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      03-17-2008, 11:15 AM   #111
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Catholics believe in the Trinity, as do I. However, I would never pray to Mary or the saints.

So you've never said a "Hail Mary?"
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      03-17-2008, 11:23 AM   #112
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A lot of Christians (Protestants, etc.) do not see Catholics as Christian.
Roman Catholics are the largest body of Christians worldwide, larger than all other sects of Christianity combined, with over 1 Billion members in total. As Christianity represents about a quarter of the world's population, Catholicism is roughly one eigth of the entire world's population.

It's also the oldest of the modern divisions of Christianity, compared with Protestanism, which is only about a quarter as old (established mid 1500s). Some might argue the orthodox churches are older, but at that point, we're splitting hairs between the first centuries following Christ's death.

No shortage of mis-information here!
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      03-17-2008, 12:25 PM   #113
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So you've never said a "Hail Mary?"
Of course not. I have visited at Catholic church services a few times, but I have never said a Hail Mary. I have recited the Lord's prayer, but not in the sense of the Catholic Our Father. We don't "do penance". That is a Catholic thing.
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Roman Catholics are the largest body of Christians worldwide, larger than all other sects of Christianity combined, with over 1 Billion members in total. As Christianity represents about a quarter of the world's population, Catholicism is roughly one eigth of the entire world's population.

It's also the oldest of the modern divisions of Christianity, compared with Protestanism, which is only about a quarter as old (established mid 1500s). Some might argue the orthodox churches are older, but at that point, we're splitting hairs between the first centuries following Christ's death.

No shortage of mis-information here!
Are you Catholic?

I don't care if you call Catholics Christian. It fits the general idea. I've talked with people before who I have asked, "Are you Christian?" and their response was, "No, I'm Catholic." It just depends upon how you define Christian. It'll all be sorted out in the end. I don't plan on being the one to do it. It doensn't matter whether you are Protestant, Jew, Catholic, whatever. If you are Christian, that is the requirement for salvation. Jesus will reap the harvest and sort it out then.
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      03-17-2008, 01:04 PM   #114
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I was baptised and confirmed, and went to Catholic grade school, but I don't practice religion any longer.

Saying Catholicism isn't Christian is insane. It's older than just about every other form of Christianity. Saying that newer forms of Christianity are more true (like Protestants, only about a quarter of the age of the Orthodox and Catholic churches), then denouncing only some of them (Mormonism) is incredibly ridiculous (not you, just in general / Carolyn)
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      03-17-2008, 01:07 PM   #115
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You live a life of conformity through following someone else's rational suggestions because you can't make up your own moral framework. Seriously.
Oh contraeur, I had a choice when I accepted Christ as my Savior; noone begged me, noone threatened me; I have a will of my own given to me by almighty God; I make my own choices, not by fear or family; my family had a Christian background, but I did not grow up being prodded by my family; I actually went to church then, as now, much more than my parents or grandparents; so this decision was not placed upon by family background.
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      03-17-2008, 01:16 PM   #116
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i wouldn't go as far as saying catholics aren't christian, but they do have some practices that are not biblical.
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      03-17-2008, 01:30 PM   #117
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[quote=AWD Addict;2316333]Catholics aren't Christians!?!?! I'm learning SO MUCH in this thread!

[quote=Carolyn0944;2315769]
Wine & wafers are symbolic of the flesh & blood of Christ - the Bible says "do this in remembrance of Me"

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?? We do not use water to cleanse ones soul; the only water we use is in baptizing; the Bible tells us once we have made a public profession of faith, to be baptized (immersed in water) as a symbol of dying from the old flesh & putting on the new flesh as a Christian; its a public acknowledgment; Christ thought it important enough to be baptized by John the Baptist and stressed its importance to those around Him



Marriage, Easter, etc all have symbolic candles. Catholicism is one of hte largest Christian groups on earth. Clue in.



Priests do.



When a priest blesses the holy water? When he blesses the host and the sacrament wine? The blessings at baptism, weddings, funerals, and confirmation?




