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      02-23-2008, 07:34 PM   #1
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Evolution Question

Evolution Question

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      02-24-2008, 12:20 PM   #2
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What's the question?
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      02-24-2008, 11:30 PM   #3
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The question is: Is Evolution ďjust a theoryĒ?
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      02-24-2008, 11:49 PM   #4
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Wow.. that was a waste of time. That was all incredibly biased, just like you say Fox news is incredibly biased. I mean come on, how did science end slavery??

To answer your question, yes, Evolution is just a theory. Every scientist in the world will say its a theory because it cannot be concretely proven, because us humans were not present at the beginning of man. No experiment can take us back to day 1- therefore, in scientific terms, its just a theory.

Let me just ask you this, seeing that you're obviously atheist after that video, and you now knowing that I'm a Christian...

If you're right about there being no God and no afterlife, then neither one of us loses, because it just flat out doesn't matter... we both end up in nothingness. End. Over.

But what if I'm right? Humor me and continue to read... If I'm right, then there IS a God, there IS an afterlife, but only ones who BELIEVE that God sent his Son Jesus and BELIEVE that He was sent to save us from our sins will be allowed into Heaven... and all the others will be cast into Hell for all eternity.

Kind of a big deal, right?
Therefore, simple logic would tell someone that it's much smarter, from a completely non-religious point of view, to accept Christianity than to not accept it because you have nothing to lose if the atheists are indeed correct.

That's always been the way I see atheism. Kind of a waste to just not believe in anything at all... at least pick something, and maybe you'll have a better chance of going to the good place.. instead of the bad (assuming there is one, of course!)
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      02-24-2008, 11:56 PM   #5
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      02-25-2008, 12:13 AM   #6
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Uh oh, Alpine. I've been reading this forum and e90im is going to tear you up...he's schooled in how Christians think... <looks for e90im>
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      02-25-2008, 12:32 PM   #7
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I don't even know how to respond to that. Thanks for the meaningful post?.... I'm glad he's schooled?

'In how Christians think'? So we're all just one mindless body, right? You're saying that no Christian can think for themself, by implying that we all think the same. Interesting. Well in that case, I'm schooled in how non-Christians think.
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      02-25-2008, 12:32 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
Wow.. that was a waste of time. That was all incredibly biased, just like you say Fox news is incredibly biased. I mean come on, how did science end slavery??

To answer your question, yes, Evolution is just a theory. Every scientist in the world will say its a theory because it cannot be concretely proven, because us humans were not present at the beginning of man. No experiment can take us back to day 1- therefore, in scientific terms, its just a theory.

Let me just ask you this, seeing that you're obviously atheist after that video, and you now knowing that I'm a Christian...

If you're right about there being no God and no afterlife, then neither one of us loses, because it just flat out doesn't matter... we both end up in nothingness. End. Over.

But what if I'm right? Humor me and continue to read... If I'm right, then there IS a God, there IS an afterlife, but only ones who BELIEVE that God sent his Son Jesus and BELIEVE that He was sent to save us from our sins will be allowed into Heaven... and all the others will be cast into Hell for all eternity.

Kind of a big deal, right?
Therefore, simple logic would tell someone that it's much smarter, from a completely non-religious point of view, to accept Christianity than to not accept it because you have nothing to lose if the atheists are indeed correct.

That's always been the way I see atheism. Kind of a waste to just not believe in anything at all... at least pick something, and maybe you'll have a better chance of going to the good place.. instead of the bad (assuming there is one, of course!)
Just "pick something”? So faith is like buying a car, picking out clothing or buying a house? I bet God (if he/she/it exists) is really impressed with that approach.

The way I see it true faith is someplace you arrive after having your mind in gear for a period of time. It is not someplace you set out to go like Disney World, nor is it someplace you simply are, no thought required, because of your parents/friends/culture and general accidents of birth.

In my case the journey has me in athiestville. Motto: "The Devil Made Me Do It is no excuse".
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      02-25-2008, 12:39 PM   #9
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      02-25-2008, 02:33 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
That's always been the way I see atheism. Kind of a waste to just not believe in anything at all... at least pick something, and maybe you'll have a better chance of going to the good place.. instead of the bad (assuming there is one, of course!)
So one should believe in some religion in the event there is truth to it? don't you think "GOD" knows you are doing that? I mean how can you be a true believe if you are just trying to cover all the bases?

