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      02-19-2008, 10:10 PM   #1
grkmec
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M3 w/ DCT vs. Carerra S

Is this one too close to call? What will have a better time around the race track?

Discuss!
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      02-20-2008, 12:44 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by grkmec View Post
Is this one too close to call? What will have a better time around the race track?

Discuss!
Yeah, I think this one's too close to call, it'll be largely dependent on the driver and track layout. In fact, I'll guess that a E92 M3 with M-DCT will probably just edge out a C2S with tip. But a C2S 6sp with a good driver might beat it.
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      02-20-2008, 06:12 AM   #3
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Extensively discussed in other threads. Searcht the forum using google, add site:m3post.com. Works wonders.

Edit: On further thought I must update my comments above. This particular topic has not been discussed so directly but has been discussed indirectly in a very extensive fashion. We have talked extensively about both the straight line and track performance of the 6MT M3 vs. 997S. We have also talked quite a bit about the straight and track benefits likely from M-DCT. With these discussions/predictions in mind a conclusion can be made. The two, M-DCT or not are VERY closely matched.

Last edited by swamp2; 02-20-2008 at 09:40 AM.
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      02-20-2008, 02:24 PM   #4
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Is this one too close to call? What will have a better time around the race track?

Discuss!
With a novice (or even an intermediate) aboard, I'd put serious money on the M3, on pretty much any track.

With hired assassins on board, on a serious track such as the 'Ring, with standard sneakers and pads, a minor advantage to the 997S. That's even with the new gearbox in the M. With the 997S update due shortly, clear advantage 997S.

On the street? Too close to call, but minor advantage to the "new" 997S.

That's an opinion, of course, but defendable.

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      02-20-2008, 02:40 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
With a novice (or even an intermediate) aboard, I'd put serious money on the M3, on pretty much any track.

With hired assassins on board, on a serious track such as the 'Ring, with standard sneakers and pads, a minor advantage to the 997S. That's even with the new gearbox in the M. With the 997S update due shortly, clear advantage 997S.

On the street? Too close to call, but minor advantage to the "new" 997S.

That's an opinion, of course, but defendable.

Bruce
Another advantage that the Porsche has over the M3 is the factory fit power pack option which will no doubt continue with the new engine upgrade. Best estimates put that new engine at 375~380hp and with the power pack that will be something just over 400hp, factor in the weight advantage and the soon to be launched DSG style box and it's night, night, Irene for the M3 in either form.

I might love the M3 but a Porsche it isn't, but then again we aren't paying that money either.

P.S.
If you give the 997 it's awd system then on a track like the ring the M3's chances diminish even more as on such a bumpy track like the ring the normal rwd 997 is too light at the nose and blows what ever confidence a rookie would ever have. If your inexperienced on a track I would recommend the Carrera4 or 4S every single time.
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      02-20-2008, 03:20 PM   #6
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My money is on the M3 with M-DCT but thats just my uneducated opinion. never drove either of them as yet. Good discussion though...I would love to see them pair up against each other.
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      02-20-2008, 08:49 PM   #7
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911: lighter, slightly more nimble and connected.
M3: Faster in staight line, faster on track, more powerful, better balanced, cheaper, more practical and more high tech.

you tell me which is better
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      02-20-2008, 10:07 PM   #8
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New 997S propery appointed, similar to loaded M3, wil run close to 100K. As well, M3 is the car you will want to be driving 90% oft he time. 997S is sweet, however.
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      02-20-2008, 10:43 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagobimmerboy View Post
911: lighter, slightly more nimble and connected.
M3: Faster in staight line, faster on track, more powerful, better balanced, cheaper, more practical and more high tech.

you tell me which is better
you = never driven a porsche
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      02-21-2008, 12:11 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagobimmerboy View Post
911: lighter, slightly more nimble and connected.
M3: Faster in staight line, faster on track, more powerful, better balanced, cheaper, more practical and more high tech.

you tell me which is better
911, easily.

Bruce
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      02-21-2008, 12:40 AM   #11
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you = never driven a porsche
yeah your right, I'd rather turn gay and choke on my tounge then drive let alone buy a Porsche. The only extoics I like are Italian and that beast pictured in my avatar. I respect Porsches, but I dont care for them... now that my mother has one.
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      02-21-2008, 12:43 AM   #12
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911, easily.