The crucifix is the most prominant symbol of Christianity. The stations of the cross, statue of the blessed virgin, and many other figures are prayed to every day by Christians around the world.
I still beg to differ with you in all of the above you have mentioned; all of what you describe above is mostly Catholicism; not protestant. We do not bless water nor sprinkle at ceremonies. Only water associated with our belief is baptism which is scriptural.

We do not pray to statues; we do take our prayers to the foot of the cross in symbolism; because that's where Christ took our sins, to the cross.

I still tell you our pastors or clergy do not wear adornment i.e. robes, stoles or shawls, crowns etc. This is catholic as well. And lighting candles for Easter, Christmas or any other holiday as far as prayer goes, we do none of this.

We do not confess to priests or a third party of any kind; only God/Jesus can forgive our sins, not priests; we do not pray to Mary or hail her as anything other than the Mother of Christ. She is not a "holy" person.

When you say I conform to others; there is a Biblical scripture that says,
"Be not conformed to THIS world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may know what is that good, acceptable, and perfect will of God." You cannot serve the world (everything and everyone around you) and serve God as well. He wants your all.

When you people start these "religion" threads and do not in any way believe in God, and then accuse those who reply to them as trying to stuff religion down your throat, that's kind of a two edged sword, don't you think? If you are interested in faith and don't believe in it, why all the questions and then accusations when we answer?

There are many, many good people in this world who are not saved by the grace of God. They do great things, they spend large amounts of money for humanity, they push all the right buttons but do not want to accept that there is a higher power than themselves. They want to be in total control and live their lives how they want to, not by answering for sins committed even though they do good things. God says you cannot; you must live a life pleasing to Him.

Have you ever noticed when you watch movies or documentaries on Mafia, they are always catholic and give large sums of money to the church; they even have their priests involved; then, when they do their dastardly deeds, they go to confession with a priest and all is right with the world until the next act of hindenism is performed; then it's to do all over again.

The fall of tele evangelical preachers puts a bad taste in the mouth of those needing salvation. It is very sad, but these are not followers that I see as Christian except that some have gotten caught up in money, greed, women, when they were in the beginning great men of God. Some never were. With the exception being Rev. Billy Graham; he is exactly what he says he is and preaches. But the people that listen to these fallen preachers are not normally church going believing people. They seek God from afar and fall into these false teachers. Now, there are many other TV evangelists that are true to the Lord and I'm not trying to put any of them in a position of worldliness unless they have already been exposed i.e. Jimmy Swaggart (who started out a Godly man), Ted Haggart, the Bakers, etc.
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      03-17-2008, 02:09 PM   #118
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you can beg to differ all you like, so far, you've been stunningly wrong on all counts.

1) Baptism using water is exactly what I was speaking to. It's cultish to use things symbolically like this. The water as a representative cleansing of the soul of sin prior to receiving Christ. This is not exclusive to Catholics, but all Christianity, although sometimes in slightly different form. You deny that as cultish. I think it's strangely similar to other ritualistic and symbolic practices by all sorts of cults.

2) You pray to a cross of wood, yet deny you pray to statues or other symbols? You pray to a cross of wood, and deny the cultish nature of that?

4) You deny drinking symbolic blood and flesh as cultish in any way?! I think the druids have nothing on you!!

5) Your particular sect of Christianity may not have priests wearing stoles or robes, but that, and the fact your crucifix doens't bear the body of Christ, put you and your particular sect in the great minority of World Christians. The vast majority of the world's Christians are very different that you.

6) I never accused anyone of shoving anything anywhere. Thanks. Please don't classify me (or anyone) as "you people" I expect the same respect I've given you in this discussion.

7) Saying the rituals, including the regular attendance of group prayer at mass/church, are not cultish, is simply blind. All religion is cult.

From Websters:

Quote:
cult [kuhlt]
-noun
1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers:
3. the object of such devotion.
4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5. Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
6. the members of such a religion or sect.
The very etymology of the word itself stems from "worship" Stop drinking denial juice. It's not an insult, you just misused the term applying it to Mormons. You and all other supernatural worshiping folk are members of a cult. Don't look at it so negatively. It is what it is.