Evolution has been proven in many facets of life, viruses evolve, just look at flu and AIDS. Human cells mutate to cause cancer. Lets not get to crazy implying Evolution is theory. With that said Evolution and religion can exist together. There is no region I know of that stats humans can not evolve over time.
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      02-25-2008, 03:00 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
I don't even know how to respond to that. Thanks for the meaningful post?.... I'm glad he's schooled?

'In how Christians think'? So we're all just one mindless body, right? You're saying that no Christian can think for themself, by implying that we all think the same. Interesting. Well in that case, I'm schooled in how non-Christians think.
Alpine, I'm batting for your team, here. The "at least pick something" comment is an argument some Christians like to use...but it truly is not a valid argument when it comes to having faith. It negates your faith, your belief beyond doubt in God. e90im knows most of the ins and outs of arguments that Christians use and he can be (not all of the time) very intelligent (and sincere, believe it or not!) in his arguments/defenses. I was just letting you know, in case you have not read his posts, that he will probably jump on that. I've seen him do it several times, and honestly, he has a point.

That's all man...we cool?

BTW, you live in Nashville? I live north of town and work in Brentwood. Maybe we can hook up sometime...
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      02-25-2008, 03:36 PM   #12
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Here we go again.

To answer your question, yes, Evolution is just a theory. Every scientist in the world will say its a theory because it cannot be concretely proven, because us humans were not present at the beginning of man. No experiment can take us back to day 1- therefore, in scientific terms, its just a theory.

You obviously do NOT understand what scientific theory is. For your education:

In scientific usage, a theory does not mean an unsubstantiated guess or hunch, as it can in everyday speech. A theory is a logically self-consistent model or framework for describing the behavior of a related set of natural or social phenomena. It originates from or is supported by experimental evidence (see scientific method). In this sense, a theory is a systematic and formalized expression of all previous observations, and is predictive, logical, and testable. In principle, scientific theories are always tentative, and subject to corrections or inclusion in a yet wider theory.


Let me just ask you this, seeing that you're obviously atheist after that video, and you now knowing that I'm a Christian...
If you're right about there being no God and no afterlife, then neither one of us loses, because it just flat out doesn't matter... we both end up in nothingness. End. Over.
But what if I'm right? Humor me and continue to read... If I'm right, then there IS a God, there IS an afterlife, but only ones who BELIEVE that God sent his Son Jesus and BELIEVE that He was sent to save us from our sins will be allowed into Heaven... and all the others will be cast into Hell for all eternity.
Kind of a big deal, right?
Therefore, simple logic would tell someone that it's much smarter, from a completely non-religious point of view, to accept Christianity than to not accept it because you have nothing to lose if the atheists are indeed correct.



IíLL KEEP REPEATING THIS UNTIL YOU PEOPLE GET IT. ITíS CALLED PASCALíS WAGER!!!!! Look it up.

Here is what is wrong about it:

1. You must worship a specific God, not A God or you go to hell. See first commandment

2. This sends 1.5 billion Muslim straight to hell if you are right

3. What if Islam is right and youíre wrong (because by using Pascalís wager as an argument you admit that there is a possibility that your belief is incorrect)

4. Omni-intelligent God will see right through your little poker strategy, and heís NOT going to be happy about it


Now you can tell your preacher that he's got to give you folks some better debate material.
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      02-25-2008, 05:20 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im View Post
Here we go again.

IíLL KEEP REPEATING THIS UNTIL YOU PEOPLE GET IT. ITíS CALLED PASCALíS WAGER!!!!! Look it up.

Here is what is wrong about it:

1. You must worship a specific God, not A God or you go to hell. See first commandment

2. This sends 1.5 billion Muslim straight to hell if you are right

3. What if Islam is right and youíre wrong (because by using Pascalís wager as an argument you admit that there is a possibility that your belief is incorrect)

4. Omni-intelligent God will see right through your little poker strategy, and heís NOT going to be happy about it


Now you can tell your preacher that he's got to give you folks some better debate material.
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      02-25-2008, 06:13 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OC 335i View Post
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Really? No, I don't think so.