Bruce
you all sound like Richard Hammond right now. Continuous hard-on for the 911, wont let anyone tell you different.
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      02-21-2008, 02:03 AM   #13
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lol extremely hard to argue M3 > p-car man.
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      02-21-2008, 02:36 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagobimmerboy View Post
911: lighter, slightly more nimble and connected.
M3: Faster in staight line, faster on track, more powerful, better balanced, cheaper, more practical and more high tech.

you tell me which is better
Faster in straight line... nope, they are about the same

Faster on track... nope, in experienced hands, the 911S is slightly ahead

More powerful... true

Better balanced... that depends whether you are skilled enough to play with 911S' handling characteristics

Cheaper... true

More high tech... nope, not where it matters.
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      02-21-2008, 03:19 AM   #15
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you all sound like Richard Hammond right now. Continuous hard-on for the 911, wont let anyone tell you different.


You are obviously not a true car enthusiast.
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      02-21-2008, 07:53 AM   #16
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:finger:
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagobimmerboy View Post
yeah your right, I'd rather turn gay and choke on my tounge then drive let alone buy a Porsche. The only extoics I like are Italian and that beast pictured in my avatar. I respect Porsches, but I dont care for them... now that my mother has one.
What a jerk off! :finger:
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      02-21-2008, 10:12 AM   #17
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Fastestlaps.com captures lap test data..... their comparison of the E92 M3 (not M-DCT) and 997 Carrera S has times for seven tracks:

http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php...=458be6dc37c65

The 997S is quicker on all of them even though some of the times are very close.
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      02-21-2008, 11:05 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmyz View Post


You are obviously not a true car enthusiast.
Quote:
Originally Posted by devo View Post
:finger:

What a jerk off! :finger:
he'd rather turn gay than drive a porsche. obviously the dude is trying to get out of the closet
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      02-21-2008, 11:13 AM   #19
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The most telling track time of the lot is the wet handling course where the Porsche is a full four seconds quicker. To me this proves more than anything that their 50/50 weight balance is not optimised for a balanced handling in all conditions.

BMW need to rethink their policy of weight balance as in my mind at least it is not right.
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      02-21-2008, 11:28 AM   #20
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The most telling track time of the lot is the wet handling course where the Porsche is a full four seconds quicker. To me this proves more than anything that their 50/50 weight balance is not optimised for a balanced handling in all conditions.

BMW need to rethink their policy of weight balance as in my mind at least it is not right.
Weight balance is not exactly the issue here. The 997 chassis is very benign and forgiving relative to the older models. Dive into a corner at the same speed in the wet in a 993 and you'd have spun off. Albeit, all 911 do have traction advantage over M3s powering out of corners in the wet.

Last edited by dechoong; 02-21-2008 at 11:53 AM.
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      02-21-2008, 11:45 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dechoong View Post
Weight balance is not exactly the issue here. The 997 chassis is very benign and forgiving relative to the older models. Dive into a corner at the same speed in the wet in a 993 and you'd have spun off. Albeit, all 911 do have traction advantage powering out of corners in the wet.
Agreed that it's more benign than previous versions but compared to the likes of an M3 the 997 is still a handful, this is why I recommended the Carrera 4 or 4S as these are much more benign than even the rwd version and much better for an inexperience driver.

The weight balance issue is more to do with the lack of traction that is inherent in the BMW setup, it may benefit dry conditions but at the expense of when things turn damp which leads to an imbalance nature.
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      02-21-2008, 12:13 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wads View Post
Fastestlaps.com captures lap test data..... their comparison of the E92 M3 (not M-DCT) and 997 Carrera S has times for seven tracks:

http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php...=458be6dc37c65

The 997S is quicker on all of them even though some of the times are very close.
Two times out of the list are wrong/irritating:
M3 E92's best Hockennheim time is 1:14,3 also and the 7:59 quote for the 997S has been achieved by Walter Röhrl, thus not comparable. Sportauto has the 997S listed with 8:05.

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
The most telling track time of the lot is the wet handling course where the Porsche is a full four seconds quicker. To me this proves more than anything that their 50/50 weight balance is not optimised for a balanced handling in all conditions.

BMW need to rethink their policy of weight balance as in my mind at least it is not right.
Just as a reminder: M3 achieved these times with Cup+ tires, 997S was on "normal" P Zero tires. So the bad wet handling time is the price you pay for being on par at the Ring and Hockenheim.


Best regards, south
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