The crucifix is used by almos all sects of Christianity, particularly the oldest and most established, including the Orthodox and Catholic sects, as well as the Anglican, and other Eastern Christian sects. Denying the symbol of a cross, with or without the corpus christi on it, is plain denial. Whatever sect you are a part of is a very small portion of the greater Christian base.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifix
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      03-17-2008, 02:51 PM   #119
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I can understand what you mean as far as the "dictionary" defines cult.

When I think of cult, I think of those religions or behaviors that are not based on the Holy Bible. That even includes groups such as Charles Manson, John Karesh, and even the organized faiths of Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, or any other structured faith that does not believe in the virginal birth of Christ, His death and resurrection for our sins.

We can argue back & forth til the cows come home; when I speak of cults, I speak in terms of any religion or denomination that believes in practices that are not in the Holy Bible;

My faith, Southern Baptist, is one of the largest groups of practicing Christians as well; but I think if you truly research any of Christian faith, they do not display Christ on the cross. Our symbolism of bringing prayer to the cross does not mean that we "worship" the cross. We just use the cross as an altar because Christ died on that wooden cross for mankind's sin. I do not deny the symbol of the cross, just a Christ still hanging on it.

I have a gold cross my husband purchased for me which I love, but it does not have Christ on it. My Christ is in heaven, not on that cross. Yes, He died there, but His absence reminds me that we will have a resurrected life after death.

When I think of worshiping symbols or idols, I think of worshiping cows as the hindu faith does; their people starve to death and will not kill a cow for consumption; golden idols, even the idols of man like "money, time, jobs, porn,
adultery; you as mortal man do not believe these things to be idols, but anything that comes before God is an idol.

The taking of the Lord's Supper i.e. grape juice & crackers is Biblical; baptism is Biblical; but, I forgot, you don't believe the Bible; so my argument has no case with you.
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      03-17-2008, 04:25 PM   #120
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So you think all Christian sects other than Southern Baptists are cults? Cult generally carries a negative conotation, so I'm somewhat surprised by that statement.

Also, for clarification on the "idols of man", do you mean that you don't have a job, and won't keep the money you make? Just curious.
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      03-17-2008, 04:49 PM   #121
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So you think all Christian sects other than Southern Baptists are cults? Cult generally carries a negative conotation, so I'm somewhat surprised by that statement.

I believe that any "religion" that does not found its doctrine on a resurrected Jesus Christ who was born of a virgin & died for our sins at calvary are not religions based on the Holy Bible and yes, a cult. That does not mean that Sou Bapt are the only one who believe this doctrine; they are not.

Also, for clarification on the "idols of man", do you mean that you don't have a job, and won't keep the money you make? Just curious.
Yes I had a job before I retired & I used my money; that's not what I mean.
There are many people who worship money i.e. feel they never have enough, do not share with family or the needy, work too many hrs and short change their family; they use jobs as their lives with no time for family, church & God, etc. When you place any of these things above all others, they are idols. Anything that is excessive in nature or against the Lord.
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      03-17-2008, 05:27 PM   #122
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When I think of cult, I think of those religions or behaviors that are not based on the Holy Bible. That even includes groups such as Charles Manson, John Karesh, and even the organized faiths of Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, or any other structured faith that does not believe in the virginal birth of Christ, His death and resurrection for our sins.
Well, then I guess he Jehovah's witnesses and Mormons are justified in calling your faith a cult, right? What makes your perspective dominant over theirs? Both practice ritualistic behavior, heavily incorporating symbolism and representative rituals. Both have an old book that tells them what to do, and what's right (in fact, they're both called the bible! )

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I can understand what you mean as far as the "dictionary" defines cult.
Most people use the dictionary for that sort of thing.


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We can argue back & forth til the cows come home; when I speak of cults, I speak in terms of any religion or denomination that believes in practices that are not in the Holy Bible;.
So what magically excludes Christianity (and apparently only your minority portion of it) from the definition? Just simply the fact that YOU favor the book?

