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      01-31-2008, 11:24 AM   #67
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dechoong,

Sorry mate I don't see the original review, even where I read your link they used different photos of the RS6, the RS6 in the magazine is Spirit Blue and I had to reading the link through to see that it was basically the same.
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      01-31-2008, 11:29 AM   #68
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Thanks T-Bone for the scans. Now the links were working.

Here's what Sportauto said in the M6 supertest:
The car had Pirelli P Zero Corsa (they mentioned that they cost 1500 €, but are not available as OEM).
There's no indication that the track was wet.

Horst von Saurma was suprised that the Corsa tires weren't good for a better time:
"The reason why the benefit of these tires isn't as much (as expected) is found in the changed driving characteristics. The M6's tendency to understeer (esp. in the EDC Sport setting) is even enforced / more present with the Corsa tires. Furthermore the stability limit is ... smaller (right term?) and less harmonic."
They also reckon that the M6 would have come closer to flat 8 min on the N'ring if it was equipped with the M Drivers Package (which raises top speed to 305 kph). So the top speed was only 259kph.

In short it seems like the Corsa tires didn't do well on the M6 because its driving characteristics (ie the suspension, chassis) weren't adapted to the P Zero Corsa tires.

The Hockenheim time was done with both sets of tires:
1.14,4 with P Zero Corsa
1.15,9 with Conti Sport Contact (M5 on the same tires: 1.16,5)



Best regards, south
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      01-31-2008, 11:45 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
In short it seems like the Corsa tires didn't do well on the M6 because its driving characteristics (ie the suspension, chassis) weren't adapted to the P Zero Corsa tires.

The Hockenheim time was done with both sets of tires:
1.14,4 with P Zero Corsa
1.15,9 with Conti Sport Contact (M5 on the same tires: 1.16,5)



Best regards, south
You see T-Bone, the chassis is the key to making a car perform, not the tyres themselves. You feel that you know a bit because you track your car occasionally but I know what makes a good car handle.

I wonder what will come standard on the RS6, will it be Conti Sport Contacts or Dunlop as the norm with Audis or will it be P Zero Corsa or PS2s. Unless it the latter I doubt even the RS6 will have it's chassis setup for them.

P.S. Notice how little a difference it made over the M5 on the short circuit, this points to the M5 having the better chassis of the two in my opinion.
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      01-31-2008, 11:56 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
You see T-Bone, the chassis is the key to making a car perform, not the tyres themselves. You feel that you know a bit because you track your car occasionally but I know what makes a good car handle.

I wonder what will come standard on the RS6, will it be Conti Sport Contacts or Dunlop as the norm with Audis or will it be P Zero Corsa or PS2s. Unless it the latter I doubt even the RS6 will have it's chassis setup for them.

P.S. Notice how little a difference it made over the M5 on the short circuit, this points to the M5 having the better chassis of the two in my opinion.
Hi footie,

Horsepower aside, it is the matching of the tyres with the chassis. One is not independent of the other if you want to get the best out of the combination. That is the wonder of the E46 M3 CSL.
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      01-31-2008, 01:12 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by dechoong View Post
Hi footie,

Horsepower aside, it is the matching of the tyres with the chassis. One is not independent of the other if you want to get the best out of the combination. That is the wonder of the E46 M3 CSL.
That is what I have been saying for ages here. Putting trick tyres on a car and expecting it's handling to mercilously improve beyond belief is foolish, the chassis has to be designed the get the best out of the tyres, not the other way round.
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      01-31-2008, 02:30 PM   #72
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the chassis has to be designed the get the best out of the tyres, not the other way round.
It goes both ways. Are you aware the Michelin PS2 on the M3 is not identical to the standard ones you find in tyre shops? It is bespoke to the M3.
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      01-31-2008, 02:36 PM   #73
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It goes both ways. Are you aware the Michelin PS2 on the M3 is not identical to the standard ones you find in tyre shops? It is bespoke to the M3.
Almost all manufacturer spec a tyre specially design to them and it's usually to do with comfort, durability and weight requirements.

Correct me if I am wrong but the M3 normally comes with Pilot Sports, maybe when the performance package is ordered BMW do adjustments to the chassis as well as upping the top speed limiter.
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      01-31-2008, 03:14 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
You see T-Bone, the chassis is the key to making a car perform, not the tyres themselves. You feel that you know a bit because you track your car occasionally but I know what makes a good car handle.
Ever hear of "the exception to the rule"? Sounds like not . Tires will almost universally make a large difference no matter if the cars chassis is terrible, mediocre or excellent. Have you never replaced poor or medicore tires on a car and done a before after comparison. Heck I'm sure I track way less than T but anyone knows this.
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      01-31-2008, 04:06 PM   #75
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There is no exception to the rule, tyres on their own do not make a bad car handle great, but if the chassis is tuned to suit said tyres, well then that is a different matter.
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      01-31-2008, 06:34 PM   #76
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Quote:
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There is no exception to the rule, tyres on their own do not make a bad car handle great, but if the chassis is tuned to suit said tyres, well then that is a different matter.
Depends on how you define "handle great". If you mean a substantially improved lap time then they do, if you mean some touch feely, ill-defined subjective measure of handling then no, perhaps not.
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      01-31-2008, 06:35 PM   #77
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Quote:
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There is no exception to the rule, tyres on their own do not make a bad car handle great, but if the chassis is tuned to suit said tyres, well then that is a different matter.
Footie, you are just ignorant here..... I.e. you don't know what you are talking about. Sounds like PS2 + delimit = 8:00 lap.


Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Ever hear of "the exception to the rule"? Sounds like not . Tires will almost universally make a large difference no matter if the cars chassis is terrible, mediocre or excellent. Have you never replaced poor or medicore tires on a car and done a before after comparison. Heck I'm sure I track way less than T but anyone knows this.

Yes, I am a little baffled by this..... I have never heard of R compounds screwing up handling. The only thing that I can think of is the rubber compound was off....there is no way R compounds could understeer more.....crazy.
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      01-31-2008, 06:36 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
Thanks T-Bone for the scans. Now the links were working.

Here's what Sportauto said in the M6 supertest:
The car had Pirelli P Zero Corsa (they mentioned that they cost 1500 , but are not available as OEM).
There's no indication that the track was wet.

Horst von Saurma was suprised that the Corsa tires weren't good for a better time:
"The reason why the benefit of these tires isn't as much (as expected) is found in the changed driving characteristics. The M6's tendency to understeer (esp. in the EDC Sport setting) is even enforced / more present with the Corsa tires. Furthermore the stability limit is ... smaller (right term?) and less harmonic."
They also reckon that the M6 would have come closer to flat 8 min on the N'ring if it was equipped with the M Drivers Package (which raises top speed to 305 kph). So the top speed was only 259kph.

In short it seems like the Corsa tires didn't do well on the M6 because its driving characteristics (ie the suspension, chassis) weren't adapted to the P Zero Corsa tires.

The Hockenheim time was done with both sets of tires:
1.14,4 with P Zero Corsa
1.15,9 with Conti Sport Contact (M5 on the same tires: 1.16,5)



Best regards, south

Thanks South!

unfortunately this article creates more questions..... On Nordscheilfe, the Corsas were bad but at Hockenheim, they were significantly faster....

VERY STRANGE.
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      01-31-2008, 08:49 PM   #79
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There there... You don't even need an airfield...any 3rd gear roll will demostrate Quattro's pathetic failure as a modern drivetrain. Sad really.


Before we bash each other too much here, I would like to hear what South has to say about below.
LOL and you drive around in 3rd gear looking for races lol, u crack me up. and you cant even afford either!!!
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      02-01-2008, 04:09 AM   #80
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Footie, you are just ignorant here..... I.e. you don't know what you are talking about. Sounds like PS2 + delimit = 8:00 lap.
Trust me mate, I know more than I will ever let on.
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      02-01-2008, 09:00 PM   #81
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Trust me mate, I know more than I will ever let on.

You are humbly demonstrating your command of car dynamics & handling with blatantly wrong statements.

Great way to show your knowledge.
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      02-02-2008, 05:51 AM   #82
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Quote:
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You are humbly demonstrating your command of car dynamics & handling with blatantly wrong statements.

Great way to show your knowledge.
T-Bone,

What I have tried to say to you on numerous occasions was that the tyres on their own will never make a car perform amazingly unless the chassis is setup to get the most out of what's on offer from the tyres. Each manufacture even BMW's M-Division choose a setup which is a compromise in dynamics to aid other things like comfort, safety, road conditions etc, etc. The standard spec tyres is what they design the chassis around, meaning on these tyres it has it's best balance, probably feel through the steering, compliment the suspension (the tyre is designed to give in the side wall as part of the suspension of the car), all the things that make is the car it is. When you change the tyres without altering anything else you change the dynamics of the car and not necessarily for the better. The side wall may be stiffer which not only changes the steering feel, turn-in and the complacence in the suspension but changes the whole character of the car and with it the confidence to push the same.

This does not mean that the tyres aren't aiding the cornering ability of the car but changing the levels of grip and what happens under cornering load, breaching it's limits and how the car brakes, most importantly under non-racetrack conditions.

Now look at the lap times between both courses Hockenheim and Nordschleife, the M6 fitted with Corsas with 2.1s quicker than the M5 fitted with Conti Sport Contact around Hockenheim but the Nordschleife a track which is over 4 and a half times longer can only improve it's time of the M5 by a further 2 seconds. Does this not strike you a little strange when you consider that the M6 is roughly 0.8s quicker in the acceleration from 60mph to 130mph of which in the course pf a lap the M6 will have done this on at least 6-7 times, it also can out brake the M5 which again it will do numerous times more. Combined all of these things together with the long straights and short ones, the numerous braking points and in theory the M6 should be ahead WAAAYYYY more than it is.