So I had no idea that the 'pick something' phrase was going to be the big topic of this thread. It was a stupid phrase I used to explain that deciding to not believe in anything doesn't make any logical sense. You all know what I was trying to say, but you think its more fun to be critical in your responses instead of understanding. That's fine, but you all do know what I was saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cleaner View Post
Evolution has been proven in many facets of life, viruses evolve, just look at flu and AIDS. Human cells mutate to cause cancer. Lets not get to crazy implying Evolution is theory. With that said Evolution and religion can exist together. There is no region I know of that stats humans can not evolve over time.
I totally agree with that. It's called adaptation. Things learn to act differently so they can survive.

But to imply that we all came from the primordial murk is absurd. All of nature aside, lets just look at the human body. Study anatomy. No, lets go even smaller. Not even taking into account the big picture. Hormones, neurotransmitters, action potentials, active transport- these are only 4 TINY facets of our body, yet without just one of them, we don't exist. Just one, and we don't work. Our cell's plasma membrane is SO INCREDIBLY specific in just the proteoglycans it chooses to incorporate into its membrane, and into what specific sequence. Sphingomyelins are only allowed on the E face and not the P face. Why? You think that just happened? You think a carbon molecule and a hydrogen molecule figured that out? Please. And that's only the outside part of the cell.

You want to talk science with me, bring it on. I know science. It's what I do, its what I'm constantly studying. I've had nothing but science at my university every semester for the past two years. I've had professors argue for creative design and against creative design. In the end, the professors who argue against creative design can never answer the tough questions. Ok, so lets say the big bang really did happen. Where did that mass come from? Where did the energy come from that was stored up inside of it? Where did the forces come from? Why is gravity so different than electromagnetic force? Why can't we explain where that came from? When you people who put your faith in science can answer those kinds of questions, the questions that my astronomy professor couldn't answer who worked at NASA for 14 years couldn't, then come talk to me.

Yes, things adapt. But why is the idea that those finches that Darwin studied were CREATED to have those specific beaks to eat those specific nuts? Why is it so unreasonable that a loving God created a bird to have a really long skinny beak so it could reach down into a deep flower? Why do we have to say that it evolved? And where are the intermediate species?

And thanks for that little dose of 'science', e90im. I obviously DO understand what scientific. Yeah, it undergoes tests. Fantastic. But what I specifically said was that it cannot be proven, therefore it is NOT FACT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im View Post

IíLL KEEP REPEATING THIS UNTIL YOU PEOPLE GET IT. ITíS CALLED PASCALíS WAGER!!!!! Look it up.

Here is what is wrong about it:

1. You must worship a specific God, not A God or you go to hell. See first commandment

2. This sends 1.5 billion Muslim straight to hell if you are right

3. What if Islam is right and youíre wrong (because by using Pascalís wager as an argument you admit that there is a possibility that your belief is incorrect)

4. Omni-intelligent God will see right through your little poker strategy, and heís NOT going to be happy about it

Now you can tell your preacher that he's got to give you folks some better debate material.
1. Yep, you're right. And since you believe that, you believe the first commandment. Wait.. you believe something in the bible? How can you argue a point in the bible to go against ... the bible?

2. Unfortunately, that's true. It's their choice to believe in Allah and not believe in the Bible, the word of God. Actually, the Qur'an testifies to the integrity of the Christian Scriptures. Anyone reading the Qur'an will be astonished at its clear witness to the validity of the Bible's contents. The following verses serve as examples to this fact:

"We have sent down the Torah, a guide and a light; the prophets judge thereby, as do the rabbis and priests, with what they preserved of God's book. Of this they are witnesses" (Sura al-Ma'ida 5:47).

"We sent down the Book to you verily, confirming what lies in his hands of that Book and watching over it. So judge among them as to what God sent down in this regard" (Sura al-Nisa' 4:105).

"We followed on this with Jesus, Son of Mary, confirming what lay in His hands of the Torah. We brought Him the Gospel, in which is guidance and light, confirming what is in His hands of the Torah, guidance and exhortation for the pious" (Sura al-Ma'ida 5:49).

