an extremely high level, when they add back in one of the most exciting center in the NBA right now, on paper it would be scary. Bynum himself might not be scary, but no one will say they are not at least a bit comprehensive of how well the laker CAN play once they get back Bynum.

Let's not forget Ariza either. Is Ariza a dominant player? By anyone's standard, no. But, he fills in the hole on defense and he's a player that can do the little things. His return can improve the Lakers as well.

On Gasol... what you're saying is exactly what makes him so valuable. He is just effective when not going to the basket as when he is making the slip screen and getting dunks.

You can have a team who can stuff the interior, but Gasol can just get easy short perimeter shots all day. And if that draws out the defender, it leaves the interior wide open for Bynum to work on. Having 2 7-footers with drastically different skill sets is what makes Bynum's return and re-integration such a big hype. Then you got Lamar diving all the time from the top of the key, this only leaves Fisher, Farmar, Sasha, and Vlady wide open on the outside.

You're right though, Lakers might not be able to win it all this year because all the moves other teams made in response to the Lakers trade, but the next 3+ years... Whether they are the team to beat right now? I think being at the top of the western conference, having a 10 game winning streak, winning 13 of their last 14, and got a 7-2 record on a 9 game road trip makes them the team every other team targets right now.
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      02-29-2008, 06:00 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAcAvenger View Post
Yes, Kobe's a veteran, but a veteran that has a whole lot more to prove than the likes of a Tim Duncan. Between the offseason and the whole "you can't win a ring without shaq" stigma, of COURSE Kobe plays harder during the regular season.
I understand what you are saying. He has stuff to prove but at the same time he's a proven player.

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My comments about Bynum were a response to another post in this thread where someone made Bynum out to be some kind of threat. He's not. Of course I wouldn't take David Lee over him, but the fact that he's comparable to David Lee shows that.
He's a threat man. I don't know what to tell you. Yes, he's averaging 13 PPG. He was averaging closer to 15-18 PPG when he got injured. He's shooting at 65% this year. He's not dominant, but he is surely a threat. With the Double Teams Kobe and Gasol command, he is even more of a threat.

Quote:
If Shaq was a non-factor, Gasol would've been taking layups and dunks like last night. He may not have actually done anything, but his presence alone will mean something for the Suns.
Actually Gasol had a bunch of layups and dunks the whole game. It wasn't on one on one ISOs though. The pick and roll killed Shaq over and over again. That pick and roll won't be as effective against the Spurs though.

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OC, I agree with your critique of your last comment, but I'm curious to see how that system works with a team that plays better perimeter defense than the Magic. The Magic really havent evolved their team defense to the point where they rotate to open shooters without leaving the post open.
Spurs help and recover as good as u can in the league. Most of the other teams have a problem. Single cover Gasol? Fine, that means you can't single cover Kobe. You are delusional if you think Bowen can defend Kobe 1v1. No one can. It's about team defense. Kobe has a player who can finish and score now, he hasn't had that since.. well Shaq... We know what happened then. (Yes, I know Gasol isn't Shaq but he is certainly a premier scorer in the league and Kobe has more help these days).

Quote:
By next year, I think the Lakers will be ready to win it all, but I'm not convinced that they're ready this year to take it from the likes of the Pistons and Spurs.
I agree whole-heartedly. But the NBA has shown in recent years anyone can win. That's why they play the games. All I know is the playoffs are going to be GREAT this year.

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But on another note, it's good to see that there are still people online who talk about the League, OC and TimZero, we can go all day!
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      02-29-2008, 06:16 PM   #53
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Who needs Steven A Smith? You guys are going to town on this shiz.
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      03-02-2008, 07:32 PM   #54
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WOW What a game like today. Nice to see that we can play like crap and still pull it out!
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      03-02-2008, 08:04 PM   #55
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WOW What a game like today. Nice to see that we can play like crap and still pull it out!
Both teams played like crap. Is it just me, or is Dirk not quite the dominant force he used to be. Kobe played well, and Eric Dampier really seems to be taking advantage of JKidd. I won't even say anything about how effective Gasol was at keeping him off the boards and keeping him from having his best game of the season. Bynum should fix those problems when he comes back so Gasol won't have to guard the center spot, but it's something to keep in mind should the Lakers have to face SA or Boston where the bigs will be playing the 4 spot. What an off night for Josh Howard though. This season is turning out to be amazing.
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      03-02-2008, 08:48 PM   #56
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6 games in 9 days, pretty impressive.

Dirk was a monster in the 4th, he was pretty dominant offensively. A large percentage of those offensive rebounds are caused by penetration of the opposing team's guards which forces your big man to rotate over. With Ariza & Bynum, that should help some.
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      03-03-2008, 01:24 AM   #57
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Whats up with Dampier's dirty plays? PMS?
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      03-03-2008, 09:31 AM   #58
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After years of watching the nba turn into the flop association, its good to see a return of the physical, dirty play of the 90s. It's not like dampier wacked him across the face or anything.

Phil Jackson last year said, "This is the NBA. No Boys Allowed"
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      03-03-2008, 12:14 PM   #59
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What's all this madness about them Texas teams > Lakers.

Just madness!

The parade will be in LA this year.
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      03-03-2008, 12:52 PM   #60
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After years of watching the nba turn into the flop association, its good to see a return of the physical, dirty play of the 90s. It's not like dampier wacked him across the face or anything.

Phil Jackson last year said, "This is the NBA. No Boys Allowed"
If he just hacked him hard thats one thing. You saw that hockey style body check. Enough to send a lesser player into the stand with strong possibility of injury. That should've been an automatic flagrant 1. It was done with intention to hurt someone. Now if this was the NHL or NFL, great check, great tackle, but lets not forget, those players wear pads and helmets.