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My faith, Southern Baptist, is one of the largest groups of practicing Christians as well; but I think if you truly research any of Christian faith, they do not display Christ on the cross.
They are the second largest i the USA, the largest Protestant group, and relatively new compared to other Christian denominations. They have only been in existance since 1845 or so, when they split from other baptist faiths (largely due to slavery and the african american following at the time)

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The taking of the Lord's Supper i.e. grape juice & crackers is Biblical; baptism is Biblical; but, I forgot, you don't believe the Bible; so my argument has no case with you.
Whether the Bible, Quran, Torah, Necronomicon, or any other text say it, it's still a cultish ritual. Drinking real blood, fake blood, symbolic blood, cow's blood or whatever your ancient text decided to tell you to do, is a ritual.

Your case that the Bible makes it different is silly, because anyone with an old book and some faith has that excuse, which means your faith hasn't any more merit than any other, except for the fact it's the one you chose (or did you just blindly inherit it from your parents before you were of age to make the proper decision?)
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      03-17-2008, 05:29 PM   #123
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Want to talk about the Bible now? Do you know where the stories came from, and how they were incorporated into the Hebrew Torah before it became the Old Testament?

Do you know about ALL the gospels, not just the canonical texts chosen by the emperors after Nicea?

History has ALL the answers, you know. My religion is science.
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      03-17-2008, 05:36 PM   #124
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Oh contraeur, I had a choice when I accepted Christ as my Savior; noone begged me, noone threatened me; I have a will of my own given to me by almighty God; I make my own choices, not by fear or family; my family had a Christian background, but I did not grow up being prodded by my family; I actually went to church then, as now, much more than my parents or grandparents; so this decision was not placed upon by family background.
You misunderstood; I consider the Bible as someone's really old rational suggestions - therefore meaning that you lack moral framework of your own.
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      03-17-2008, 06:17 PM   #125
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I very well know there were books that were removed from the original Bible
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      03-17-2008, 06:24 PM   #126
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The Bible is anything but a book of suggestions; you choose not to believe, I choose to believe; let's just leave it at that, but I tell you what; I won't expect "science" to decide my fate.

I'll ask you one more question that I don't know if you ever truly think about.
Why do you believe you are on this earth? What do you feel each one of us
is here for - any particular reason? Just placed here to live, make a living, have a family and die? Do you really have a purpose? What is that purpose?

And I have plenty of morals....
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      03-17-2008, 06:29 PM   #127
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The Bible is anything but a book of suggestions; you choose not to believe, I choose to believe; let's just leave it at that, but I tell you what; I won't expect "science" to decide my fate.

I'll ask you one more question that I don't know if you ever truly think about.
Why do you believe you are on this earth? What do you feel each one of us
is here for - any particular reason? Just placed here to live, make a living, have a family and die? Do you really have a purpose? What is that purpose?
Christianity provides you with a purpose?

Do you mean to serve god, then live in paradise forever? You really buy that there's some paradise in the sky you get exclusive admission to because somewhere along your lineage, someone guessed right and picked Christianity?

There's some really old books about Santa Claus too, you know. But it doesn't mean there's elves at the North Pole.

I prefer to think I've got a limited time here on this rock before it all goes dark, and only one shot to do it all right. I've but no choice be to be good. If I don't, my hell would have been the life I lived, which might as well have been eternal, as it was the entire existance I had.

End result is the same, only my Sunday's are free for football, and I don't have to bother with all the cultish rituals.

Life doesn't have to have a purpose. It doesn't for any other life form, so what makes us so special? The answer, is quite frankly, THUMBS. (not kidding)
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      03-17-2008, 06:55 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolyn0944 View Post
The Bible is anything but a book of suggestions; you choose not to believe, I choose to believe; let's just leave it at that, but I tell you what; I won't expect "science" to decide my fate.

I'll ask you one more question that I don't know if you ever truly think about.
Why do you believe you are on this earth? What do you feel each one of us
is here for - any particular reason? Just placed here to live, make a living, have a family and die? Do you really have a purpose? What is that purpose?