Then you have this verse in the Qur'an...

"O ye that have believed, believe in God, His apostle, and the Book He sent down to His apostle, and the Book He sent down previously. He who disbelieves in God, His angels, His books, His apostles and the Judgement Day, has strayed far away from truth" (Sura al-Nisa' 4:136).

Hmm.. so the Qur'an says to believe in the Book He sent down.. aka the Bible. So if the Qur'an tells Muslims to believe in the Bible, then they must believe in this verse in the Bible...

"Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'" John 14:6

So the Qur'an tells Muslims to believe in the Bible. Therefore they must also believe in the verse in which Jesus says He is the only way to heaven. Interesting.

3. See #2.

4. Sorry, I don't gamble.

The thing is, e90im, is that you, too, have faith. You may think you don't believe in anything, so that makes you smarter and better than those of us idiot naive believers, but you believe in something, too. You have faith in your belief of nothing. You have chosen to believe that there is nothing to believe in.

You didn't address my specific question to you that I asked last time.
Supposing you're right, we both end up the exact same.
If I'm right, you spend enternity in Hell.
Thoughts?
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      02-25-2008, 07:27 PM   #15
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So I had no idea that the 'pick something' phrase was going to be the big topic of this thread. It was a stupid phrase I used to explain that deciding to not believe in anything doesn't make any logical sense. You all know what I was trying to say, but you think its more fun to be critical in your responses instead of understanding. That's fine, but you all do know what I was saying.

I agree. It was stupid. I thought you were saying what you said. Or was it all allegorical?

But to imply that we all came from the primordial murk is absurd. All of nature aside, lets just look at the human body. Study anatomy. No, lets go even smaller. Not even taking into account the big picture. Hormones, neurotransmitters, action potentials, active transport- these are only 4 TINY facets of our body, yet without just one of them, we don't exist. Just one, and we don't work. Our cell's plasma membrane is SO INCREDIBLY specific in just the proteoglycans it chooses to incorporate into its membrane, and into what specific sequence. Sphingomyelins are only allowed on the E face and not the P face. Why? You think that just happened? You think a carbon molecule and a hydrogen molecule figured that out? Please. And that's only the outside part of the cell.


Divine fallacy. Just because we CURRENTLY can’t explain EVERYTHING, god must have done it??? Who created God?

You want to talk science with me, bring it on. I know science. It's what I do, its what I'm constantly studying. I've had nothing but science at my university every semester for the past two years. I've had professors argue for creative design and against creative design. In the end, the professors who argue against creative design can never answer the tough questions. Ok, so lets say the big bang really did happen. Where did that mass come from? Where did the energy come from that was stored up inside of it? Where did the forces come from? Why is gravity so different than electromagnetic force? Why can't we explain where that came from? When you people who put your faith in science can answer those kinds of questions, the questions that my astronomy professor couldn't answer who worked at NASA for 14 years couldn't, then come talk to me.


You don’t seem to understand a scientific method.
Science is NOT a body of knowledge and formulas, it’s a way of critical thinking

Divine fallacy again. You jump from not understanding something to god in 2 seconds flat. And, we are not talking about Spinoza’s god, the laws of nature creator. You have a specific bizarre fairytale that, because science doesn’t have all the answers NOW, is therefore true.

Religion claims monopoly on truth simply because science doesn’t have all the answers TODAY! It is an ultimate prison of the freethinking mind.


The thing is, e90im, is that you, too, have faith. You may think you don't believe in anything, so that makes you smarter and better than those of us idiot naive believers, but you believe in something, too. You have faith in your belief of nothing. You have chosen to believe that there is nothing to believe in.

My “faith” is based on critical thinking, evidence and science, not a man-made book.

2. Unfortunately, that's true. It's their choice to believe in Allah and not believe in the Bible, the word of God. Actually, the Qur'an testifies to the integrity of the Christian Scriptures. Anyone reading the Qur'an will be astonished at its clear witness to the validity of the Bible's contents.

OK, so both religions have a book. Which one is correct? Are you saying that 1.5 billion Muslim are insane? I'd like to hear what hks786 would say to this...