Most important of all, if the refs are going to let them play on, they should do it consistently. Not ignoring a flagrant foul on this end while on the other end calling a flop by Dirk when Lamar was standing straight up.
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      03-03-2008, 01:06 PM   #61
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A body check is 20 times less likely to cause injury than grabbing someone in the air like most of the flagrant fouls you see. If you're going to foul someone, you have to make sure they don't make the basket, otherwise there's no point in fouling them. You saw exactly what happened when they didn't foul kobe hard enough at the end of the game where he made that ridiculous layup and got to go to the line.

The plays where you see a player driving to the lane and then have a defender come across with a flying arm and damn near closeline the player to the ground are dangerous and should be classified as flagrants. A body bump should not be classified as that excessive. The fact that kobe landed on the feet first with no injury clearly shows that the way dampier was fouling wasn't all that bad.

Ask TJ Ford what a flagrant foul looks like.

And dirk always gets all the calls. You can't compare anyone to Dirk. It's like he has a button in his pocket that he presses when he wants a foul called.
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      03-03-2008, 01:26 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by TheAcAvenger View Post
Both teams played like crap.

I won't even say anything about how effective Gasol was at keeping him off the boards and keeping him from having his best game of the season. Bynum should fix those problems when he comes back so Gasol won't have to guard the center spot, but it's something to keep in mind should the Lakers have to face SA or Boston where the bigs will be playing the 4 spot. What an off night for Josh Howard though. This season is turning out to be amazing.
I have to agree on both fronts. Both teams did play like crap and I was noticing that even though Dirk wasn't scoring through 3 quarters after that he couldn't stop Dirk at all. I don't know if he got tired or if Dirk was just trying to take the game over but it certainly was obvious that something changed BIG time! But at the same time once Bynum comes back those two can be switching back and forth between other team's big guys and Odom can help out as well rather than being as thin as we are up there.
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      03-03-2008, 01:44 PM   #63
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If you watch the instant replays, you can see, on both occasions, Jason Terry provided the best moving screen to create space for Dirk's buzzer 3 pointers.

Granted that Dirk is a great shooter, but an illegal pick is an illegal pick.

The game should've ended in 4th quarter.
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      03-03-2008, 03:28 PM   #64
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What made the Dampier body check a flagrant is because he was not going after the ball at all. A good hard foul is you go after the ball and you make sure it doesn't leave the hand of the other player, or you make sure the player falls to the ground after you hit the ball.

His INTENTION was to bump Kobe, he never went for the ball. That is why it should've been a flagrant. If he wanted to send a message, what he should've done was to go up challenge kobe while getting full contact of the body and knocking him to the floor. Not just run straight into someone and body check them.

And like you just agreed to, Dirk got his calls. Regardless of how often he get calls going his way, they called it on the Lakers and didn't call it on Dallas. That's what anger players and fans.

You can botch calls or see a certain foul a different way, but you have to be consistent. If you want to be wrong, be consistently wrong. After the gambling incident, we all know certain Refs CAN have their own agenda, which can alter the outcome of the game. So can you not wonder when all the calls are going towards one team and not the other? The ecouraging part is Laker still came out with a W.
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      03-03-2008, 03:35 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrwma237 View Post
If you watch the instant replays, you can see, on both occasions, Jason Terry provided the best moving screen to create space for Dirk's buzzer 3 pointers.

Granted that Dirk is a great shooter, but an illegal pick is an illegal pick.

The game should've ended in 4th quarter.
The pick would not have been as effective if Lamar Odom played the inbounds play correctly. Both Jeff Van Gundy and Rick Carlisle on ESPN explained the play in detail. Dirk was inbounding the ball and Lamar backed up several steps closer to Jason Kidd. Everyone knew the play was for Dirk, after inbounding the ball, Lamar needed to play ball denial on Dirk. If he did this, any screen would NOT have been as effective, in fact, they may have needed to use multiple screens which would have been a problem since they only had less than 7 seconds.

Lamar played great D most of the game but totally dropped the ball on that play. When you are up by 3, you don't give up the 3. When there's > 7 seconds left, then you let them score 2, chances are, they won't have that much time on their last shot. Up by 3, let them score 2. Let's say it takes them 3-4 seconds to make that shot. Then you have 3-4 seconds left on the game, Lakers inbound, they foul immediately, there will be 2-3 seconds left in the game (if that). Lakers make/miss FTs. Dallas has 2-3 seconds left in the game but they were OUT OF TIMEOUTS.
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      03-03-2008, 04:35 PM   #66
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It did appear as if Lamar screwed up on that play. He anticipated a baseline run by Dirk, god knows why, thats why he backed up. You never know though, maybe Phil and coaching staff watched some tape and told him to not let Dirk go towards the corner, push him to the top of the key where there's help. Maybe Gasol was suppose to have rotated over early just in that scenario but he was a step too slow. Whatever it was, somebody screwed up and gave Dirk a wide open shot and he drained it.

This type of situation is exactly why we love having Kobe. He took over the game, pulled us even, took the lead, and won the game in OT. This is from ESPN's article -

Mavericks coach Avery Johnson tried a variety of ways to stop him. Nothing worked.

"We gave him a single look, then we double-teamed him, then we gave him a triple-team and he split the triple-team and scored," Johnson said. "We tried to zone him, we tried to funnel him in the trap for a zone and he went the other way. He didn't cooperate on any of our defenses.
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