The reason why this isn't the case on the ring is that the tyres can't perform in the same way as they do on the Hockenheim circuit because unlike it which is a perfectly smooth surface made from a form of tarmac which is totally different to that of the ring and any normal road you will ever drive on, the ring has a bumpy and rough in places surface which unless the car is setup for the tyres correctly will never perform the way they should.
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      02-02-2008, 06:03 PM   #83
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T-Bone,

What I have tried to say to you on numerous occasions was that the tyres on their own will never make a car perform amazingly unless the chassis is setup to get the most out of what's on offer from the tyres. Each manufacture even BMW's M-Division choose a setup which is a compromise in dynamics to aid other things like comfort, safety, road conditions etc, etc. The standard spec tyres is what they design the chassis around, meaning on these tyres it has it's best balance, probably feel through the steering, compliment the suspension (the tyre is designed to give in the side wall as part of the suspension of the car), all the things that make is the car it is. When you change the tyres without altering anything else you change the dynamics of the car and not necessarily for the better. The side wall may be stiffer which not only changes the steering feel, turn-in and the complacence in the suspension but changes the whole character of the car and with it the confidence to push the same.

This does not mean that the tyres aren't aiding the cornering ability of the car but changing the levels of grip and what happens under cornering load, breaching it's limits and how the car brakes, most importantly under non-racetrack conditions.

Now look at the lap times between both courses Hockenheim and Nordschleife, the M6 fitted with Corsas with 2.1s quicker than the M5 fitted with Conti Sport Contact around Hockenheim but the Nordschleife a track which is over 4 and a half times longer can only improve it's time of the M5 by a further 2 seconds. Does this not strike you a little strange when you consider that the M6 is roughly 0.8s quicker in the acceleration from 60mph to 130mph of which in the course pf a lap the M6 will have done this on at least 6-7 times, it also can out brake the M5 which again it will do numerous times more. Combined all of these things together with the long straights and short ones, the numerous braking points and in theory the M6 should be ahead WAAAYYYY more than it is.

The reason why this isn't the case on the ring is that the tyres can't perform in the same way as they do on the Hockenheim circuit because unlike it which is a perfectly smooth surface made from a form of tarmac which is totally different to that of the ring and any normal road you will ever drive on, the ring has a bumpy and rough in places surface which unless the car is setup for the tyres correctly will never perform the way they should.


What is not penetrating your skull is that these times on the M6 are confusing because they don't line with the typical time benefits you would get with R compound tires. I cannot explain why it behaved that way....

I can guarantee you that R compounds make more difference than any other suspension mod.
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      02-02-2008, 08:27 PM   #84
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I can guarantee you that R compounds make more difference than any other suspension mod.
I'll second that, not directly from personal experience but from lots of reading and from many who do know. It is really tough to do an basic suspension mods on a reasonable sporty chassis and get 10-20 seconds on a 8 min course.
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      02-03-2008, 05:12 AM   #85
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I have given you a logical and reasonable explanation why the M6 isn't performing like you believe it should and the only answers you have is that you don't know why it isn't but it should.

It seems like you read what I said but didn't take any of it in, what was it T-Bone said 'What is not penetrating your skull'. Tyres CAN make a world of difference even on a normal car's setup but this ONLY happens on a NORMAL race track because the surface is smooth and without bumps unlike the ring which is bumpy and rough (a typical road surface in other words) and for that you need a readjustment in the suspension setup to make the most from the tyres.

Guys you already has a typical example of a well setup suspension to the tyres in the BMW line up and it's name is the M3CSL.

You guys crack me up with your facts and figures and when something doesn't conform to your expectations then it reasons are simply dismissed.
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      02-03-2008, 03:59 PM   #86
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I have given you a logical and reasonable explanation why the M6 isn't performing like you believe it should and the only answers you have is that you don't know why it isn't but it should.

It seems like you read what I said but didn't take any of it in, what was it T-Bone said 'What is not penetrating your skull'. Tyres CAN make a world of difference even on a normal car's setup but this ONLY happens on a NORMAL race track because the surface is smooth and without bumps unlike the ring which is bumpy and rough (a typical road surface in other words) and for that you need a readjustment in the suspension setup to make the most from the tyres.

Guys you already has a typical example of a well setup suspension to the tyres in the BMW line up and it's name is the M3CSL.

You guys crack me up with your facts and figures and when something doesn't conform to your expectations then it reasons are simply dismissed.

This is not about the M6, it is about some wierd data.....

Try a nice suspension set up on a M3 with snowtires....
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      02-03-2008, 05:40 PM   #87
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Quote:
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This is not about the M6, it is about some wierd data.....

Try a nice suspension set up on a M3 with snowtires....
It's only weird data to those who don't understand why it's happening.

You guys crack me up.
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      02-03-2008, 05:48 PM   #88
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It's only weird data to those who don't understand why it's happening.

You guys crack me up.

This data point is called an outlier.

Get your ass to Kanada and ride bitch with me
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