You didn't address my specific question to you that I asked last time.
Supposing you're right, we both end up the exact same.
If I'm right, you spend enternity in Hell.
Thoughts?


You make it sound like it’s a 50:50 bet. Believers vs. non believers. We have to address Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Hindu, Scientology, and thousands of other religions. Now the pie-chart is a lot more segmented.

So, your odds are a lot less than 50%. You don’t believe in Allah, Buddha, Zeus etc. This makes you a non-believer to those religions. I’m like you except I believe in one less God than you.

You and I might be together in Muslim hell!!! Think of all the virgins that we could’ve partied with.

Let’s say that you are right and Christianity’s got it going on. I still stand by my thinking process and would tell that voyeuristic self involved sadist God of yours to stop his egoistic cruel nonsense.

See, I am NOT afraid like you. Religion is an exploited human need fueled by scare tactics and guilt.
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      02-25-2008, 08:32 PM   #16
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I liked the background music, that was pretty cool!

I think you lump too many of us Christians into a group of scared, unthinking sheep. Our pascal sacrifice was made long ago, on a tree. I do not fear God, he loves me more than my own mother, more than my wife. He puts up with all my bs without a single trace of anger or resent.

MANY of us Christians are very well trained in scientific thinking. Much of that 300 years of science that you claim is the basis of all our improved lives was initially funded and carried out by religious orders. Sometimes the most enlightened men I have heard speak also happen to be men of the cloth.

E90im, "if today you hear his voice, harden not your heart"
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      02-25-2008, 10:21 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im View Post
Letís say that you are right and Christianityís got it going on. I still stand by my thinking process and would tell that voyeuristic self involved sadist God of yours to stop his egoistic cruel nonsense.

See, I am NOT afraid like you. Religion is an exploited human need fueled by scare tactics and guilt.[/b]
Wow... I feel sorry for you. I'm sure you don't care, but I do. I don't see how you can live without having any hope at all. You're living believing that you're one bad car wreck away from total black, or one coronary artery blockage from the end all end all.

I'm not posting to 'convert' you. I'm not posting to call you an idiot or anyone on here anything at all. I try to post with respect, and leave my emotions at the door. I'm simply here to tell you the truth. Now you know. Its your choice. You'll be reminded at the judgment day, and wish you had made a different decision.

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Matthew 7: 13-14
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      02-25-2008, 10:24 PM   #18
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Alpine...I'm right there with you, my friend.
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      02-25-2008, 10:33 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
Wow... I feel sorry for you. I'm sure you don't care, but I do. I don't see how you can live without having any hope at all. You're living believing that you're one bad car wreck away from total black, or one coronary artery blockage from the end all end all.

I'm not posting to 'convert' you. I'm not posting to call you an idiot or anyone on here anything at all. I try to post with respect, and leave my emotions at the door. I'm simply here to tell you the truth. Now you know. Its your choice. You'll be reminded at the judgment day, and wish you had made a different decision.

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Matthew 7: 13-14
You are afraid, indoctrinated, guilt-tripped and delusional. Wake up and smell the roses. This life is awesome.

It's a shame that you will miss most of it because of a fake promise of heaven. ITíS A SCAM DUDE!!!

And whatís so great about haven anyway? I mean, can you really sing with Jesus for gazillion years?

Quoting a 2k year old man-made fairy tale does not constitute evidence any more that quoting Lord of The Rings.
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      02-25-2008, 10:34 PM   #20
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Alpine...I'm right there with you, my friend.
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      02-25-2008, 10:44 PM   #21
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Thanks...

e90im, what drives you to be so passionate about debating the "religious?" I really am curious. You spend a great deal of time refuting what the "religious" say, when you could just let them do their thing. What motivates you to not give up?
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      02-25-2008, 10:50 PM   #22
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Alpine,

You are not the first one to follow the exact same religious debate patern with me.

Your bag of arguments empties quickly. Then you will whip out the good book. Pascal's wager, evolution is just a theory, 1st amendment/1st commandment, and at the end, you jump on your high moral horse, quote a scripture and ride it to sunset.



Good luck to you dude. And I hope you keep up with science.
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