And I have plenty of morals....
What do you think of a goldfish? Do you think a goldfish has a purpose in life?
Do you really think human's are more superior that we must have a purpose in life, while other creatures don't?
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      03-17-2008, 07:52 PM   #129
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no he didn't and i'm sorry you've met people like that. that is a bad tactic in my opinion.

but he did tell us to share the Gospel with the world. we are the light of the world. the salt of the earth. the yeast in the dough. i suppose mathew 28 is unfamiliar to you. it is the great commission before Jesus went up to heaven after his ressurection. his final instruction to his followers. i would think that it was important.

do you deny this?
How difficult is it to press shift key at the beginning of the sentence...c'mon dude...
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      03-17-2008, 08:01 PM   #130
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The Bible is anything but a book of suggestions; you choose not to believe, I choose to believe; let's just leave it at that, but I tell you what; I won't expect "science" to decide my fate.

I'll ask you one more question that I don't know if you ever truly think about.
Why do you believe you are on this earth? What do you feel each one of us
is here for - any particular reason? Just placed here to live, make a living, have a family and die? Do you really have a purpose? What is that purpose?

And I have plenty of morals....
Except itís not a 50:50 deal. There are 4 major and countless minor religions. You chose one of them. Based on what? Why is your religion superior than others?

Every person decides his/her purpose in life. You chose to exercise process of obedience without thinking called faith. Agnostics live just like you without the need for a moral/emotional crutch called religion.

Why are we here? What is the reason for our existence?

I think this is a premature question.

You should ask yourself first: Is there a reason?

Have you thought about the fact that there might not be one?

If that scares you, you are welcome to hug the bible and pray. Iíll be just fine, thanks.
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      03-17-2008, 08:29 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolyn0944 View Post
The Bible is anything but a book of suggestions; you choose not to believe, I choose to believe; let's just leave it at that, but I tell you what; I won't expect "science" to decide my fate.

I'll ask you one more question that I don't know if you ever truly think about.
Why do you believe you are on this earth? What do you feel each one of us
is here for - any particular reason? Just placed here to live, make a living, have a family and die? Do you really have a purpose? What is that purpose?

And I have plenty of morals....
The purpose of any living thing is self-fulfillment. For different species it can mean different things, even within species there are differences. A guy two houses down works at some McJob, and smokes weed all day - and he's happy, he's fulfilling his life's aspirations, his life is full of purpose - smoke, make fries, eat fries, shit processed fries, smoke, sleep, repeat... To me, I aspire to other things, including intellectual and spiritual (not what you think) fulfillment, therefore I need more (other?) things in life to consider myself happy, and therefore fulfilling my biological purpose.


Also, I don't know why you want anything to decide your fate; to me religion is another way for the american society to shift responsibility. Parents are blaming Hollywood for fucked up kids, people who refuse to vote blame a moron of a president for a plummeting economy. Everything, and i mean every single thing we do in life, we are responsible for, no exceptions. If my plane crashes while I'm flying to Hawaii, I can trace back the steps of how it would be possible for me to avoid that outcome. There are no accidents, no God's gifts, or God's fuckups - taking responsibility now decides what will happen in the future. No science, and certainly no higher power decides my fate, I do.

And regarding morals, I never denied you had them. I simply meant that I know where exactly you got them...

P.s
How can you apply a measurement to morals anyway...Sometimes I just don't understand people. Hey look, there's that guy again, he's only got 1 moral LOL what a loser... i got 5...I'm totally rocking it in heaven...Seriously, I understand I'm talking semantics, but you're obviously a republican on Bill Maher show. Given there's 5 atheists to every religious person on this forum, I would consider being more thorough with wording arguments since it will obviously be brought up by at least one of your debate opponents.
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      03-17-2008, 09:41 PM   #132
Carolyn0944
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We as human beings are separated from the animal kingdom; God gave us a free will, a thinking mind and emotions that he did not give the animals around us; he expects us to make decisions, think and love.

Yes, the goldfish has a purpose in life; he reproduces his kind and he serves as food for the larger fish....
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